[Robert22205]

In addition to the finances of living with her through the 'stress' of residency....there's the additional over the top emotional support and encouragement you provided her every day. She needed an unusual amount of emotional support and encouragement from you ...and you were there for her. Tough to assign a $ amount but still very valuable. And something your lawyer can use in negotiations as an appeal to her conscience or sense of fairness.

 

[Wolfman1968]

What's the word from the attorney, FloridaGuy?

 

[Robert22205]

I'm particularly interested in your situation because my son is married to an eye surgeon just completing her residency. And they are moving to a small very isolated community where she can maximize her income. He's an accountant and there's really nothing for him in this move ....he basically will have to change careers and start over. He's always complained about her going off on a co residents' night out where they sit around a table, drink (no food) and talk medicine. They drink enough to get a buzz but not drunk. He's gone along at times and it's boring talk for an outsider. It's difficult to talk with the doctors around you because their life is entirely their work/residency ....so they smile and pretend to be interested in your work or personal life but you soon realize it's a one sided conversation.

In addition, doctors are used to functioning on little sleep so the night out for drinks is during the week (starts late 10-11) and goes into the early hours. My son doesn't often go along because they start late in the evening and close the bar down (and he has to up at 7am).

Finally, they work together/bond under lots of stress and work irregular hours which seems to create a very tempting situation for an EA leading to a PA. And she also seems to have a huge sense of entitlement ...which I understand because she saves lives.

In hind sight, were there any early warning signs or action you could have taken early on to discourage cheating? Would open transparent access to her phone and social media accounts, email and text have helped? Or just hope for the best but prepare for the worst using a prenup with a fidelity clause?
Any advice is welcome.

 

[FloridaGuy123]

What's the word from the attorney, FloridaGuy?

I was satisfied - thought he was a good choice.

Got an overview of the process. He understood and was able to articulate credible arguments to bolster my claim for support, but he said judges view things differently, so I could get a shorter term rehabilitative sum or something as long as the marriage itself.

Some discussion about assets, income, division thereof and so on

Mediation is required. He shared some of the arguments against me and we talked through that. He said that the evidence I have for the affair is likely admissible, but suggested I get more. Working on that. Warned me that because of our high income, my wife, once she hires a lawyer, may be encouraged by her lawyer to drag on the process and make it less pleasant. (more billables, etc)

I had actually planned to confront my wife soon, and he said hold off on that, see if she comes clean, etc. So I am in a holding and evidence gathering mode. No big surprises overall.

Just trying to be patient now.

 

[Lostinthought61]

what about hiring a PI?

 

[Kamstel]

Good for you. Glad you like the lawyer.

Have you hired a PI to gather more evidence?

 

[FloridaGuy123]

I'm particularly interested in your situation because my son is married to an eye surgeon just completing her residency. And they are moving to a small very isolated community where she can maximize her income. He's an accountant and there's really nothing for him in this move ....he basically will have to change careers and start over.

This can be unpleasant. I started an online biz, joined a cool gym, made some friends and started reading more. You make of it what you can, and with a surgeon's income, friends and family are a flight away. Or they can visit him, because he'll have a nice house. A lot of times, happiness is a choice. Part of our strategy was a beach house in an area we like.

Your son's wife may come to miss her classmates and have a hard time making friends in the new (small) place. My wife's friends here are pretty meh. So your son may want to be ready for his wife to lament her lack of friends or to hang out with less-than-fantastic people. She may come to miss her classmates.

He's always complained about her going off on a co residents' night out where they sit around a table, drink (no food) and talk medicine. They drink enough to get a buzz but not drunk. He's gone along at times and it's boring talk for an outsider.

This can be tough. I tried to use it as a chance to learn about the body. I would ask medical questions or ask them about what they did in the operating room. When things were better with my wife, we had a lot of conversations like this and I always enjoyed it. But either way, she's entitled to her time with friends and this can be an important thing for residents. It's a hard life and those bonds are genuine and usually not sexual. My wife and her residency classmates still have a group text and it's been years.

It's difficult to talk with the doctors around you because their life is entirely their work/residency ....so they smile and pretend to be interested in your work or personal life but you soon realize it's a one sided conversation.

I know this sounds awfully pretentious, but I am well-above-average athletic and attractive. Even at 39 I have no gray hair, nearly all the hair I had at 19, and nice blue eyes that are six feet off the ground when I'm standing up. Her friends and colleagues - male and female - often wanted to talk to me and hear about what I was up to. I never felt shut out of the conversations. Social stuff has always been easy for me though, and I always felt like the other docs wanted to talk to me because I was an outsider and they wanted to know what the "outside world" was like. Maybe they just thought I was pretty. Either way this was not my issue.

In addition, doctors are used to functioning on little sleep so the night out for drinks is during the week (starts late 10-11) and goes into the early hours. My son doesn't often go along because they start late in the evening and close the bar down (and he has to up at 7am).

This may change. My wife and I now love going to bed early. When things were better, we'd be in bed by 9 and proud of it.

Finally, they work together/bond under lots of stress and work irregular hours which seems to create a very tempting situation for an EA leading to a PA. And she also seems to have a huge sense of entitlement ...which I understand because she saves lives.

Surgeons think they're special. They are...at work. Outside of work they're just awkward nerds who prefer books to people. If the entitlement continues outside of work, it's possibly a problem. Life has a way of humbling the entitled; you may fix eyes or transplant organs, but when you're in line at the supermarket, no one gives a ****. Most of life - outside the home, anyway - is the equivalent of standing in line at the supermarket, not being the hero in the OR. How she copes with the inevitable humbling is the issue. If she's healthy, she'll embrace books and travel and spending time with your son and finding ways to grow as a person and wife. If she's unhealthy, it'll be some type of self-medicating. He can be supportive but she has to permit him to do so.

In hind sight, were there any early warning signs or action you could have taken early on to discourage cheating? Would open transparent access to her phone and social media accounts, email and text have helped? Or just hope for the best but prepare for the worst using a prenup with a fidelity clause?
Any advice is welcome.

You can't change what a person is. I am routinely approached by women. Was at lunch the other day and some 30ish woman dropped off her phone number at my table and walked away. A month ago I was on the road and a woman started a conversation with me at a restaurant, told me where she was staying and said it was her last night in town. As a single guy I would have slept with each of them. As a married guy I won't. I'm not perfect, but I'm not a cheater. You can't change what a person is.

The only red flag is that her parents had a bad marriage. Her Dad had a long term affair and is a very selfish guy. Her Mom is a nice lady. My wife spends a lot of time lamenting what a **** her dad is/was, and now goes out and does the exact same thing.

But no, there were no other red flags.

 

[notmyrealname4]

@FloridaGuy123

Sorry you are going through this demoralizing experience.

But I sure hope your attorney can sock it to her in some way, for your benefit.

I have an especial loathing for people who use their partner to put them through school; then dump them when their career starts to take off.

It used to mostly be the behavior of successful men. But now we see women doing the same thing. Yuck.

Of course you don't want to be living on alimony the rest of your life; but you should get *some* kind of remuneration.

Best of luck going forward in general, and with your own career.

 

[Robert22205]

I can't imagine the emotions you're feeling living with her day to day. It must be incredibly frustrating as well as tempting to confront her.
At this point you playing a part in a movie.

Is there any change in her level of interest towards you .... same hugs, smiles, laugh and eye contact.
How have conversations with her changed? Are you still discussing the future or date night. Is it your sense she's thinking about exiting the marriage or she enjoys being married but wants something extra?

Does your wife dress stylishly? Does she make heads turn when she walks into Starbucks? Did she have a active social/dating experience in HS and College and Med School? Could she be trying to catch up on what she thinks she missed in life due to all her studying and training?

 

[FloridaGuy123]

I can't imagine the emotions you're feeling living with her day to day. It must be incredibly frustrating as well as tempting to confront her.
At this point you playing a part in a movie.

Several parts. Husband. Detective. Dog parent. In-law. Yeah, it's a lot to carry around and with the installation of voice recorders, I suspect the load is going to get heavier. It hurts a lot but I often recall that a lot of dead people would like to be alive with these problems. I'm not interested in self pity. This is life. Let's deal.

Is there any change in her level of interest towards you .... same hugs, smiles, laugh and eye contact.
How have conversations with her changed? Are you still discussing the future or date night. Is it your sense she's thinking about exiting the marriage or she enjoys being married but wants something extra?

Affection etc for me is way down. She is surely thinking of exiting the marriage. I don't believe this is a strategic decision but a knee-jerk. If she was cheating with a Nobel Prize winning physician or high powered financial guy or entertainer, it would be loathsome but it would also on some level be comprehensible. She is cheating with a schlump. Maybe she wants to be the big dog and the boss in the relationship. I treat her as an equal.

Does your wife dress stylishly? Does she make heads turn when she walks into Starbucks?

She's an awkward nerd. Scrubs most days, professional dress (Ann Taylor, not Saks) on office days. On her time it's very casual. She's never BEEN to a Neiman Marcus, doesn't know what Barney's is and owns nothing fancy. Her awkward nerdiness in a sea of glamorous Miami ho's is what I fell for and what I still love.

Did she have a active social/dating experience in HS and College and Med School?

I didn't know her then but I am guessing no. The temperament that produces a surgeon rarely overlaps with the characteristics that produce a Homecoming Queen.

Could she be trying to catch up on what she thinks she missed in life due to all her studying and training?

It's distinctly possible. But she ended up with a loving and devoted husband who is also (in her words) the best looking guy she ever dated. So if she wants to go ride the **** Carousel, that's a strange decision for a woman who focused so much on one goal. However, I obviously do not know what makes her tick as well as I thought I did.

One day at a time.

 

[BluesPower]

I have to say that you are doing so great.

I know you are hurting, but you are doing the right thing.

Just keep it up...

 

[Robert22205]

How does a surgeon get involved with a loser (is he at least physically attractive)? I admire your strength and determination to press forward.
None of this is your fault in any way...it's strictly on her. You are not alone.

 

[Rubix Cubed]

I have to say that you are doing so great.

I know you are hurting, but you are doing the right thing.

Just keep it up...

I second this. You have an amazing amount of clarity and insight. Stay the course and you will come out the other side just fine.

 

[jlg07]

@FloridaGuy123, you say "Proof has arrived. Not evidence, proof."
Curious turn of phrase there -- what "proof" did you get that is not evidence? How did you find out about her cheating and how did you get this definitive "proof"?

 

[FloridaGuy123]

How does a surgeon get involved with a loser (is he at least physically attractive)? I admire your strength and determination to press forward.
None of this is your fault in any way...it's strictly on her. You are not alone.

No, he's not. He truly is not. Joe Average in appearance, education and success. She is feeding a demon in her head; it's a tough place to be for her. It's rough for me too, but I'm not feeding a demon. I'm breathing clear air. It sucks right now, but as you said, I didn't wreck the marriage.

Gotta press forward. If I fight, I will be pressed forward anyway, and just be tired.

 

[farsidejunky]

I think you know this, but her choice in AP is a reflection of how she sees herself.

The broken nature of waywards is why so many affair down.

They subconsciously pursue that which they believe they deserve.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

[Robert22205]

Is the AP married? Do you have a time line or plan for serving her with a notice of divorce and the confrontation? Will you show her your proof during the confrontation? Not that the proof matters at that point.

Have you considered first serving the divorce paperwork at her office (or while she’s with her ‘friends’), and then have the follow up confrontation afterward (after she’s been officially exposed)?

Since you have advance notice, will your attorney draw up a short 1 page “financial settlement” - that she can sign immediately as part of the confrontation?
Her incentive is guilt and possibly a desire to protect her reputation (if you also agree to nondisclosure).

Sad she’s following in her father’s footsteps. Maybe she’d prefer that her mother not learn of her adultery since your wife’s behavior shows a lack of empathy for her mother’s pain. Whatever her demon is it's not your fault nor your job to tolerate or attempt to fix....especially since there are no children impacted by her behavior. You can't control her behavior - just your own. Stay strong and stick to your plan.

 

[FloridaGuy123]

I think you know this, but her choice in AP is a reflection of how she sees herself.

The broken nature of waywards is why so many affair down.

They subconsciously pursue that which they believe they deserve.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

She has a good friend from college who we see several times a year. It's probably her oldest and closest friend. Let's call her Sarah. She recently lamented to me that she hasn't talked to Sarah in a while, and they used to talk all the time.

When you're in the midst of this, when your marriage is wobbly, when you're not sure what to do...you tend to blame yourself. This admission that she's lost touch with an old and close friend is additional evidence that it is not I who has changed.

It doesn't make me any happier. It still sucks elephant-sized balls. But it helps with perspective. Having fulfilled her career goal, she is now getting to work on personal goals, or as you said, pursuing what she thinks she deserves. The toughest part of all this is knowing there is nothing I can do. She is simply making her choices.

 

[FloridaGuy123]

Is the AP married? Do you have a time line or plan for serving her with a notice of divorce and the confrontation? Will you show her your proof during the confrontation? Not that the proof matters at that point.

Have you considered first serving the divorce paperwork at her office (or while she’s with her ‘friends’), and then have the follow up confrontation afterward (after she’s been officially exposed)?

Since you have advance notice, will your attorney draw up a short 1 page “financial settlement” - that she can sign immediately as part of the confrontation?
Her incentive is guilt and possibly a desire to protect her reputation (if you also agree to nondisclosure).

Sad she’s following in her father’s footsteps. Maybe she’d prefer that her mother not learn of her adultery since your wife’s behavior shows a lack of empathy for her mother’s pain. Whatever her demon is it's not your fault nor your job to tolerate or attempt to fix....especially since there are no children impacted by her behavior. You can't control her behavior - just your own. Stay strong and stick to your plan.

I'm not sure if he is married. I think he is divorced, but not 100%. My lawyer said he can find out easy enough so I will leave that to him. When it comes time to play that card, we will.

As far as a timeline and a resolution process, I am following the advice of counsel. I'm paying him to be dispassionate, after all. He said don't confront yet. She's digging a hole. Don't interrupt. In fact, when a confrontation does happen, he advised I reveal as little as possible. He has suggested that she is also in contact with an attorney, and probably has NOT revealed to her attorney that she's cheating. He said they never do. So I'm holding back on the evidence for now. My lawyer knows.

I would prefer a quick resolution, I've walked through counter arguments from her (potential) lawyer, and when the time comes, we will resolve things. Whatever negotiating leverage we have, I'll use when the time comes.

 

[seadoug105]

I'm really sorry you find yourself hear. It never ceases to amaze me, how when people seem to have it all that want something else. You can't fix something if you don't know its broken; and I'm pretty sure she doesn't realize she is whats broken.

Has she said/implied she's not happy?

Does she even have a clue?

Assuming that she doesn't have a clue, will he first clue be when she is served?


In the end NYMNYC (Not Your Monkey, Not Your Circus).

Stay strong, walk tall, & live right!