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GDdat, you really have no problem with those quoted paragraphs? have your read them or you just having an abstract discussion on apha/betea?
I've already told FW that those passages are terrible, a page or two ago on this thread.

But one of my points is that I'm not clear that this Red Pill business can be defined by what Athol says about it.
 
Red pillers like to claim that their philosophy is all based on defining masculinity, and what it means to be a man worthy of respect. If that were true, I'd have no issues with it. The problem is that they define masculinity in relation to femininity. Here's quote from a poster on another forum who nails it.

These guys are hung up on women as a figure that is getting in the way of what they want--but they're not clear about what it is that they want. When they can understand what manliness actually is, then they can begin to understand how feminism benefits men. [snip]

At the end of the day it just seems like these guys are mad at themselves and trying to rationalize their lack of success by blaming the "other". I think empathy can come after first realizing what is wrong with the individual.
 
Brigit...I think it is better if we women talk about our feelings around ovulation than letting a man try to describe us as cheating wh*res.

I know exactly when I'm ovulating, because I'm horny as hell, too.

However, in general terms, there's no time some men are not horny as hell.

Sex drive is what it is. There's no reason to try to paint us as wicked cheating wh*res when men are subject to the same strong sex drive most of the month...and I don't agree men should be painted as cheating wh*res either.

The only way we are going to see equality in these issues is if we can all simply speak openly and truthfully about our glorious sex drives and stop making it about cheating and meanness.
Those ARE my feelings:

"It's during that time when my interest in contacting the OM (who is ten years younger than me and a very hot bad boy type) spikes. My sexual appetite increases and my body is giving me cues my mind needs to control."


I don't agree with his sex ranking stuff. It's ridiculous. But some of the stuff he says makes sense to me and I'll admit to it even though the guy creeps me out.
 
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The book or the board? I don't have a problem with the book.
Actually, the videos that are posted on his site. "His Needs Her Needs." The ones I saw were very nice.
 
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Discussion starter · #86 ·
Honey you don't have to "admit" to it...I've been saying that there are good points in his book and on the blog.

A lot of people say the same.

A lot of women WANT their man to man up and be more agressive...and MMSL sounds like the right book for that on the surface.

But just because someone can make some good points (that he got from OTHER authors) doesn't mean he isn't also using that information in a dangerous way, meanwhile packaging it all nicely so that people barely notice the sh*t sandwich they are eating.

The point of this post was simply to show Dogbert some of the more offensive crap in the book and blog.

Nothing we say or do here is going to stop MMSL from selling thousands more copies every month and gaining more and more readership.

I'm just speaking out about the mean spirited stuff. I honestly wish it wasn't in there, and there was more of the good stuff. But the book Models by Mark Manson is basically that.
 
Can you give me an example of what you don't like about "Marriage Buidlers?"
Brigit, personally I couldn't stomach the whole Plan A, Plan B action for dealing with infidelity. I was told to negotiate with a serial cheater to stop contact and nice him back into the marriage.
Please!
Doesn't work.
Some of the relationship advice may be helpful but that aspect of MB I found intolerable.
 
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It's a good example of how no relationship book should be taken as Gospel Truth to the exclusion of all other thought, however. While I agree that his work is very good, the Marriage Builders site is full of doctrinaire zealots. And I think both they and the people they attempt to "help" have suffered for it.

Same can be said for the MMSL board, I imagine.

That's why this place is pretty cool.
Same can be said for the NMMNG board. Loved the book and it helped me a lot, but the board is chock full of a-holes.

Any board that won't tolerate conflicting viewpoints isn't worth the time.
 
JLD, the thread got me to surfing over there a bit. Here is a post that YOU could have written (and I happen to agree with you about husbands having a great deal of power) Captain and First Officer When The Marriage is Slamming Into Icebergs | Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life

If you or I say it, we get ridiculed. But if demi-god Kay says it, they lap it up unquestioningly :rofl:

And here is one where he flat out says that as long as the H is getting sex he thinks the M is just fine and all his W's talk is white noise that he tunes out. Among his suggestions: CUT OFF THE SEX! SEPARATE BEDROOMS. Can you just imagine the flak if a woman ever suggested that on TAM? TBH I get a kick out of Kay saying it :D

Here's his suggestions How To Fair Warning a Husband That Doesn’t Listen (Before Things Are Too Late To Fix) | Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life :

.
Sounds like good advice to me. Where I probably differ from JLD is that the applicability is more broad across gender lines.
 
And here is one where he flat out says that as long as the H is getting sex he thinks the M is just fine and all his W's talk is white noise that he tunes out. Among his suggestions: CUT OFF THE SEX! SEPARATE BEDROOMS. Can you just imagine the flak if a woman ever suggested that on TAM? TBH I get a kick out of Kay saying it :D

Here's his suggestions Some suggestions….

(1) Separate the bedrooms.

(2) Remove your wedding rings.

(3) Ask him to move out.

(4) Tell him that you are not in love with him anymore.

(5) Lock him 100% out of your online presence and communication devices.

(6) Have either his father or your father tell him you’re on the verge of leaving him. (Authority figure + not a “white noise” female talking)

(7) Tell him you are starting to consider sex with other men.

(8) ...

(9) Start running your own MAP and immediately hitting the gym and looking better.

(10) Investigate your state’s divorce / alimony / child support laws, and figure out the math on what he’d be likely to have to pay, based on a 50/50 custody agreement and non-combative parting of the ways. Give him the number​

.
Great find Blonde. All I can see is WOW!

I can imagine the bashing we'd get for suggestion any of those tidbits but especially #7.
 
Great find Blonde. All I can see is WOW!

I can imagine the bashing we'd get for suggestion any of those tidbits but especially #7.
Well, yeah. I think I've railed against that one in the past...

But the point I made to JLD holds true, at least in general: don't tolerate the intolerable.
 
Comparing non-monogamy to infidelity is like comparing apples to oranges. Non-monogamy is a relationship designation: forming relationship/love bonds with more than one person. Infidelity involves lies, deceit, and treachery, all of which are wrong and hurtful to others. There can be infidelity in a non-monogamous relationship but choosing to enter into a non-monogamous relationship does not make it cheating.

What Athol is implying in his book is that ALL women are natural born cheaters.... not non-monogamous. He states clearly in his book that we're born with a biologically programmed need to cheat in order to obtain the best Alpha genes for our babies. Meanwhile, he also claims that we are born with an instinctual-like need to find a Beta male we can cuckold into raising our alpha babies. It's the equivalent of me saying that ALL men are natural born cheaters because they have a biological need to "spread his seed'. This is INSANE logic. We are much more evolved than our caveman predecessors.
I guess I didn't get THIS from the book.. I will agree we all have fantasies.. and if the man isn't cutting it at home.. we may look over the fence..what is so wrong with admitting this.. it happens all the damn time...

And Elegirl is very quick to point out that men cheat even in GOOD marriages... post #47

Well, a smart woman knows that this is just nonsense. If a guy is going to cheat none of that matters. Men with a good sex life at home cheat all the time.
Now.. are men & women EQUAL in their non-monogamous ways or are WOMEN BETTER ??? So women NEVER cheat on their loving giving Protector Provider husbands then ...again...many here went to great lengths to prove to me that men & women ARE JUST THE SAME... (Frankly I think MEN cheat more ...because of their higher sex drive but I was told I am wrong)... so I don't see anything wrong with what I posted to prove my point..

What is your point here SA? Nothing I've posted here (which was mostly quotes from MMSL) changes anything I said that I posted of my own words on your other thread. :scratchhead:
see above.


I have said many times now that there are good points in MMSL and I see those points. I simply don't agree that those points should ever be wrapped in such mean, hateful language, and I don't understand defending that mean spirited stuff.
this is a 1st for me.. I have not read a post by you yet that would give the slightest pass to something Athol has said.. I must have missed them ALL..

Here is another quotes that says about the same thing......

"It is extremely politically incorrect to say so, but all women have a component of slvt in their makeup. The trick is not to fear it, seek to sanction it, or flee it, but to adapt to the presence of the slvt in your woman and harness it for your mutual enjoyment. But if you don't' pay her active attention to account for her slvt influence, you might find that it gets up to all sorts of mischief."
is it possible this could be taken in the light of (which is a good thing)... "Every man wants a lady in the streets but a SLvt in the bedroom" (speaking of their wives)...that the husband needs to seek the slvt out in her...because it IS there (but again that is not a bad thing within marriage but a glorious thing!).... maybe we should ask Athol what his intent really was..
 
Athol Kay always struck me as someone who never escaped the gravitational pull of PUA and redirected self-loathing and insecurity.

I think there are some useful kernels of information in his writings and in the Red Pill ideology, but you have to sift through a lot of post-teenager rejection angst and misogyny to get to it. Which is quite frankly exhausting.

The whole "relationships as an adversarial competition in a zero sum game" premise is pretty much where it starts to jump the shark for me.

Faithful Wife; said:
A lot of women WANT their man to man up and be more agressive...and MMSL sounds like the right book for that on the surface.
And this is where the Red Pill stuff actually helped me.

I am a child of the 80s-90s who grew up surrounded by progressive liberals and feminists who literally taught me throughout grade school and high school that aggressive, masculine men were boorish and that the emotionally available, metro-sexual, "nice guys" were what women wanted.

And like many men I found that despite what I was told, the women in my spheres of experience targeted the masculine and boorish guys for "fun" while they came to me for help with their course work.

Most of the advice I ever received amounted to 1) be yourself, 2) give her what she wants, 3) do not push or be aggressive.

Amazingly enough that stuff does not work all that well for guys like me.

It was actually my mother who hinted and at times directly told me to grow a pair and act more masculine if I wanted attention and success…the Red Pill stuff created a forum for me to get reinforcement for that message.

The issue is that so many of these guys are just so angry that they never leave that place of failure and self-loathing.

Athol Kay is a great example of that.
 
Thats the thing. The MMSLP message could be a very good empowering message for The Right Man. But for other men, it is like matches to tinder.

A man like my H would be able to read it, take the good and leave the stupid. But a man like Blinde's H... Waaaaay too dangerous. This kind of message would take a selfish stupid man and make him a rapey Neanderthal all the while thinking he was doing it right.
Something that occurs to me is that maybe the ire is not directed so much at Athol as much as the dumbasses who might not filter what he has to say. Something like "we need to protect the dumbasses from this sort of thing!"

But despite all of the warnings we put on lawnmowers and ladders, you can't save dumbasses from themselves. I understand the concerns FW has expressed about protecting women from the dumbasses, though.
 
Discussion starter · #95 ·
Blonde, the daughters are already teenagers and no he didn't change the book.

SA, It is pretty clear that you just don't get me and therefore, I don't know why you continue to try. You can ignore my posts rather than misrepresenting me all the time and I would greatly appreciate that, thanks.
 
I skimmed this article >> How To Fair Warning a Husband That Doesn’t Listen (Before Things Are Too Late To Fix) | Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life

Now I am not at bit crazy about what he spoke here.. it's not the reality of how MY HUSBAND IS ....he doesn't fit any of those things.. but are there men who just want Puzzy...and find their wives a consistent chatterbox.. yeah..I've seen posts here speaking just that...."in one ear & out the other"....(gotta feel bad for those wives)

JLD, the thread got me to surfing over there a bit. Here is a post that YOU could have written (and I happen to agree with you about husbands having a great deal of power) Captain and First Officer When The Marriage is Slamming Into Icebergs | Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life

If you or I say it, we get ridiculed. But if demi-god Kay says it, they lap it up unquestioningly :rofl:

And here is one where he flat out says that as long as the H is getting sex he thinks the M is just fine and all his W's talk is white noise that he tunes out. Among his suggestions: CUT OFF THE SEX! SEPARATE BEDROOMS. Can you just imagine the flak if a woman ever suggested that on TAM? TBH I get a kick out of Kay saying it :D
So it's something you agree with .. his suggestions to the woman.. I don't have a problem with them at all personally.. And it is very important for our men to listen to us.. that's very darn frustrating if they don't ! It makes us feel less loved and just "USED".
 
Sounds like good advice to me. Where I probably differ from JLD is that the applicability is more broad across gender lines.
Men and woman are different IME

JLD had a thread about Gottman recently (researcher- studies marriages in the laboratory). He finds gender differences (similar to Kay's iceberg post Captain and First Officer When The Marriage is Slamming Into Icebergs | Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life).
Women are naturally submissive to their H's and willing to receive their H's influence- even in troubled marriages.

^^Totally lines up with my personal experience

Gottman talks about how important it is for H to receive influence from W. If H is tuning her out like she is white noise, the M is at high risk for D:

This observation led me to formulate the hypothesis that marriages work to the extent that men accept influence from, share power with women. Next I applied this to a longitudinal study of 130 nonviolent newlywed couples and found that, amazingly, those in which the men who did not accept influence from their wives wound up divorced. The prediction rate was very good, 80% accuracy. and it did not work the other way around: Most wives accepted influence from their husbands, and the acceptance predicted nothing.
(Gottman, John “The Marriage Clinic” page 52 )​
 
Well, yeah. I think I've railed against that one in the past...

But the point I made to JLD holds true, at least in general: don't tolerate the intolerable.
I agree with you GTdad and appreciate that you're a strong voice against that sort of advice with both women AND men (no double standard).

Kay does advise #7 in MMSLP and I've also seen it advised here....a lot. Put a wife on notice that she can and will be replaced whenever the sex starts to decline. It's part of the almighty dread game he promotes.

The biggest issue with dread game is that the only reason the wife is having sex with her spouse is out of fear of loss. Talk about making a wife feeling like a bunch of holes to be used for his gratification.
 
Men and woman are different IME

JLD had a thread about Gottman recently (researcher- studies marriages in the laboratory). He finds gender differences (similar to Kay's iceberg post Captain and First Officer When The Marriage is Slamming Into Icebergs | Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life).
Women are naturally submissive to their H's and willing to receive their H's influence- even in troubled marriages.

^^Totally lines up with my personal experience

Gottman talks about how important it is for H to receive influence from W. If H is tuning her out like she is white noise, the M is at high risk for D:

This observation led me to formulate the hypothesis that marriages work to the extent that men accept influence from, share power with women. Next I applied this to a longitudinal study of 130 nonviolent newlywed couples and found that, amazingly, those in which the men who did not accept influence from their wives wound up divorced. The prediction rate was very good, 80% accuracy. and it did not work the other way around: Most wives accepted influence from their husbands, and the acceptance predicted nothing.
(Gottman, John “The Marriage Clinic” page 52 )​
Don't disagree. I think it's entirely possible that I accepted too much influence from my wife, or perhaps more accurately misinterpreted that influence and missed the mark in trying to help her find happiness.

The problem we have now is that my wife says she wants me to set the pace in our relationship, to exercise a leadership role, but has trouble accepting that leadership. We're still navigating our comfort levels and pushing those levels to the extent we can. Married for 31 years and we're still working to figure all of this stuff out.
 
The biggest issue with dread game is that the only reason the wife is having sex with her spouse is out of fear of loss. Talk about making a wife feeling like a bunch of holes to be used for his gratification.
Yep. And that's why his stuff is ridiculous. He throws some interesting and logical information into his blog which gives it a sense of legitimacy.

But-

Putting a woman "on notice that she can be replaced at anytime" isn't love. It's abuse. Also, it's a dangerous game to play. You get a fragile woman at the wrong time and instill fear, she might snap. Maybe she'll hurt herself...maybe she'll hurt you. Not a good game.
 
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