I am married for a bit over a year. She is a very good person and I can tell without a doubt really loves me. Same on this side. If you visit a MGTOW site, it makes it seem like all women are horrid and men can only live a satisfying life without them. Women make up 51% of the worldwide population! Sounds a bit far fetched. Any opinions? Any truly happily married men out there who would not trade it for the world?
Is mgtow for real?
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Nothing in life is certain except death. If a man evaluates the risks and believes he can mitigate them sufficiently that the rewards are greater than the risks, then he is not unreasonable in taking the risks. Some men have a tremendous desire for children, so for them perhaps the reward is worth the risk.
Yes. Is it worth the risk? Perhaps, if the risk can be sufficiently mitigated. This is up to the man involved.
He is now. The fact that he got hosed in his previous marriage even though of course he did not expect to, probably affects his estimate of the future risk. It's possible that he has learned how to mitigate the risk enough that it is a good bet.
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Let me count the assumptions hidden in this little philosophy:
1) A wife always earns less than a husband
2) Every piece of property in any given relationship must belong to the man, as it is "his" stuff.
3)A wife is always actively hanging the threat of utter ruin over a man's head, and actively trying to extort all of "his" stuff from his.
4)in a relationship, all control and power is exercised through who is awarded what property at the end of that relationship
5) all that is important and valuable about a relationship is based purely in how much stuff you leave with at the end
6) No other obligations or responsibilities to other people are "enslaving", but once a woman is involved, accepting and responsibility or commitment is being "collared".
7) Women are intentionally seeking to "collar" men and control them
It's just so depressing to read this stuff without feeling immense anger and outrage...
Earlier on in this thread we were told how 85% of single mothers don't even work part-time.
From the time I divorced when my son was 4 years of age, I held down a very demanding full-time job in a legal office, an evening job in another legal office and weekends I worked at yet another job.
I had sole custody of my son and my ex was too busy with his new wife to exercise access. However, he meticulously took me to Court once a year for decreases in his share of child support, despite the fact that I was already contributing more than him - even though I earned far less. He was never successful, of course, but it was a clever tactic to stop me applying for annual increases...
By the time my son left school, my ex had ruined me financially. The modest nest egg earmarked for my old age (thanks to an inheritance from an elderly aunt) had been gobbled up long ago, and my 30s and early 40s had disappeared in a blur of anxiety and hard work.
I know MANY women who worked as hard as I did to rear and educate their children, and it totally INCENSES me to read this sort of crap about women taking men to the cleaners. Admittedly, some do, but generalising about us all is an absolute insult to the majority of us.
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Yes, women get their way most of the time even when the laws don't give them a sword to hold over the head of the men. That's why they don't need that sword.
That leaves out the moral argument that they shouldn't have it anyway, because it violates the men's rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
In that hypothetical situation where I was a young man without tremendous amounts of assets, I would probably move to Latin America. There are countries there where I have heard from usually reliable sources that men are valued far more than they are here.
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I see nothing of the kind, but then I have blocked a couple of posters, so maybe they are spouting something horrid.
Perception is everything... Crack on...
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In the Middle East at least, women depend on extended family, dowry and inheritance, and crazy interpretations of laws and by maintaining a very business like view of marriage.
The corollary to this is that it creates some fairly messed up dynamics of mistrust and antagonistic relationships, where everyone is in it for themselves.
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No, but she usually does. However, even if she earns the same as or more than he does, there are other risks, such as her deciding he isn't man enough for her. Also, it is VERY rare for even a much higher earning woman to be punished as severely as even a moderate male earner if she doesn't make child support payments on time and in full.
No, it is not necessarily all his stuff, but (back to 1), most of the time he earns more than she does, but this discrepancy is usually used to his detriment if there is a divorce. And the greater the discrepancy, in general, the more she wins and he loses in the divorce.
She doesn't have to do this. The state does it for her without her having to do anything. This is why the claims that "most people agree to negotiated settlements in divorce" are misleading; this is called "bargaining in the shadow of the law", and is inherently unfair to the party who is treated unfavorably by the law (the man, almost always).
No, but it certainly is an important point. However, if people were able to make whatever agreements they want up front and these agreements were upheld in court like other contracts, I would be satisfied.
See above.
In what other situation can you be forced to continue to pay someone money for (in some cases) the rest of their life even though the basis for the original agreement has been severed? No judge would uphold an employment agreement with those terms, but that is what alimony is.
Child support is different in that it is supposed to be for the benefit of the child. However, there is in general no way for the payor (almost always a man) to hold the payee (almost always a woman) to account for how the money is spent.
The enforcement mechanism is also draconian to the point where if I had to choose between a large student loan debt and a child-support obligation, both of which were too large for me to pay and still be able to put food on my table, etc., I would pick the student loan. In that case at least they wouldn't be able to throw me in prison for failure to pay.
Yes, there is debtor's prison for child support obligations, even though I thought debtor's prison was from the bad old days.
It's actually worse than that. It is impossible in the US for a woman to give up this power even if she doesn't want it. This is analogous to a situation where a person carries around a hypothetical bomb that he or she cannot dispose of or disarm. At any moment, the person can set it off and kill everyone in the vicinity. Who would want to be near this person even if they seemed to be the nicest person in the world?
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What happened to you is unconscionable. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.
However, 90% of the people that happens to are men.
Should we not be concerned about them too?
Actually it isn't. Things differ from country to country, and I know the USA has some pretty outdated laws about alimony and child support, but this certainly wasn't my experience; personally or professionally. I've seen far too many women go through what I went through, and it's very difficult for me to think or talk about it even...
I don't care what gender someone is. No one deserves to be screwed over by another human being.
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I agree with that.
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to # 3, I thought on this, and want to show what these men fear, and why.
If you aren't the perfect man at every step she may just leave you for someone else. Or just go ride their c0ck for a while. And if you are, she still might. Maybe she got bored, maybe the thrill of being with another man was exciting; addicting. There's no way to be perfect regardless. Either you're not making enough to support her lifestyle, or you're an uncaring workaholic. Too little time with the kids, or you're always home and it's smothering her. Either you're an abusive monster or you are a pushover who she doesn't respect. You're too controlling or if you let her have GNOs often, well, we all know in CWI what happens. Even if she turns on you, and breaks her vows, invalidating your contract; she still gets half plus monthly payments until the kids are 18...21...finished with college? Plus alimony that can be indefinite. Because she deserves the life you furnished her when you thought she loved you.
I have personally met many women who are like this, and just try to hide it. We've all met them. And this is what they fear. That whoever they find is just good at hiding it. Or maybe she'll just change, the spark fades, she falls out of love etc. My dad's 2nd wife was one.
I don't think most guys complain about having to pay if he breaks the vows and invalidates the contract. But she gets it both ways, and that is a travesty.
Of course, NAWALT. But many are. These guys are terrified this is what they're getting. That she'll be a better liar than they are a detector.
Page 7, paragraph 2 of this from the US Census.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/p60-240.pdf
85.1% of custodial moms (not necessarily single, they may have a SO or remarry). 76% of custodial dads--who make up 17% of custodial parents. ~40% custodial mothers receive government assistance.
You are in the minority. It doesn't make your experience any less real though, and it's horrible what happened. I don't wish that on anyone. I hope things have improved for you.
We are only looking at the odds of a marriage working, of a marriage failing, of the consequences of failure; not trying to say "all women are like that". In fact, one of the caveats that is often stressed is NAWALT. But the odds are what they are.
The complaint isn't that women are evil, less virtuous, or out to get us. Not that they are just looking for any opportunity to divorce. It's about an unjust system of punishments and rewards. In fact, from the MGTOW.com site that was mentioned earlier by one of MGTOWs detractors:
"The young man has finally learned that men and women share the same inherent character flaws, but not the same consequences. He has sinned, and he has paid dearly. She has sinned, and she has been exalted...
He doesn’t hate women; he hates the unforgiving female support machine. He doesn’t hate feminists or White Knights; he hates navigating the environment they create."
I'm afraid the US Census means nothing in the country where I reared my son... Remember, not all TAM members are from the US and our experiences can be vastly different.
My ex had a lot more dirty little tricks in store for me, Kivlor, and things got a lot, lot worse, but I won't even go there. Suffice it to say, if anyone has reason to feel bitter, I believe that I do - but I choose not to be.
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Yes but if custody payments were actually paid by the non-custodial parents, there would be less need for govt. assistance.
Custodial parents receiving the full
amount of child support due declined
between 2007 and 2009, from 46.8
percent to 41.2 percent.
Of the $35.1 billion in child support
due in 2009, 61.0 percent was
reported as received, averaging
$3,630 per custodial parent who was
due support.
I do the payroll where I work and have done payroll at other companies for a long time. I receive the garnishment orders. There are always new garnishments coming in because dads haven't paid their child support. It is quite common (as stated above, only 61% gets received, and even though this does not tell us why it was not received it clearly tells us that a lot of non custodial parents don't pay it). In my state, child support is automatically deducted from your pay check. There is no voluntarily paying it. This way it cuts down on non custodial parents not paying it. However, we have employees who have kids in other states and also have employees who live in other states. These are the employees we see garnishments on.
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Also realize, these types of comments are not backed up by anything. A custodial single parent "receives govt. assistance" does not mean the parent doesn't also work. Govt. assistance also does not mean a full ride on welfare. It usually means food assistance, which is not very much money. Working married parents who are low income can also receive this assistance, as can non-parents who are low income.
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I've always worked and made enough to support my home, self and children in the event that I needed to. I have and can also float all of us if H gets laid off or needs to change jobs.
My Mother was a SAHM for 24 years. My Dad wanted her home with the kids. She moved around with him when his job did, she shopped for, washed and ironed his clothes for work. She kept the home and the children so he could focus on his job, didn't have to take sick days off when the kids needed to be home, could travel when work needed him to. She made him 3 meals a day so he didn't have to do anything but go to work and come home. His time was free, it wasn't spent doing 50% of the household tasks on top of his job.
My Mom would get a job for a bit but it put them into a higher tax bracket and it wasn't worth what they were missing with her home.
She had an in-home job for a while but he didn't like that his home had to be partly business stuff.
So when he left her for another woman and my Mom had hardly anything for a resume, no experience, and had to start at square 1 all over again (oh ya and recovering from cancer when he left her), you bet your butt she was entitled to half the pension, half the home, spousal support and support for his children. She helped him earn it.
My father became a grump, horrified at the injustice of having to give her money. I used to get birthday cards saying "Sorry it's not much, your Mother is taking all my money" I know how much my father made, what he gave my Mom was nothing. Sometimes I would only hear from him to ask me to ask her to stop payments. She eventually canceled SS altogether even though the judge gave it to her until his retirement.
I'm telling you, as a child of a man like this- who decided that my mother and what she did for me and my brothers and my home was worthless- I'll never fully forgive him and that's why I decided to not be a SAHM. I couldn't go through what my Mom did.
My Mother was a SAHM for 24 years. My Dad wanted her home with the kids. She moved around with him when his job did, she shopped for, washed and ironed his clothes for work. She kept the home and the children so he could focus on his job, didn't have to take sick days off when the kids needed to be home, could travel when work needed him to. She made him 3 meals a day so he didn't have to do anything but go to work and come home. His time was free, it wasn't spent doing 50% of the household tasks on top of his job.
My Mom would get a job for a bit but it put them into a higher tax bracket and it wasn't worth what they were missing with her home.
She had an in-home job for a while but he didn't like that his home had to be partly business stuff.
So when he left her for another woman and my Mom had hardly anything for a resume, no experience, and had to start at square 1 all over again (oh ya and recovering from cancer when he left her), you bet your butt she was entitled to half the pension, half the home, spousal support and support for his children. She helped him earn it.
My father became a grump, horrified at the injustice of having to give her money. I used to get birthday cards saying "Sorry it's not much, your Mother is taking all my money" I know how much my father made, what he gave my Mom was nothing. Sometimes I would only hear from him to ask me to ask her to stop payments. She eventually canceled SS altogether even though the judge gave it to her until his retirement.
I'm telling you, as a child of a man like this- who decided that my mother and what she did for me and my brothers and my home was worthless- I'll never fully forgive him and that's why I decided to not be a SAHM. I couldn't go through what my Mom did.
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In terms of being cheated on, left, abused, treated badly, losing everything because they aren't perfect enough, women face exactly the same risks as men.
In terms of child support, I find it very difficult to fathom why a man would feel that the end of his marriage would spell the end of his financial obligations to his child. You don't divorce the kids do you?
In terms of alimony, I don't know US law, but in my jurisdiction alimony is only paid to a spouse who sacrificed career opportunities for the family and so will have understandable challenges re-entering the workforce. Said alimony is only paid for a finite amount of time.
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Yeah, there's a lot of issues with this information. We take what we can get though. 85% of "custodial mothers" do not work. She may have remarried. Or be cohabitating. No info on that. The numbers for men were abysmal, at 76%. No word on if they're single, remarried or cohabitating.
ETA: What I think those numbers really indicate is that being a single parent sucks. And that's something the MGTOW guys will learn the hard way if they decide to go the surrogate route. We are meant to pair bond. That's reality. It doesn't mean that things always work out, but it is the way humans in general are meant to interact. Children benefit from it, as do the individual parents, and society as a whole benefits when kids are raised as well as they can be.
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The stats actually show that women typically end up worse off than men after divorce, financially speaking. And work their a$$es off to make ends meet and care for their children.
And to be honest, I really can't fathom why a man who wants a SAHM for his kids believes that his wife has somehow contributed nothing to the marriage, and that all of his income is rightfully his. Surely, there is some kind of accountability to starting a family? And why this is *her* fault for "collaring" him is beyond me.
But MGTOW of course do not care how much it costs the woman, or anything about her perspective. It's all about how much it costs him. Never mind the balance sheet.
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