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Instead of issuing an ultimatum, it might be better to sign her up for a zumba, spinning or power step class. Weight can be unsightly but it having poor muscle tone that is unpleasant to look. A little flab is okay if a woman is in overall good health.

When you sleep at night do you cuddle? Could you hold her and whisper in her ear? Even if you tell her some jokes, it might be away to get closer to having sex.
 

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Discussion Starter #222
ThreeStrikes, I've answered nearly all of your questions before already. No need to rescue her, she was doing fine by herself as she lived by herself for about 15 months after the OM got arrested. In that time she opened up to me again as she emerged from the fog she was in with the controlling OM and chose to give our marriage another chance and come home. We're not in IC right now, but she has recently opened up to that possibility for herself. I was in IC for about 9 months after she moved out back in 2010, working to address a lot of issues I had going on. Prior to this past month or so, I was probably taking the lead on the reconciliation, but in the last few weeks I would say that role has reversed a bit as I chose to ease off on the pressure a bit in order to show that I'm not going to be the only one committed to the marriage for long. Again, please refer to the prior post where I asked for assistance on moving the marriage in the direction of reconciliation only. That's the only reason I'm here.

Angstire: Thank you for sharing, and I'm sorry again for your having had to go through that. In our case, I do believe it is mostly the school that is at fault for her increased feelings of stress and frustration at home. I say that because she was much happier, less stressed, more involved, etc. in the couple of months that she was home this summer before starting school up again in August. She is also right on the borderline of passing or failing, so each test she takes right now has the potential of preventing her from graduation and causing her to have to retake the entire program, so her stress level is likely higher than it has ever been. One way or the other, I'll know for sure ten days from now when her class graduates. So far she has only taken one half-dose of the mood relaxer, on Monday the day before her big test. (which she passed and was in a wonderful mood for the rest of the day)

As for Zoloft, like I mentioned before she has been on them for years without any trouble and I really do think they helped her. She just went off of them for the few years we were separated due to their expense and, for a while, her losing health insurance when I refused to pay for it for her. I'm definitely hopeful that they will help now and she is doing it the right way by slowly increasing the dosage over a period of four weeks rather than going on it all at once.
 

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Discussion Starter #223
Good lord Wilderness, you are a hard man to satisfy I suspect...

No I'm not going to demand that she lose 15-20 pounds. It's not like she promised to stay at 120lbs for the rest of her life when we got married, it's not like she's failed me or the marriage in some way by putting on a little weight. Heck I was 170lbs when we got married and no one expects me to go back to that. And she was 125lbs back in early 2010 which was before she was in school so she had lots more free time for staying active and worked at a job that provided free relatively healthy meals four out of five days a week. Besides, probably 10lbs of the 18lbs or so that she has gained since then came while she was with the OM.

Seriously, I've gotta ask, what man out there should ever feel rightfully entitled to issue an ultimatum to his wife to lose 15-20lbs, or else?! I can't imagine any marriage counselor advising that, ever.

LongWalk: Yep she has plans to start working out with a few of her classmates right after graduation, who have added a few pounds themselves over the last two years. They are all women btw. In the fall she and I both did a CrossFit workout program once a week as well, and intend to do it again in the spring. We have also started doing a lot more home cooked meals, especially lunches to take to school/work with us. All of that has been partly responsible for my having lost the 15lbs I did, where as for her, she just stopped gaining weight in that same timeframe but hasn't really been able to lose much more than a pound or so.

At night there is some limited cuddling. Limited meaning it's usually she or I just draping an arm over the other while going to sleep, until one of us roll over to really fall asleep. Not really full on spooning or anything, not full bodies pressed together completely, full pajamas on too. We do talk most nights and joke around some, but usually it's not a whispering thing. Both of those elements are new in the last two months or so though, so again, progress.
 

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I hope I'm wrong and that things continue to get better for you after she graduates. There's more to a relationship than sex, but once that is happening between you, you'll know things are on the mend.

My situation is not yours, but I see parallels. Best of luck and I hope the outcome is good for your whole family.
 

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May I ask a question? Who do you think is better looking objectively between you and your wife? Perhaps the solution to your problems is for you to hit the gym. Athol Kay would probably say that your marriage needs to be 'destabilized' before it can be saved. This happens naturally when you raise your sex rank higher than hers.
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May I ask a question? Who do you think is better looking objectively between you and your wife? Perhaps the solution to your problems is for you to hit the gym. Athol Kay would probably say that your marriage needs to be 'destabilized' before it can be saved. This happens naturally when you raise your sex rank higher than hers.
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She's clearly not into him. At all. We all see it, he doesn't. <shrug>

CD wants R. I think it's a pipe dream.

Good luck, fella.
 

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She's clearly not into him. At all. We all see it, he doesn't. <shrug>

CD wants R. I think it's a pipe dream.

Good luck, fella.
I actually think he does see it. He just wants R regardless.

CD - it's funny though, you've actually done the opposite of "the Fog" - you've convinced yourself that R by any means (or measure) necessary is worth it.

Regardless of how much I hope this works out for me, there's a part of me that wonders if you'll keep updating this thread if things go pear-shaped. Either way, this is certainly a case I'm interested in quite a bit. Almost emotionally vested if I'm being honest.
 

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Discussion Starter #228
May I ask a question? Who do you think is better looking objectively between you and your wife? Perhaps the solution to your problems is for you to hit the gym. Athol Kay would probably say that your marriage needs to be 'destabilized' before it can be saved. This happens naturally when you raise your sex rank higher than hers.
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Eh, I'd say it's an even match. I think most of my friends would call both of us a 7, but that's a guess. Neither of us are really overweight or any weird issues appearance-wise. I think I mentioned though that I read Athol Kay's book, found it very informative and have absolutely been working on improving my sex rank over the last two months or so. I haven't been able to hit the gym much, but I have lost about 15lbs so far, I eat better and I do some basic exercises at home. I definitely think I've improved a bit in that time, and I'm sure it'll help.
 

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Discussion Starter #229
I actually think he does see it. He just wants R regardless.

CD - it's funny though, you've actually done the opposite of "the Fog" - you've convinced yourself that R by any means (or measure) necessary is worth it.

Regardless of how much I hope this works out for me, there's a part of me that wonders if you'll keep updating this thread if things go pear-shaped. Either way, this is certainly a case I'm interested in quite a bit. Almost emotionally vested if I'm being honest.
I'm not interested in reconciling at any cost. In fact late last fall I had hired a lawyer, had all the paperwork drawn up, and (I'm not kidding here) on the very morning that the lawyer was going to file the divorce papers, I got a call from my company and was laid off. I spoke with my lawyer who advised me that being unemployed could certainly impact my case for a fair custody agreement, so she advised that I quickly try to find a new job before proceeding, if there was no other reason to hurry. It took me about two months to line up a good new job, but in that two months (and really the two or three weeks before getting laid off) my wife really started actively making it clear to me that she wanted us to have another chance together. She started calling and texting more often, spending more time with me and our daughter at our house, inviting me to outings with her friends and all of her family activities again, etc.

So by the time I started the new job in January, the lawyer called to ask if we were going to move forward with the paperwork and I asked her to put it on hold. I just had a hard time choosing to go ahead down that road when everything she was saying and showing me was that she was a new person from the woman who left years earlier and that she honestly wanted us to try again. It wasnt' a sudden turnaround by any stretch. In fact, when I asked her about this a few weeks ago, she said that from her perspective, she had decided to start working on reconciling beginning early last Summer, but I didn't get that impression from her until late October. I think if she had been far more sudden/direct about it, I probably would have been very suspicious of her intentions

So that brings me back to now. Again, my marriage isn't ideal right now because we aren't having sex yet. We also aren't fighting, she contributes to the household, I get a hug and kiss every morning before work/when I get home from work/before bed, she supports me in little ways just as I do for her, we have good communication on a daily basis which is improving every day, she is a good mom to our daughter, we do family activities together several times per week and in the month of December, every single night and we have fun together. I'd say just as importantly, we forgave each other a long time ago for our failings and since then I can now say that probably 90% of my trust in her has been restored. I do not feel the need to check on her all the time, wonder where she is or who she is talking to, I never really have moments of wondering if I can believe her when she tells me anything, and I haven't seen any of the bad habits that she was involved with before she left in 2010 for about two years now. I'm not a fool either, I do keep my eyes wide open for red flags and know how to spot the signs, but by this point I really don't think there will be any problems again.

So my present reality is that I am happy, for now. I'm happy because I can honestly say that I am pleased with about 80% of my marriage right now. Frankly, I'm not sure if most married individuals could say that at any given time right now. I believe that 10-15% of that 20% that I'm not yet satisfied with is related to the lack of sex/intimacy issues, but with the progress made in the last year or so, which has accelerated recently, I do believe that area will improve. If I find that the sex/intimacy issue is no better one year from today, then I'm sure my feelings will certainly be different. That leaves 5-10% that, as I think I explained yesterday in response to Mr. Blunt's comment, that I just accept will probably never be great. With that said, I feel confident that I could be happy with 90+% marriage satisfaction.
 
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"With me, it is sort of like being asked to try to fall back in love with your former abuser"

There in lies your problem. Her view of you is former abuser not husband. You might think you are making progress but if this is still her view of you after all these months ,you are going nowhere slowly .

What are you doing to sort her libido issues .

I just had to drop this scripture because you are really living it ,keep the good work

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
 

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Discussion Starter #231
Well, I think she's become quite comfortable with me in most respects. At the same time, I think she's been betrayed so many times now by literally every man she has ever become romantically involved with that she has just closed herself off emotionally as a sort of defensive mechanism. Sexually speaking, she's felt nothing but used by every man. Lied to, fooled, manipulated, etc. I know for a while before we began our R, she would frequently have lots of "man hating" conversation with girlfriends, and I can't completely blame her.

I can't remember how long ago I hypothesized that she might just see me as her "former abuser" but I'm not really sure if that is the case. That might add to it, but truthfully more and more I have been thinking that the sexual relationship has been a problem not just because of how I failed her years ago, but simply because I am a man, or even more specifically, simply because I desire her sexually at all. I think she's just become so incredibly protective, as a natural response to wanting to prevent being hurt yet again, that she's distrustful of opening up sexually to anyone. Taking that defensive measure a step further, she avoids anything that could possibly LEAD to a sexual situation. Examples: Cuddling, spooning, allowing me to even see her naked, etc. Basically imagine anything that has ever turned a man on, and she probably avoids it whenever possible.

One thing I decided to try after Conrad pointed me to a thread by MEM11363 on Mark72's "Desperate" thread is lowering the emotional "thermostat" of the relationship. I view it as sort of a semi-180. For me, my wife and I are getting along very well, building trust, working together, etc., but I've been extremely dissatisfied not just with our lack of a sexual relationship, but with the emotional/intimacy level overall. So back on December 19th, I decided to immediately cease any form of emotional/intimate gesture of any kind. I'm still nice to her, helpful, willing to talk/listen, do things together if asked, etc., but I'm not longer saying "I love you" or Goodbye before work, Goodnight before bed, not gesturing for or requesting hugs/kisses of any kind, no touch of any kind in fact. Basically, if it would be awkward/wrong/gross for me to do it with a male friend, then I'm not doing it with my wife. Like living as a roommate intentionally.

I guess the goal of the plan is to bring down the emotional temperature of the relationship to a level where even she desires a little more warmth, to see if she will start pursuing it instead of just me, and then maybe raise it from there. During the course of this experiment, there were several clear cut "Intimacy should happen" days as well, namely our 10-year wedding anniversary (!!!) on Dec. 20th, Christmas Day, and New Years Eve (Kiss at midnight?).

Now a little over three weeks in, I've held to it. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but there's been virtually zero contact. No hugs, no kisses, no nothing really, until a few days ago. It's a small thing, and could be nothing, but a few nights ago in bed after we turned out the lights and rolled over to go to sleep, she reached out and put her hand on my back and simply said Goodnight. I responded Goodnight as well (I'll respond, but haven't initiated it since the 19th) and she then removed her hand to go to sleep. Honestly, that might be the first time she's initiated any form of touch since the R started last summer.

So is that a big thing? A small thing? I don't know. Today I came home for lunch and when I was getting up to leave for work, she actually got up looking as though she was coming to give me a hug. I continued my motion to grab my coat and headed for the door. (I figured that I wanted to see her complete the motion of her coming to me for the hug, rather than meeting her half way) When she saw me heading for the door though, she sat back down, maybe looking a tiny bit dejected. I don't want her to feel rejected, and I sort of feel bad about not meeting her halfway, but she did definitely get up for the hug. (She stood up from the table, took a step or two towards me and after I turned towards the door, she stepped back to sit down again while watching me. Did nothing else while she was up)

So who knows how this will play out. I'd like to give it 30 days (to 1/19) but after that, I'm not sure what the next step will be. Sitting her down to tell her what I have been doing seems like a very beta thing to me. I'm hopeful that I'll see some more progress in the next week to help me figure that out. Heck, if this goes on too much longer she'll probably start to think that I am cheating on her, if she isn't already wondering about that.
 

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Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Your wife is not attracted to you. This has nothing at all to do with the reasons you describe. If those reasons were valid, why was she able to have repeated sex with a child molester?

Why are you not holding your wife accountable? She is obligated to have sex with her husband, it's a part of the marriage contract.
 

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Discussion Starter #233
Wilderness, I see that your account says "Banned". I'm not sure if that means permanently or why it was banned, but anyways...

Maybe she isn't attracted to me, I don't know. I firmly believe that she used to be for many years, but maybe all the emotional damage of the last few years, inflicted by me, herself, POSOM, etc., has made her incapable of being attracted to me now.

Or maybe it's not an attraction issue and it's just an issue of all of that emotional damage making her struggle with showing affection right now. I think I've said it before, but I get the impression that if she and I weren't in a relationship, that she wouldn't be interested in pursuing anyone else right now. She knows it herself, that she is just not capable of meeting all of the expectations of being a wife right now. She's even said as much to me directly, and that I can either accept her as she is now and work with her to rebuild the trust necessary for her to be a loving wife again, or move on if I am unwilling to wait for her.

And I can't say this enough. You can't just go home to a woman whom you and others have put through emotional hell for years and demand sex based on the fact that she once signed a marriage certificate with you. A weak-willed woman might give in once or twice but the marriage will be doomed if you treat your spouse like that. A strong willed woman will tell you to go to hell and file for divorce. My wife would be the latter. I agree that sex is an absolutely necessary component of a healthy marriage, but there has to be some flexibility when you have extreme circumstances like this, especially if you are the cause of a sizable portion of those issues.
 

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wilderness, i see that your account says "banned". I'm not sure if that means permanently or why it was banned, but anyways...

And i can't say this enough. You can't just go home to a woman whom you and others have put through emotional hell for years and demand sex based on the fact that she once signed a marriage certificate with you.
thank you!
 

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Wilderness, I see that your account says "Banned". I'm not sure if that means permanently or why it was banned, but anyways...

Maybe she isn't attracted to me, I don't know. I firmly believe that she used to be for many years, but maybe all the emotional damage of the last few years, inflicted by me, herself, POSOM, etc., has made her incapable of being attracted to me now.

Or maybe it's not an attraction issue and it's just an issue of all of that emotional damage making her struggle with showing affection right now. I think I've said it before, but I get the impression that if she and I weren't in a relationship, that she wouldn't be interested in pursuing anyone else right now. She knows it herself, that she is just not capable of meeting all of the expectations of being a wife right now. She's even said as much to me directly, and that I can either accept her as she is now and work with her to rebuild the trust necessary for her to be a loving wife again, or move on if I am unwilling to wait for her.

And I can't say this enough. You can't just go home to a woman whom you and others have put through emotional hell for years and demand sex based on the fact that she once signed a marriage certificate with you. A weak-willed woman might give in once or twice but the marriage will be doomed if you treat your spouse like that. A strong willed woman will tell you to go to hell and file for divorce. My wife would be the latter. I agree that sex is an absolutely necessary component of a healthy marriage, but there has to be some flexibility when you have extreme circumstances like this, especially if you are the cause of a sizable portion of those issues.
I don't believe that you put her through emotional hell for years. And even if you did, you have been reconciling for MONTHS without sex. MONTHS. Ridiculous. I think yours is the saddest story on TAM, and you don't even see it.
 

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She came back to your in search of what exactly?

If the answer is a return to best part of your relationship before you tried to make her more interested in sex. You may have gotten there. The LD normality has returned.

CD,

Are you working out and in good shape. Mach's advice about the physical attributes affecting the liminal desire of women is probably sound, don't you think?

Can you make her laugh?
 

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Discussion Starter #238
Wilderness, we'll agree to disagree on what I put her through or not. I also understand that she failed me in many ways too, and has apologized to me for it as well. As far as how long it takes to heal, the best marriage counselor we had once told us that it generally takes about as long as the bad treatment lasted, so several years in this case. Granted, I don't want it to last that long, and I don't believe I'll be able to actually give it that much time either.

In any case, I agree something needs to change or accelerate. For roughly the past month, I've been trying the strategy of lowering the relational "thermostat" of the marriage. Just not pursuing her at all, not seeking any form of physical affection, verbal emotional support, etc., and rarely offering any either unless sought. I guess the idea was that if I like it to be 85 degree's and she wants it to be 75 degrees, then my reducing it to 60 degree's might make her uncomfortable and want to seek me out to raise it up from there. So far I don't think that's really happened. She's seemed mostly content with it all, though I do think we're getting along a little better as a result. But there hasn't really been any success in trying to trigger her to pursue me or seek physical affection.

LongWalk: Yes I am still getting into better shape. Not really having much time to work out, but I've been losing weight steadily and am below 200lbs for the first time in a few years. (I think I peaked at 215lbs, so I was never enormous) I've also been actively committed to more alpha style activities at home by fixing up the house, building a bathroom in our basement, performing car maintenance and repairs for both our aging cars, etc. I hope to be able to resume some excercise when the basement project is complete.

As far as what she came back for... I think she came back because she felt that it was my horrific attitude and behavior issues that broke the marriage in the first place. Having seen over our three year separation that I had proven that those issues were a thing of the past, I think she felt like she could return and that our marriage would naturally morph into a wonderful relationship, as it was when we got married. I think the problem is that she now carries so much emotional baggage, from our prior marriage, from the two long term affairs, childhood issues, etc. that she is just incapable of allowing herself to be vulnerable enough to put in an effort, to open herself up, to allow herself to have emotion for me again, etc. Honestly I can't tell if she is satisfied with where our marriage sits today or if she too yearns for more but just doesn't know how to change anything. Lately I've been thinking she is carrying a lot of guilt, for her past and for the present, knowing that she isn't meeting my needs. She's incredibly sensitive to feelings of guilt and shame, and can quickly lose control of her emotions if she feels criticized or judged in some way.

That is what makes all of this nearly impossible to discuss with her. I can't just sit down and try to have a conversation about this with her, like asking her what she thinks is wrong, what is bothering her, why she thinks she struggles with expressing any emotional or physical affection for me. I've tried lots of different approaches, but they nearly always end in her becoming enraged, bursting into tears or usually both, and only if we have at least an hour to go from stand-offish -> anger -> defensive rage -> crying/tears -> silent anger/stand-offish -> more tears.
 

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Discussion Starter #239
Also yes I do make her laugh from time to time, but not as often as I used to. It's difficult when there just aren't a lot of opportunities for smiling, or she doesn't feel comfortable being touched, etc.

One area I struggle with is that I'd love to compliment her more, tell her she is beautiful, leave her notes or cards, gifts even, etc. I think her self esteem is so low that not only does she usually react with indifference or mild to severe annoyance to these things, but often she just gets frustrated when I try anything. She says she has gained about 10 pounds in the last 7 or 8 months since coming home and constantly talks about not being able to fit into her jeans or other clothes. She frequently stresses about not doing as well in her classes as she'd like to (passing, but often it's very close). She hates her hair, body, etc. I think that's pretty normal for most women so I try to do the typical guy thing of reminding her that she's beautiful, smart, sexy, etc., but it doesn't seem appreciated or desired at all. She often acts like I am mocking her even.

So I don't know if she just doesn't believe me when I say those things (which honestly seems very possible) or if any act of kindness on my part triggers her guilt/shame feelings or ... who knows.
 

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Wilderness, we'll agree to disagree on what I put her through or not. I also understand that she failed me in many ways too, and has apologized to me for it as well. .
It doesn't matter whether we agree or not. No man should put up with what you've put up with and what you are putting up with. It doesn't matter what happened. This is so far outside of the realm of acceptable that it has reached the point of ridiculousness. Do you not see that?


In any case, I agree something needs to change or accelerate. For roughly the past month, I've been trying the strategy of lowering the relational "thermostat" of the marriage. Just not pursuing her at all, not seeking any form of physical affection, verbal emotional support, etc., and rarely offering any either unless sought. I guess the idea was that if I like it to be 85 degree's and she wants it to be 75 degrees, then my reducing it to 60 degree's might make her uncomfortable and want to seek me out to raise it up from there. So far I don't think that's really happened. She's seemed mostly content with it all, though I do think we're getting along a little better as a result. But there hasn't really been any success in trying to trigger her to pursue me or seek physical affection.
With all due respect, I believe this is on you. If you look back in this thread, many of us encouraged you to stop making things so easy on your wife. We encouraged you, for lack of a better term, to increase the relationship temperature. You said you agreed, but then responded by doing the opposite. This is classic nice guy behavior. In Dr. Glover's book, No More Mr. Nice Guy http://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf he refers often to this dynamic. The dynamic of doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.


As far as what she came back for... I think she came back because she felt that it was my horrific attitude and behavior issues that broke the marriage in the first place. Having seen over our three year separation that I had proven that those issues were a thing of the past, I think she felt like she could return and that our marriage would naturally morph into a wonderful relationship, as it was when we got married.
In my opinion you have a severely distorted viewpoint of this. The most likely reason she came back is that she had no better options and was stuck financially. She needed someone to finance her living expenses while she pursued her education- and guess what, that's YOU. Look not at her words, but at her actions. They are screaming that she was never truly interested in reconciling with you.

I think the problem is that she now carries so much emotional baggage, from our prior marriage, from the two long term affairs, childhood issues, etc. that she is just incapable of allowing herself to be vulnerable enough to put in an effort, to open herself up, to allow herself to have emotion for me again, etc. Honestly I can't tell if she is satisfied with where our marriage sits today or if she too yearns for more but just doesn't know how to change anything. Lately I've been thinking she is carrying a lot of guilt, for her past and for the present, knowing that she isn't meeting my needs. She's incredibly sensitive to feelings of guilt and shame, and can quickly lose control of her emotions if she feels criticized or judged in some way.
If this was truly the case, she would not have been able to have repeated sex with a child molester. I don't think it's so much that she is 'sensitive' to feelings of guilt and shame, it's that she is manipulating you with her feelings!

That is what makes all of this nearly impossible to discuss with her. I can't just sit down and try to have a conversation about this with her, like asking her what she thinks is wrong, what is bothering her, why she thinks she struggles with expressing any emotional or physical affection for me. I've tried lots of different approaches, but they nearly always end in her becoming enraged, bursting into tears or usually both, and only if we have at least an hour to go from stand-offish -> anger -> defensive rage -> crying/tears -> silent anger/stand-offish -> more tears
In my opinion this is exactly what needs to be done! Put her on the spot. You've done and are doing what you need to do, she is not. Why not? If you push her enough and make things uncomfortable enough for her, you are either going to get to rejection quickly or you she is going to leave. That's what HAS to happen, because things are never going to change as is.

Please, sir, carefully consider these words. I feel for you, I really do. This is like watching a train wreck from afar. It's painful to watch.
 
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