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If she really loved him, she'd be equally heartbroken and wouldn't have turned to another man so easily and quickly. Sounds like she really just wants the white picket fence and he was a nice enough that she could envision that with him. That isn't love, though.

I'm glad he's seeing a counselor. If they are both having difficulty getting over the fling, it's likely going to come back up during arguments, etc. It's best he cut all ties and be single for a bit. There are lots of things to do in SF to fill his days. And keeping with IC would be good for a while.
 

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He claims she says:

You've got to get over this.
It was just a blip in my whole life and you are making way too much out of this.
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Yup this is the modern metro-sexual don't judge anybody message he has been receiving from media and society. And it is totally BS!

There is no reason he has to get over this! He has every right to judge her as having done something unacceptable.

Perhaps part of his anguish is he thinks he is supposed to get over this and not judge her, but in his heart and gut he knows what she did was very very wrong. He may think he is wrong to have his own standards, whatever those standards are.


He tells me:

She is supportive of me up to a point.
I know I am insecure and needy and I don't know why I am like this and why I cannot just let this go.
She just really crushed me.
I feel lousy about myself.
Again I think he spells it out there. He doesn't believe he has the right to his own identity, his own standards, and to come to judgments about others. Without her he doesn't feel he has an identity. His identity is wrapped up in being with her. So rather than dump her for pooping on his life, he feels he has to keep her and that he's in the wrong for not liking what she did.

It isn't enough that others judge her as having done wrong. He can't accept that it is ok for him to make that judgment.
 

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VH, this is not dumping on you so please don't take it that way.

Your son most likely identified with you as he was growing up. He saw his dad being a top grade jerk and he hated his dad for it. He swore he'd never be like his dad. And he bonded to you. He looked up to you. Unfortunately he also learned from watching your behavior. We say it here all the time that kids will duplicate their parents' relationships, so it is better to get out of a bad marriage rather than stay in one for the kids. So your son admired you but unfortunately learned subconsciously that good people put up with bad behavior. Your son may also have a case of thinking in terms of scarcity. If he loses this woman, he may never find another decent woman.

I bet you could look back and see where you learned to put up with bad behavior. There was some lesson from your childhood that led to you not leaving your husband.

Your son needs to have the realization that his thought process is defective. It is not ok for someone to treat another poorly. It is ok to stick up for oneself when that does happen. He should not be modeling this aspect of how you were in your marriage.

I understand that you did the best you could, and it was done for the right reasons. So I'm not trying to make you feel badly. I've made enough mistakes that it wouldn't be my place to tell others to feel badly!

One of the bits of advice which I think fits here is that one should think of who they want to be, not what they want to be. Find a role model and emulate them. Iow, don't think "I want to be married and live in the suburbs with a good job", think "I want to be like Uncle Joe who has a good marriage, lives in a nice area, and has a happy life". If your son can find such a role model he can then emulate the behavior of that person. I bet that person would not stick with an unrepentant uncaring woman!
 

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Discussion Starter · #286 ·

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Use your cursor and put it to the left of the url, and then highlight the whole thing. On a Mac press simultaneously "command" and the "c" key. Then in an open email, in the body, put your cursor in, and then press simultaneously "command" and the "v" key. There are other ways to copy and paste, including on a PC.

Or you can open your email, and in another window have this page open, and type the page address (url) manually. It would start out like this: talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelilty/304009-will- ..... you see what I mean?

You're basically providing him with the string of text at the top, in the tab, that is the "address" of the thread. And then all he has to do is click on it and it will open.
 

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He doesn't believe he has the right to his own identity, his own standards, and to come to judgments about others. Without her he doesn't feel he has an identity. His identity is wrapped up in being with her. So rather than dump her for pooping on his life, he feels he has to keep her and that he's in the wrong for not liking what she did.

It isn't enough that others judge her as having done wrong. He can't accept that it is ok for him to make that judgment.
And he is this way because of his upbringing. Seeing one parent denigrate the other, and the weaker one just letting it happen. It's the only relationship he's ever seen modeled. And because he has an overbearing, mean father, he - as a male - was unable to 'learn' how to be a strong man himself. Men need respect and admiration and high expectations from their dads, and he didn't get that; he got a narcissistic User instead. So he grew up thinking he was flawed, unlovable, and not worthy to stand up to anyone.

My DD25 had a pretty dysfunctional dad growing up. If I hadn't stepped in and walked her through it, explained him to her so that she could still love him AND love herself, she would have turned out just like your son. But I was able to show her that he loved her, he was just too broken to love her the right way. I showed her the psychological aspects of who he was and why he did what he did. She needed to hear that from an adult so she could stop internalizing the pain and blaming herself (the way your son always has).

Maybe it's not too late for you to share with your son what you've learned about your stbx. Tell him about IB's narcissism and greed and User tendencies, help him see that that is IB, but your son doesn't have to be anything like him in order to be a strong healthy man. Maybe offer to go to family counseling with him so you two can talk about the kind of childhood he had growing up, and let the counselor give him some tips on how to find his own strength and to stop blaming himself, and see that he deserves better than what his gf is giving him. Going to therapy with my DD is the best thing I could have ever done, because the counselor was able to help her see the fallacies in her thinking and strive for better. I hope you'll consider it. If nothing else, ask him to go with YOU, as a favor to you, and then just see what happens.

In fact, maybe you asking him for support is exactly what he needs to feel proud of himself, to feel like he is of value...you keep saying you have to shield him and not involve him, but honestly, that sounds to me like you're treating him like a 12 year old - and maybe that's why he's acting as insecure as a 12 year old - not even you trust him to be able to handle things.
 

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And he is this way because of his upbringing. Seeing one parent denigrate the other, and the weaker one just letting it happen. It's the only relationship he's ever seen modeled. And because he has an overbearing, mean father, he - as a male - was unable to 'learn' how to be a strong man himself. Men need respect and admiration and high expectations from their dads, and he didn't get that; he got a narcissistic User instead. So he grew up thinking he was flawed, unlovable, and not worthy to stand up to anyone.
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Maybe offer to go to family counseling with him so you two can talk about the kind of childhood he had growing up, and let the counselor give him some tips on how to find his own strength and to stop blaming himself, and see that he deserves better than what his gf is giving him. Going to therapy with my DD is the best thing I could have ever done, because the counselor was able to help her see the fallacies in her thinking and strive for better. I hope you'll consider it. If nothing else, ask him to go with YOU, as a favor to you, and then just see what happens.
My upbringing wasn't quite that, but not very different either. I learned to subjugate my needs because of it. I learned whatever was wrong was my fault. If someone else was unhappy it was because of me, and it was my duty to fix it.

Anyhow, my counselor at one point told me my thinking was defective. That was a bit of a shock to hear. But it was the beginning of me being able to see why my thinking and behavior were not moving me in the right direction.

I agree, some therapy for VH's son and her would likely be very helpful.
 

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My upbringing wasn't quite that, but not very different either. I learned to subjugate my needs because of it. I learned whatever was wrong was my fault. If someone else was unhappy it was because of me, and it was my duty to fix it.

Anyhow, my counselor at one point told me my thinking was defective. That was a bit of a shock to hear. But it was the beginning of me being able to see why my thinking and behavior were not moving me in the right direction.

I agree, some therapy for VH's son and her would likely be very helpful.
Me, too. My upbringing was like this. It took the traumatic experience of my marriage ending to shake me out of it, and I'm still working on it. It's a long process.

VH, your son doesn't know that his thinking is flawed, because he's never learned anything else.
 

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VH, this is not dumping on you so please don't take it that way.

Your son most likely identified with you as he was growing up. He saw his dad being a top grade jerk and he hated his dad for it. He swore he'd never be like his dad. And he bonded to you. He looked up to you. Unfortunately he also learned from watching your behavior. We say it here all the time that kids will duplicate their parents' relationships, so it is better to get out of a bad marriage rather than stay in one for the kids. So your son admired you but unfortunately learned subconsciously that good people put up with bad behavior. Your son may also have a case of thinking in terms of scarcity. If he loses this woman, he may never find another decent woman.

ETC
Sorry my post is a bible @VeryHurt but I have personal experience with this and my son. I really feel for you both.

You've hit the nail on the head @Thor.

My son#1 watched his Dad treat me like crap - I stayed ONLY for the kids. He's now 28 & has been doing same as yours. One bad relationship for 2 years. I talked to him for hours & my son#2 (similar age) had a few talks with him. Seemed to be more effective when son#2 talked to him - the man-to-man as posters said. He eventually broke up with her. After 'pulling off the bandaid' he got over it quite quickly in fact.

BUT. . . always a 'but', he soon met another girl, 2 years in now. She's not as bad as gf#1 but basically same deal & it started subtly at first 6 months in. Son#2 & I have been talking with him again but nothing like the extent we were the first time.

Yesterday, he told me he's going to break up with her. Woohoo! I'm mighty pleased & proud of him. What you said Thor is exactly what I've been saying to him. Subconsciously, he thinks it's OK to be treated badly by a partner from watching me being treated badly by his Dad in his childhood. The experts say the same.

What has happened to my son shows how DIFFICULT it is to break the habit - like any other habit. It's an addiction in fact.

I'm trying to get my son to do therapy. Your son needs it too whether he breaks up with her or not. It's hard to shift.

There's a great guy on YouTube, Ross Rosenberg, who calls it 'Self-Love Deficit Disorder' instead of codependency. I think it's a much better description. He deals with people who have narcissist partners and can't break away. It boils down to the same thing as both our sons have going on because I think partners who treat their partners badly are all excessively narcissistic, or even full-blown ones.
Associated with it is what Ross terms 'pathological loneliness'. People with 'Self-Love Deficit Disorder' suffer from pathological loneliness when they break up which is why they find it so hard to do so and even go back again for more.

Here's a link to one of Ross' YouTube videos. He has lots of videos on there. He was in 3 such relationships himself so he knows what it's like. And he's a guy.:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRubkqHHoRA

And yes, all the experts say it stems from childhood, especially with kids who are more sensitive. Thankfully, my 2nd son was resilient enough not to pick it up. My daughter? I'm not so sure about her as yet.

I feel for you VeryHurt. It is so hard to watch our children in pain. Try to get your son to watch some of Ross' videos. It will give him great insight.

PS I'm about to meet a friend for coffee. He's trying to break away from his partner who treats him badly. He broke it up a few weeks ago but then got back with her. He broke up with her again yesterday but needs to talk with me as he's struggling with his decision. And he's 43 years old!
 

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Yup this is the modern metro-sexual don't judge anybody message he has been receiving from media and society. And it is totally BS!

There is no reason he has to get over this! He has every right to judge her as having done something unacceptable.

Perhaps part of his anguish is he thinks he is supposed to get over this and not judge her, but in his heart and gut he knows what she did was very very wrong. He may think he is wrong to have his own standards, whatever those standards are.




Again I think he spells it out there. He doesn't believe he has the right to his own identity, his own standards, and to come to judgments about others. Without her he doesn't feel he has an identity. His identity is wrapped up in being with her. So rather than dump her for pooping on his life, he feels he has to keep her and that he's in the wrong for not liking what she did.

It isn't enough that others judge her as having done wrong. He can't accept that it is ok for him to make that judgment.
Could NOT agree MORE Thor... that is the root of this.
 

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Sorry my post is a bible @VeryHurt but I have personal experience with this and my son. I really feel for you both.

You've hit the nail on the head @Thor.

My son#1 watched his Dad treat me like crap - I stayed ONLY for the kids. He's now 28 & has been doing same as yours. One bad relationship for 2 years. I talked to him for hours & my son#2 (similar age) had a few talks with him. Seemed to be more effective when son#2 talked to him - the man-to-man as posters said. He eventually broke up with her. After 'pulling off the bandaid' he got over it quite quickly in fact.

BUT. . . always a 'but', he soon met another girl, 2 years in now. She's not as bad as gf#1 but basically same deal & it started subtly at first 6 months in. Son#2 & I have been talking with him again but nothing like the extent we were the first time.

Yesterday, he told me he's going to break up with her. Woohoo! I'm mighty pleased & proud of him. What you said Thor is exactly what I've been saying to him. Subconsciously, he thinks it's OK to be treated badly by a partner from watching me being treated badly by his Dad in his childhood. The experts say the same.

What has happened to my son shows how DIFFICULT it is to break the habit - like any other habit. It's an addiction in fact.

I'm trying to get my son to do therapy. Your son needs it too whether he breaks up with her or not. It's hard to shift.

There's a great guy on YouTube, Ross Rosenberg, who calls it 'Self-Love Deficit Disorder' instead of codependency. I think it's a much better description. He deals with people who have narcissist partners and can't break away. It boils down to the same thing as both our sons have going on because I think partners who treat their partners badly are all excessively narcissistic, or even full-blown ones.
Associated with it is what Ross terms 'pathological loneliness'. People with 'Self-Love Deficit Disorder' suffer from pathological loneliness when they break up which is why they find it so hard to do so and even go back again for more.

Here's a link to one of Ross' YouTube videos. He has lots of videos on there. He was in 3 such relationships himself so he knows what it's like. And he's a guy.:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRubkqHHoRA

And yes, all the experts say it stems from childhood, especially with kids who are more sensitive. Thankfully, my 2nd son was resilient enough not to pick it up. My daughter? I'm not so sure about her as yet.

I feel for you VeryHurt. It is so hard to watch our children in pain. Try to get your son to watch some of Ross' videos. It will give him great insight.

PS I'm about to meet a friend for coffee. He's trying to break away from his partner who treats him badly. He broke it up a few weeks ago but then got back with her. He broke up with her again yesterday but needs to talk with me as he's struggling with his decision. And he's 43 years old!
GREAT post Moonshadow... Thank you so much for sharing this. This resonates very much that there is a gap in the codependency material. I think this may very well close that gap. One I have already closed, but just didn't have the language to express fully. Checking out this guy. Thanks!

ETA: Aha... he is just saying the same thing, but in less clinical terms. The relationship addiction is there because of Stockholm Syndrome. The narcissist taps the wounded child inside and it becomes a drug to the relationship addict. What I like about his work is he zero's in on the pathological loneliness and coaches people how to get over that hump to allow self love work enough time and room to take hold and stay on the other side of that hump, choosing healthier relationships in the future. Good stuff.
 

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Discussion Starter · #294 · (Edited)
Updates:

I know it has been way too long since I have updated. So, let's see:
My son is still going to see his Psychiatrist twice a month w/ his fiancee. He is still obsessing over her "on a break" tryst and the Doc wants to put him on Lexapro.

This is what I observe.

He is more romantic than she is.

He is emotionally needy and she cannot meet these needs.

He is still angry.

He has trust issues.

He hates her Mom. (That's a whole other thread!)

He feels that she lies about the price of things. i.e: These shoes were on sale. And needs to put her on a budget.

They are saving for a home but she had to drop 10K on a breast reduction because her gown will fit better.

Issues
In-Laws
Finances
Emotional Incompatibility
Trust Issues

I am asking, what are the other main "issues" that I need to address?

Her Mother is a B!TCH.

VH
 

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Ok, I only read the first post and the thread may be much changed since then, but seems like SON did not value this GF enough to stay with her. He moved away. Then he expected GF to uproot and move to him 3000 miles cross country to see if things MIGHT work out.

ETA: He valued the job more than his relationship with GF. She valued a guy that valued her more than his job.

Hope all worked out for SON and for GF.

Praying for you too VH.
 

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Updates:

I know it has been way too long since I have updated. So, let's see:
My son is still going to see his Psychiatrist twice a month w/ his fiancee. He is still obsessing over her "on a break" tryst and the Doc wants to put him on Lexapro.

This is what I observe.

He is more romantic than she is.

He is emotionally needy and she cannot met these needs.

He is still angry.

He has trust issues.

He hates her Mom. (That's a whole other thread!)

He feels that she lies about the price of things. i.e: These shoes were on sale. And needs to put her on a budget.

They are saving for a home but she had to drop 10K on a breast reduction because her gown will fit better.

Issues
In-Laws
Finances
Emotional Incompatibility
Trust Issues

I am asking, what are the other main "issues" that I need to address?

Her Mother is a B!TCH.

VH
She spent $10k on a breast reduction because her dress didn't fit?!?

CRAZY. Just buy a new freaking dress in the correct size.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #297 ·
Ok, I only read the first post and the thread may be much changed since then, but seems like SON did not value this GF enough to stay with her. He moved away. Then he expected GF to uproot and move to him 3000 miles cross country to see if things MIGHT work out.

ETA: He valued the job more than his relationship with GF. She valued a guy that valued her more than his job.

Hope all worked out for SON and for GF.

Praying for you too VH.
Blu ~
She WAS going out to CA to be with him but met this other guy and then said that "she didn't have an engagement ring."
VH
 

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Read the first and second page and skipped the middle.

First, since its still i guess not accepted that SHE (fiance) cheated, but what about the OM? was the OBS informed that there was a highly sexual affair between her husband and your future daughter in law? I do hope that was brought to light... Because if she did not cheat on your son, she was party to and aiding the cheating of another.

As to breast reduction. I wish i could have that done! I have 38 triple k size... I can't go to victoria secret or ANY other easy store to buy a bra.... It suxs. I need a reduction and i have no money and my insurance calls it vanity! UGH try shopping for a size that is half way through the alphabet! ugh, her level of vanity disgusts me... Buy a new fracking dress! ugh!

Please please i and so praying to the forces that guide us to not let this woman be the mother of your grandchildren. She is SO not right!
 

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She spent $10k on a breast reduction because her dress didn't fit?!?
In hindsight, my wife and I wish she had a breast reduction when younger. All the medical issues now make that too late.

If they were really big that would be a heavy weight on her chest and back, especially as she got older. Better to do that first. Good for her. Now a breast enlargement for a dress is a different story, IMO.

I know it has been way too long since I have updated. So, let's see:
My son is still going to see his Psychiatrist twice a month w/ his fiancee. He is still obsessing over her "on a break" tryst and the Doc wants to put him on Lexapro.

This is what I observe.

He is more romantic than she is.

He is emotionally needy and she cannot met these needs.

He is still angry.

He has trust issues.

He hates her Mom. (That's a whole other thread!)

He feels that she lies about the price of things. i.e: These shoes were on sale. And needs to put her on a budget.

They are saving for a home but she had to drop 10K on a breast reduction because her gown will fit better.

Issues
In-Laws
Finances
Emotional Incompatibility
Trust Issues

I am asking, what are the other main "issues" that I need to address?

Her Mother is a B!TCH.
VH, why is he marrying her? They are just not a match. Nothing wrong with him or her. He is emotionally just like I was/am. She is different and always will be. They will clash as long as they are married. (Note I did not say all their lives).

Listen, if you know my story, you know I cheated on W before marriage. A drunked half-ONS, but no excuse. W still married me. She remembers that incident. Never will forget.

Now once they marry, he won't be able to mention it again because if he brings it up, she will say (maybe rightfully so) "Then why did you still marry me."

I never played that card but even my W's best friend said that to W. "Stop complaining. You gave up right to complain about that when you married him (me)."

We fought a couple of months ago. The cheating came up. I literally had not thought about it in more than decade. She finally told me she thought about it often when we had big fights "Why did I still marry you? I should have move on then".

From reading just two posts, and I hope I am dead wrong, but sounds like SON will not ever be able to forget this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #300 ·
She spent $10k on a breast reduction because her dress didn't fit?!?

CRAZY. Just buy a new freaking dress in the correct size.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
She has large breasts and always wanted a reduction. Looking good in her wedding gown was the motivating factor to get the reduction last month.

I went with her for the initial consultation and the surgeon suggested she wait until after she has her babies and/or breast feed them since she will need a revision. I explained to her that a revision is trickier because the surgeon is not working with "virgin" tissue, muscle etc...

But, she decided to do it for her wedding.
 
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