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Wrong label on Codependency?

3K views 29 replies 11 participants last post by  EnjoliWoman 
#1 ·
#2 ·
As a life-long codie, and long-time member of Al-Anon and CoDA, I beg to differ with the author's stance. I have yet to meet a single person married to an addict who wasn't an enabler/codie. From time to time, we compile lists of what codies do and endure versus "normies."

I married two alcoholics. I stayed in abusive relationships long after the tread had worn off the tires. Other people's moods or attitudes dictated how I acted or reacted.

No, not every woman in a toxic relationship is necessarily codependent, but every codependent woman I've ever known gravitates towards some form of "toxicity," in order to fix the other person, or to validate their own self-worth by covering up and making things right by "helping" their partner see the light.

Am I specialist? Nope. I'm just a codependent.
 
#4 ·
I'm just trying to see how they decide the difference between an abused person (who is not codependent) and a Codependent?

Do they just assume if your abused, you must be Codependent?

If you have been in more than one toxic relationship, does that automatically define you?
 
#5 ·
I'm just trying to see how they decide the difference between an abused person (who is not codependent) and a Codependent?
I want to say this in a way that will not be construed as mean-spirited or judgemental. However, that is difficult to do.

Frequently I find people are trying to label a person with difficult personality traits with one of the many diagnoses in the DSM-IV; in other words, they are BPD, ADHD, OCD, etc.

Labels are just that - labels. So here is my take on this: if anyone is in an abusive relationship, and they are tolerating the abuse, they have an issue that has been labeled "codependency." It is a label; nothing more.

The most important facet is figuring out what to do with one's injured/damaged personality traits in order to choose better partners and friends with whom to engage in life.
 
#7 ·
I think people who choose to "stay" in a toxic relationship are indeed co-dependent. I was in one for 22 yrs. & was textbook co-dependent. I was free to leave anytime (this is America).

I saw myself as a "victim"...poor me, my husband is mean, angry, controlling, etc.

But in reality, I was a "volunteer" in the toxic relationship. IMO a victim would be a rape victim (held down & forced into sex) or another such crime.

I participated & allowed the abuse - co-dependent.
 
#8 ·
Another question would be,,,

If most/all BS's/abuse victims are basically Codependent, what are all abusers/ cheaters?

Would they all fall into narcissists,or at least some other personality disorder? I don't agree with cheaters only being selfish, disrespectful, etc... We all know right from wrong.

I might get attacked on this,, but I don't believe, unless there is a personality flaw that anyone could cheat on/abuse their spouse or loved ones... Somewhere in their heart/back of their mind, they think of their spouse/kids...

Something has to explain their weakness, their inability to stop their behavior.... (yes, some confess, is this just because they know it's wrong, or because the AP dumped them, the AP's spouse finds out or a third party finds out and threatens to expose or other deciding factors, not just because of guilt?
 
#12 ·
Another question would be,,,

If most/all BS's/abuse victims are basically Codependent, what are all abusers/ cheaters?

Would they all fall into narcissists,or at least some other personality disorder?
I'm trying to figure out why you need a label for bad behavior. Not everyone who cheats or abuses is probably in the DSM-IV.

Do you hope to find closure by putting a label on bad behavior?
 
#16 ·
No, I'm not looking for closure, yet what makes a person show a pattern of bad behavior, if it's not a disorder?

I just don't believe that everyone who ends up in a toxic relationship should automatically be labeled.

Everyone displays signs of Codependency, just as most everyone displays signs of narcissism,, but they don't label people with this as freely.
 
#17 ·
No, I'm not looking for closure, yet what makes a person show a pattern of bad behavior, if it's not a disorder?
Well, before modern psychiatry and the DSM, I suppose someone who exhibited bad behavior was just labeled a mean S.O.B. or evil.

In this world, even with the DSM, maybe some people are just no damned good. They might just be mean or seeking revenge, or whatever ....

There aren't always answers to "why?" I have asked, "why?" myself concerning a number of situations that have occurred in my life. Do I have an answer? Nope. But I'm not going to go on an archaeological dig in order to find one.

As long as I'm at peace with myself and keeping my side of the street clean, I'll be satisfied with not knowing a lot of the "why's" in this lifetime.
 
#9 ·
I think the users/abusers/cheaters are codependent too. It's just the other side of the same coin. Codependents need the users as much as they need us. Yin/yang, light/dark, that kind of thing.

I know this is deep and twisted but I've done a lot of reading on this and believe it to be true. Without willing victims there'd be no abuse. Think about it.
 
#10 ·
I disagree with the author. People who continually and repetitively engage in unhealthy dynamics when they could choose not to are codependent. Period. She takes six items "from a long list" as she herself describes, and uses ONLY those six things to make a blanket statement about every abuse dynamic. That's flawed logic at its finest. Would her readers think "Since the abused person meets the other thirty criteria, but not these six, they must not be codependent?"

It's not possible to function in this society without depending on others to a degree. How would you label the differences between independence, inter-dependence, co-dependence, and dependence?

They'll all a matter of degrees on a continuum. My personal opinion is that inter-dependence is the only area of that continuum where emotional health and social success can both be achieved.
 
#11 ·
People who continually and repetitively engage in unhealthy dynamics when they could choose not to are codependent. Period.
:iagree:I agree with Kathy. Codependency is a dysfunctional repetitive behavior. The author, while conceding that the abused women exhibit such behavior, argues unconvincingly that it isn't "codependency" because of how they acquired it: from years of abuse by their angry husbands.

Well, of course, if one defines codependency to exist only when a wife learns it in early childhood from her mother, then one can logically conclude that many abused women are "not codependent." To claim that this is a result of the empirical study, however, is silliness. It is the result only of the author having defined the problem away for those women.

I note that, with the term "codependency," it is important to always define up front exactly what you mean about it. Because it is not considered a mental disorder, it is not defined in the diagnostic manual DSM-IV. Nor are there any plans to do so in the DSM-5 scheduled for release this May. As long as most religions in the world continue to prescribe "selflessness" as the key to heaven -- and most nations continue to rely on their young peoples' willingness to sacrifice themselves for national security, there is little chance of a definition forthcoming.

Interestingly, the author quotes from CoDA, the largest association of "codependents" in the world. If you go to CoDA's website, you will find much discussion but absolutely no definition. Instead, CoDA offers an absurd list of more than fifty "patterns and characteristics" -- more traits than the DSM-IV lists for all ten personality disorders COMBINED. For a good laugh, take a look at it at New Patterns of Codependency.

I say "absurd" list because the only "pattern" left out of that lengthy list is the one on the wallpaper in your kitchen. Clearly, CoDA is a political organization that, in order to appease the many thousands of separate member groups it relies on for funding, has obediently included all views and suggestions.
 
#20 ·
I found the article very strange to say the least. And the responses to it. I would classify the author (and those who responded to it) as having victim personalities.

The ultimate boundary against an abuser is absolute and total No Contact. Stay in contact, it’s guaranteed you’ll get abused.

Stay with the abuser then you do so because you want the things they provide you with. In that way you enable your own abuse. If you didn’t value or want what the abuser provided you’d have been long gone.
 
#23 ·
I found the article very strange to say the least. And the responses to it. I would classify the author (and those who responded to it) as having victim personalities.

The ultimate boundary against an abuser is absolute and total No Contact. Stay in contact, it’s guaranteed you’ll get abused.

Stay with the abuser then you do so because you want the things they provide you with. In that way you enable your own abuse. If you didn’t value or want what the abuser provided you’d have been long gone.
This is why my IC told me to do a 30 day "blackout",, No contact. She compared this to people going through rehab,, said that for the first 30 days to 6 weeks, they are not allowed any outside contact.
 
#24 ·
I read in a book that 98% of us are codependent and I believe it now that I know what I know.

Abuse isn't always so clear cut (like being hit). Sometime it is as you say "subtle". That's the most vicious kind of abuse in my opinion. Until you get that wake up call or someone points it out you just don't know. You accept it all as normal because it's all you know.

Also remember you married a narcissist and they are the nastiest kind of abusers. They invented subtle. They can make you feel like it's ALL your fault and that you're the abusive one.
 
#25 ·
And I'm not saying I'm not Codependent,, I'm just curious as to the labeling that as a codependent, you asked to be in a toxic relationship.. that it can't be just because your spouse turns out to be a "bad seed",,,,with no red flags at the beginning to recognize...
It's an automatic conclusion that the "codie" is more to blame than the abuser... that's the part that bothers me.
 
#28 ·
Thought I'd jump into this lively and enlightened conversation. I've written a lot on codependency, including "Codependency for Dummies." My personal and professional experience is that as has been said someone who stays in an abusive relationship is more than likely codependent, but I'd like to add that there are many codependents in relationships where there is NO abuse. They may even be content in the relationship. Usually, however, there are intimacy issues. Major symptoms of codependency are low self-esteem, control, denial, and dysfunctional boundaries and communication. My definition of a codependent is someone who can't function from their innate self, but whose behavior and thinking revolves around a substance, process, or other person(s). Addicts and most abusers fit into this category, too. There's a lot of information and blogs on my website, What Is Codependency? Codependency Symptoms and Recovery by Darlene Lancer, MFT. Hope this helps.
 
#29 ·
I don't know a lot about codependency, but I do feel that not everyone who tries to be helpful to others is 100% codependent, even if they remain in a not so good situation. If thats the case, doctors,teachers, counselors,and others who offer help of the world would be codependent too.

I had a friend who lived with an alcoholic. He got help from AA, and she went to meetings and read books on codependency. And while some books, people and meetings will lead others to believe they are in fact completley codependent, I don't think thats always the case. For my friend she found some of the things that were mentioned about codependency actually did not apply to her.

Maybe all of us are a little codependent to a degree. Maybe its more about how some people enter into a relationship with a low since of self worth to begin with, and there are some people who develop a low since of self worth from living with another person who shatters another persons self worth from their behaviors. I guess all people enable others at some point. Just my 2 cents.
 
#30 ·
I agree with the article. Some people enter into the relationship feeling the way most co-dependent people do.

Others enter into the relationship and evolve into that co-dependent role over time.

And still others 'act' co-dependent as a means of survival until the practical issues can be resolved.

In my abusive relationship with an NPD he wasn't like that at first. He wasn't abusive, he praised my talents. I did not enter into the relationship a co-dependent nor seek out such a person. I did not know he did drugs. I was merely naive. Over time with much confusion he wore away my confidence with criticism but I always knew I was right when we disagreed on a decision but I chose to not argue as a matter of self-preservation. (And inside was often thinking "I told you so" when his decisions backfired.) My hobbies and interest endured. I am willing to be tolerant and understanding but not to the detriment of my own well-being.

So the label isn't always correct. And sometimes the cart DOES come before the horse! :)
 
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