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You can't impose boundaries on other people, and I should have been clearer. You can only impose boundaries on yourself, as far as what you will and will not tolerate or accept.
Could you give an example?
 
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Discussion starter · #62 ·
So GTDad...at least as far as the parts I quoted....did you at least think Athol's writing was mean spirited at all?

I have said many times now that there are good points in MMSL and I see those points. I simply don't agree that those points should ever be wrapped in such mean, hateful language, and I don't understand defending that mean spirited stuff. I don't know why guys are over looking it. I also do not know of one book that is pushed at women that has anything close to this type of mean language about men. :(
 
Discussion starter · #63 ·
And on my thread.. >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera.../262786-sex-drive-how-do-men-women-compare-whats-your-take-your-experience.html

you were all trying to convince ME just HOW non-monogamous WOMEN REALLY ARE.. just seems to me Athol is agreeing with you all.. it's something to be aware of.. Taken from the link you provided FW >> " Women want sex just as much as men do, and this drive is "not, for the most part, sparked or sustained by emotional intimacy and safety." When it comes to the craving for sexual variety, the research Bergner assembles suggests that women may be "even less well-suited for monogamy than men."

Look Men & women both cheat at alarming rates.. anyone want to disagree ??...

If he is saying "ALL" ... (well none of us should go there.. we're asking to be corrected)..... I know I sure don't fit into "all" when men speak of women, none of us do...

I have not taken the time to read as much as others have here of his stuff.. (just some of his book pretty much)...and I appreciated his breakdown on the ALPHA / BETA years ago on a thread here, I much prefer it over how the Pick up Artist sites damn everything Beta.

What is your point here SA? Nothing I've posted here (which was mostly quotes from MMSL) changes anything I said that I posted of my own words on your other thread. :scratchhead:
 
Could you give an example?
This board is littered with them: the disrespectful treatment suffered at the hands of their spouses, up to and including infidelity.

So much of the correct advice of this forum boils down to stating to that spouse: "this behavior is intolerable, and I have no intention of trying to tolerate it. It stops now, or our relationship is going to change, up to and including divorce."
 
So GTDad...at least as far as the parts I quoted....did you at least think Athol's writing was mean spirited at all?

I have said many times now that there are good points in MMSL and I see those points. I simply don't agree that those points should ever be wrapped in such mean, hateful language, and I don't understand defending that mean spirited stuff. I don't know why guys are over looking it. I also do not know of one book that is pushed at women that has anything close to this type of mean language about men. :(
Well, and let's face it. A woman can get called out as a man-hater here on TAM simply for suggesting that gender stereotypes are false.

But just try and get red-pill called out for its misogynistic ways. Almost like pulling teeth. No, it's just "blunt" because "men need 2x4s to the head" because they are always "too nice."
 
So GTDad...at least as far as the parts I quoted....did you at least think Athol's writing was mean spirited at all?

I have said many times now that there are good points in MMSL and I see those points. I simply don't agree that those points should ever be wrapped in such mean, hateful language, and I don't understand defending that mean spirited stuff. I don't know why guys are over looking it. I also do not know of one book that is pushed at women that has anything close to this type of mean language about men. :(
Sure it was, but I'm not defending Athol so much as I'm defending myself: like Marduk as pointed out, something in his book or blog or whatever got through to me and led to some positive changes. I'll certainly accept the criticism that I had a blind spot to his more hateful moments. It's entirely fair, and I've already said that I can't explain why I missed those moments.
 
"Alpha" is drawn from analysis of herd animal behaviour, and it is about social dominance, being the "leader of the pack". The theory is that because herd animals have a "leader" who gets to father more offspring than the loser betas, that therefore all females (of all species) find "alpha" behaviour sexually attractive, and beta behaviour unattractive.

And then it just turns into a mish-mash of contradictory and ill-thought out ideas about what that might mean in a dating or relationship situation, where clearly, not all guys can be that "alpha" because we are not actually herd animals and do not conduct our mating rituals in the same way.
We're not? Isn't that the underlying reason marketing, advertising, mass media, works so effectively? Why do you think celebrities have the followings they do...key word there...following? Herds by definition follow...
 
Well, and let's face it. A woman can get called out as a man-hater here on TAM simply for suggesting that gender stereotypes are false.
I think you've been called out for attempting to impose a stereotype on men, that all or most men are such-and-such (disloyal, abusive, or what have you). I understand that you disagree with those criticisms.
 
I think you've been called out for attempting to impose a stereotype on men, that all or most men are such-and-such (disloyal, abusive, or what have you). I understand that you disagree with those criticisms.
Yes, I do. Because I haven't actually made those claims. Just reacted (admittedly poorly) to people who have told me that "men are [insert stereotype here]".

I understand that you will probably disagree with this characterization, but the "man-hating" label is thrown around here pretty freely to just about anyone who holds to any feminist principles, and then some.

But this is off-topic. Sorry OP for the thread-jack.
 
This board is littered with them: the disrespectful treatment suffered at the hands of their spouses, up to and including infidelity.

So much of the correct advice of this forum boils down to stating to that spouse: "this behavior is intolerable, and I have no intention of trying to tolerate it. It stops now, or our relationship is going to change, up to and including divorce."
And if she just leaves then?

There is a better way. Seek to understand her and meet her deepest emotional needs. Win her trust.

Just leaving her is okay, though, too. It allows a more suitable man into her life.
 
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Discussion starter · #71 ·
FW I wonder how old the quotes are? People can and do grow, mature, and change views.

I have and perhaps Kay has? You are a blogger (I have been too). Do you ever look back at an old post and think, "wow I have changed. I don't see that the way I saw it then!"?

(I was a fundamentalist uber submissive, homeschooling, SAHM, Quiver Full Wife- you know, like the Duggars? Now I am a feminist, single mom who works outside the home)
I think you should read the whole book and then see if you still think there's anything redeeming in there. As someone else pointed out, he could easily go and pull down the old blog posts that I quoted from if he felt they were not his message any more, yet he hasn't. BTW his one post about porn is in opposition to his book where he doesn't suggest anyone hold back. It was like one moment of maturity hit him later because HE notice that HE himself started treating his wife like crap after watching porn. He wrote that one blog about it, but that's it.
 
And if she just leaves then?

There is a better way. Seek to understand her and meet her deepest emotional needs. Win her trust.

Just leaving her is okay, though, too. It allows a more suitable man into her life.
That's pretty gender-specific. What's your position if it's the woman suffering the "intolerable" behavior?

As an aside, this is kind of fun. I'm usually the guy who makes one or two posts in a thread, then gets distracted and wanders off. :)
 
Discussion starter · #73 ·
This is a quote from Dogbert's thread in mens:

"the problem that women have with the book is they don't understand the audience. It is written to be blunt, to men who don't really understand what men need to be. I am sure it comes off as offensive to them, but really, even if you don't buy any of the evolutionary stuff, the key message is how to change yourself to be a better man."

I'm really tired of this excuse. Please stop telling me (a woman) what my problem is with this book. The key message is whatever someone takes from the book. I can read it as well as anyone else and the key message I get is that Athol feels you must put women down in order to lift yourself up.

That's called bullying.
 
I think any book that pits spouse against spouse, and promotes an adversarial approach to relationships is garbage. One that spews false information about biology and behavior is garbage. One that takes advantage of men who are hurting and foments hurt into anger and hatred is garbage just intended to make money, not help people.

There's no reason that "get fit and don't be a doormat" needs to be wrapped in false information and hate speech except that it makes money for the author by appealing to certain vulnerable men.

There are better books that don't make men feel like women are wired to f*ck them over no matter what, and doesn't require men to work against their women. TAM should be recommending those instead.
 
We're not? Isn't that the underlying reason marketing, advertising, mass media, works so effectively? Why do you think celebrities have the followings they do...key word there...following? Herds by definition follow...
Well, we are social animals, to be sure. And in some ways our behaviour can be almost as predictable as herds.

But we're also much more unpredictable.

Plus evo-psych draws from very different animal behaviours (chimps, chickens, dogs, whatever) in a completely ad hoc way to support its gender stereotypes and biases, completely overlooking the fact that even in the animal world those stereotypes don't hold. In some species, for example, it is a female who will be the alpha of the herd ...
 
I can read it as well as anyone else and the key message I get is that Athol feels you must put women down in order to lift yourself up.

That's called bullying.
Yep. And it might work for a little while but how long will a woman put up with the abuse? It depends on the woman I suppose.

In any case, I like the guy from "Marriage Builders" his work in rooted in science and compassion and will work in the long run.
 
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GDdat, you really have no problem with those quoted paragraphs? have your read them or you just having an abstract discussion on apha/betea?
 
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In any case, I like the guy from "Marriage Builders" his work in rooted in science and compassion and will work in the long run.
It's a good example of how no relationship book should be taken as Gospel Truth to the exclusion of all other thought, however. While I agree that his work is very good, the Marriage Builders site is full of doctrinaire zealots. And I think both they and the people they attempt to "help" have suffered for it.

Same can be said for the MMSL board, I imagine.

That's why this place is pretty cool.
 
Discussion starter · #79 ·
OK. I hate to admit this but in this section he does have a point. I'm 46 but still get my period like clockwork and I have an intuitive sense when I'm ovulating. It's during that time when my interest in contacting the OM (who is ten years younger than me and a very hot bad boy type) spikes. My sexual appetite increases and my body is giving me cues my mind needs to control.

However, this doesn't dismiss the other hateful crap that he perpetuates.
Brigit...I think it is better if we women talk about our feelings around ovulation than letting a man try to describe us as cheating wh*res.

I know exactly when I'm ovulating, because I'm horny as hell, too.

However, in general terms, there's no time some men are not horny as hell.

Sex drive is what it is. There's no reason to try to paint us as wicked cheating wh*res when men are subject to the same strong sex drive most of the month...and I don't agree men should be painted as cheating wh*res either.

The only way we are going to see equality in these issues is if we can all simply speak openly and truthfully about our glorious sex drives and stop making it about cheating and meanness.
 
It's a good example of how no relationship book should be taken as Gospel Truth to the exclusion of all other thought, however. While I agree that his work is very good, the Marriage Builders site is full of doctrinaire zealots. And I think both they and the people they attempt to "help" have suffered for it.

Same can be said for the MMSL board, I imagine.

That's why this place is pretty cool.
Can you give me an example of what you don't like about "Marriage Buidlers?"
 
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