[Keke24]

I'm in my early 30s, married 8 years with 2 kids in an arranged marriage. Wife was always uncomfortable with virtually all forms of intimacy, including even hugs etc, she wasn't at all keen on it if it involve more than holding hands. She would be OK with it sometimes as a favour to me and a sense of obligation, but nothing more.

What is her physical response to different forms of intimacy? What is her emotional response?

This bring us up to about 6 months ago. Since then once again she only kept her half of the bargain for a few months, although to be fair she did make a lot of progress on the intimacy front in that time and we were together 3x a week most weeks. About 2 months ago she got "burnt out" of the intimacy, which I got pretty fed up about after a couple weeks. After a few weeks like that she got back in the mood, but we'd only slept together once when I discover she's been talking about me to her Dad and to a psychologist who lives round the corner. I basically lost it a bit because I felt like I made it clear intimacy is something I need, you agreed to it, you got burnt out, I got fed up and then yes after about 2 weeks I started being cold to her and not my usual loving self. So why is it fair to complain about me being cold to your Dad, I'm sure leaving out anything from my point of view. And if our marriage counsellor isn't right for you, do you really need to choose the psychologist who I'm always bumping into, the worlds full of psychologists! Or to discuss it without me able to say anything. At the same time she had a minor surgical procedure at the top of her leg and needed me to change a dressing for her, she hadn't been dieting or exercising so I got quite freaked out at the sight. It was really off-putting (using restrained language) but I didn't say anything to her because I felt it would be un-gentlemanly (if that concept still exists).

What is the relevance of the bolded above?

Any thoughts? and thanks for reading!

OP, what was your wife's childhood like? What kind of relationship does her mother and father have? What does her relationship with them look like? With her siblings?

What is your wife's primary emotion? Does she get excited often/easily?

 

[Keke24]

Physically, since sessions 6 months ago with her personal therapist which focused specifically on this, she very much seems to enjoy it. (Before that she didn't)
Emotionally is a different question. She tells me that still now, often afterwards she cries for hours. It seems really weird, but googling it it seems fairly common, there's something called "postcoital dysphoria". So not sure what that's all about, she's discussed it with her personal therapist but not shared with me other than saying its because I don't make an emotional connection with her.

Why aren't you more interested in her crying after sex and her discussions with her personal therapist? Have you considered that your lacking effort to find out about these topics in detail would suggest to her that you don't think these are serious issues? Rather than relying on the simple explanation you got online, you need to ask your wife exactly what she's experiencing when she's crying. She could be reliving a past unwanted sexual experience and the sadness/hopelessness of that situation for all you know.

Just explaining she didn't do the dieting/exercising she'd agreed on, and that I found the results of this hard to say the least

I think she had a happy positive childhood, she has good relationships with her parents and with her siblings.

Her parents' relationship, while they seem to get along fine, just judging by their personalities I don't think there's much physical going on, but of course I don't really know. Her Mum does seem to have a serious anxiety issue though

Yes she does get excited very easily about pretty small things. Why?

Lots of things.

If we're talking touch aversion, even Asperger's.

Prior skeletons in the closet due to CSA

Oppression by males in the family or culture

Role models growing up

Expectations messed up due to culture or upbringing

Etc

You need to find out more about your wife's childhood. Our childhood experiences and the relationships we're exposed to have a big impact on our behavior in relationships as adults. The fact that your wife feels the need to run to her parents/friends and they support this behavior is a big red flag. Your wife's attitude towards intimacy is a red flag. Her crying after sex is another red flag. Our personalities/temperament are not honed in a vacuum, the people we are today are the result of decades of conditioning.

In addition to john's list above, alexithymia was a consideration hence the question re does she get excited easily. People with alexithymia have a difficulty experiencing emotions, verbalizing emotions and getting sexual pleasure from sex.

The prior skeletons in the closet due to csa is a common explanation for the intimacy avoidance that you describe with your wife. Either way, it would behoove you to find out as much as you can about your wife's childhood and the dynamics of her parents' relationship. It would not be a coincidence if their marriage also suffers from intimacy issues.

Was sex painful for her prior to the sessions 6 months ago?

 

[Keke24]

@georgieporgie, how exactly does your wife propose that you could make a better effort to connect with her? What were her suggestions?

Re her inability to give examples, don't waste time getting hung up on that. You just need to figure out the right approach to get her to express herself better. More probing and unexpected questions, more compassion and less impatience. It is frustrating, I understand but the existing approach isn't working. Change things up.

 

[Keke24]

Its not just examples of problems she doesn't give, she also hasn't given clear suggestions of what I can do better. I know it sounds crazy, so I'm having a look over my notes from the therapy. She basically said 3 things, all of them very vague:
1) I have difficulty understanding how to connect emotionally to her
2) I need to make room in the marriage for her needs
3) I need to accommodate her point of view.

Now all these things sound eminently reasonable. The fact she's saying these things makes me sound like a complete control freak. However I honestly can't understand how they relate to real life. I honestly think I do these things! Thats why I ask her for examples of me breaking these rules, so that I can understand how I'm not doing them properly.

The therapist was also struggling to understand. Unfortunately our efforts to probe to understand by getting examples just reinforces her belief that I can't understand emotions, and that the counsellor is the wrong person for her as he also doesn't understand her. She's stopped the joint therapy sessions, only carrying on with her personal therapist, which makes me feel she just wants to feel understood and validated by airing general complaints which are accepted as common problems, by airing them in a bubble i.e. disconnected from reality, where she can't be asked When did I do something which you interpreted as not making room for your needs, etc.

I would try to get her personal therapist to tell me more, but she's resisted all efforts I've made so far, and I've already been rapped on the knuckles in this forum for being too pushy with her. So I haven't a clue how to proceed. Perhaps the forum's ladies (anastasia and anon pink) will be able to shed light on what it might be, though it all seems like speculation frankly...

Hence the suggestion to stop focusing on her inability to give examples. You are spot on regarding her needing validation and understanding. Your therapist's inability to get her to verbalize examples is not proof that her complaints are unjustified. It could just mean that your therapist didn't have the right skill. I've been to 2 psychologists and a social worker before, only recently was a 3rd psychologist able to diagnose me with a personality disorder. And that's due in part to me seeking out one specializing in a disorder I was concerned I displayed symptoms of.

You recognize she needs validation, give it to her. Validation doesn't mean just listening and taking her word for everything. It means accepting first that her feelings are valid regardless of the fact that they may be based on poor interpretations of your behavior. The fact is that this is what she is feeling right now and you not believing her because she cannot give examples is not going to make her feelings go away. You must be realizing by now that this is only having the opposite effect and exacerbates her feelings.

Reel her in with compassion. Don't ask her questions to prove to her that her complaints have no substance, to put her on the spot. Ask her proving questions, let her read the concern in your voice. It could be that she thinks the examples from the past are petty so she's hesitant to come across as pretty, or she's not comfortable voicing her needs or she's never seen her parents be expressive/intimate with each other so she doesn't know how to verbalized what she needs...

It could be anything! This is your wife and you've now realized she has a problem communicating clearly, at some point you will need to accept this flaw and focus on helping her improve. You sound like a loving, caring husband so I'm certain you will find a way to work through this.

Good luck OP.

 

[Keke24]

Have had a brief look at no more mr nice guy, not sure how my wife would react if she came across it on my kindle... thanks for suggestion, will keep you posted. Anyone else out there with thoughts on this book? As it certainly seems unique

I read that book before suggesting it my ex. It was spot on to an almost scary extent. Ex was a nice guy through and through, I think the posters here would have been able to pick it up very quickly if he had posted based on his approach to women/relationships.

I don't quite get the sense that you are a nice guy as defined in the book. Nevertheless you could be demonstrating practices such as overt contracts that are discussed in the book.


It is still surprising to me that more research hasn't gone into the nice guy phenomenon because I think it can be quite detrimental for the man, woman and children involved. Although my experience was bad so I'm biased.

Didyou find it enlightening? See any familiar behaviors or interesting concepts?

 

[Keke24]

If she is being honest in what she's saying is the basic idea of the problem (no emotional connection), then yes it would be in her interest for her therapist to elaborate what made her feel like that, what things could change her view etc.

If the real reason there's a problem is different then that would explain why the therapist can't share with me, as you and @FrenchFry are implying. That's what I meant in the final paragraph of that post "Right now this is just reinforcing my feeling that there is some serious issue which my wife doesn't want me to be told about like CSA, so the therapist decided there's no point hearing my POV as that needs to be dealt with first." I.e. something private like CSA would explain both why the therapist can't tell me whats going on, and also why there's no point her hearing my point of view.

Hey @georgieporgie, can you shed some light on your relationship with your wife?

1. What do you typically argue about?
2. When's the most upset you've ever seen your wife?
3. How does she typically respond in disagreements between you?
4. Has she ever indicated specific things she'd like you to do/do differently (besides the vague "emotional connection")?
5. What about you, what are your least favourite characteristics of your wife?

 

[Keke24]

After thinking about it for a while I'm inclined to think you're right. Its very nice thinking about whats bothering her and trying to work on it etc as many people here have suggested (@Keke24, @Anon Pink and @anastasia6 main culprits). But on the other hand the way she handled it wasn't OK. So as well as trying to improve so she'll be happy, there also need to be some clear result of her actions. She's been told countless times these are red lines for me, and she could've handled the situation in a way I'd've found OK, e.g. telling me she wants to see a new marriage counsellor, we'd go to one who was a proper psychologist and see what he says without going behind my back and getting me pre-diagnosed. She chose to handle it a way which completely trampled on me, and is pretty much a betrayal as you wrote. So its great to be compassionate and understanding, but it needs to be backed up with something or it will just happen again.

The thing is it needs to be backed up with something which doesn't punish me more. A separation would be pretty embarrassing for me, whereas for her she would be able to bask in the attention and pity. Sure it would be unpleasant for her, but it'd be worse for me.

Any suggestions for some other forms of consequence? And what does everyone else think about the suggestion in general?

I don't see why establishing consequences for your wife repeatedly discussing personal issues behind your back negates the option to be compassionate towards her in an effort to figure out her issue with you and your emotional connection with her. Being compassionate doesn't mean no consequences, that's being codependent.