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I think this is a great example of the different perspectives not understanding what the other is actually saying. As insightful as this is, this is not really an explanation for the actual "you did it for him, but not for me" situation.

A closer analog would be if Tom had said he wouldn't do it for you because he hated oral, or that he wasn't really into oral, and didn't like it with his ex wife, or you just picked up on him not being really into it, and so you take it off the table because you were understanding and didn't want him to be doing something he didn't really enjoy specifically and exclusively for your pleasure. And then some time later, you find out that not only did he love it with his ex, and did it all the time, and actively and enthusiastically pursued oral on her, and by all accounts he was amazing at it, her vagina was better than unicorns and puppies.

Perhaps a better way to frame the question, more accurate to what is actually being asked is "what do their other lovers have that I don't?"
If you find someone hotter than someone else, it is just easier to get worked up for all kinds of action. That is a pretty stark reality.

It is also maybe more prevalent among the less mature?

There isn't much I wouldn't do for a partner to blow her mind but when I was younger, I experienced some situations like this.

I was involved with a wonderful woman who was taller than Uma and just as hot with bigger, nicer, breasts. I actually really cared about her. Due to immaturity, I left her for a belly dancer who was crazy hot.

Sex with the Amazon was wonderful and nicely erotic but I never went down on her.

Sex with the belly dancer was off the charts hot and I did things with her that I never did with anyone before including oral.

I didn't perform oral sex again for anyone until I met Mrs. Conan and she had to ask and teach me how to perfect it.

I'm a lot more grown up now and would do anything I have done in the past with a current lover.

I honestly don't personally understand doing differently unless there is some health issue associated with a certain sex act.
 

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I didn't say wasn't attracted, I said more attracted. Distinct difference. For me, at least, sexual attraction isn't a simple yes-no. There are levels of attraction from neutral to highly attracted and everything in between. With men I am highly attracted to I will naturally be more into the sex and will desire all the naughty things. With someone I am, say, moderately attracted to I am naturally going to be less fired up and be less interested in going beyond vanilla.
Thank you for saying this. Sexual chemistry is just weird that way. I honestly thing having two different partners doing the exact same thing to you will evoke a different reaction if you're more attracted to one than the other.
 

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I think this is a great example of the different perspectives not understanding what the other is actually saying. As insightful as this is, this is not really an explanation for the actual "you did it for him, but not for me" situation.

A closer analog would be if Tom had said he wouldn't do it for you because he hated oral, or that he wasn't really into oral, and didn't like it with his ex wife, or you just picked up on him not being really into it, and so you take it off the table because you were understanding and didn't want him to be doing something he didn't really enjoy specifically and exclusively for your pleasure. And then some time later, you find out that not only did he love it with his ex, and did it all the time, and actively and enthusiastically pursued oral on her, and by all accounts he was amazing at it, her vagina was better than unicorns and puppies.

Perhaps a better way to frame the question, more accurate to what is actually being asked is "what do their other lovers have that I don't?"
Agreed, this is about three different things:

For the OP, it just doesn't seem that he wanted what other guys got. I don't see this as the classic "you did it for him but not for me" situation. If I don't WANT anal sex, then it doesn't matter if my wife will or won't do it with me (although she DID offer it, which matters).

The @MJJEAN situation is pretty much what we're talking about and pretty much what many guys fear. She did it for HIM because HE was a better lover and she was more attracted.

Nothing wrong with that.

And there are plenty of good reasons for committing to someone who you're less attracted to. The important (often overlooked) thing is to make sure that your committed partner understands this and accepts it.

As far as:

I think I understand what the OP is saying.

I'm more submissive (passive, if you wish). On another thread, someone used the description "Rag Doll" which is probably pretty close to me. But I've always been up for just about anything. I like the guy to be in charge of me and by (my) definition, you go with it when someone else is in charge.

Anyway, what resonates with me in this post is how you talk about the "disgusting perverts". Many of the guys I was with were like this. Just wanted to do more and more and have me do more and more. Go right to the limits and then push them. It's like they take you where you never thought you'd go and certainly never WANT to go. But you do.

I know most of these guys were just users and doing it to satisfy their own kinks or whatever but regardless of that, it makes you feel wanted. Like they get so wrapped up in having sex with you.

The last thing you said is probably the most interesting. You feeling that Tom was doing things to please you while the other two (kinkier ones) just did it to enjoy themselves. I TOTALLY get that. It is SO much hotter when guys appear to be doing things to please themselves. I once had sex with a guy who, before he went down on me, said "I'm going to make you feel so good". Ugghh. Noooooooo. That was kind of a turn off for me. I had to pretend that I didn't hear that but you can't unhear it LOL. I suspect that a lot of women would say that they are not like this but who knows maybe there are a lot of us like me and the OP. But if you do meet one of us, I guess the lesson is to just think of yourself and that will take us where we want to be. For me, the best sex partner is one who knows what he wants and goes for it. Not one that is focused on my needs. Yeah, that sounds counter-intuitive but hey, maybe I'm weird. If it sounds too weird, just think about where it intersects. There are BAD partners who only think of themselves but for me the BEST partners only think of themselves. Just "ignoring" my needs is certainly not all it takes. Exactly as the OP says, when they are genuinely getting freaky without it feeling like they are just doing things for you, it feels like they are sooo into having sex with YOU. So just go for it and don't worry about me. If you're really into what you're doing, it will be amazing for me.
There are apparently many women whose sexuality works this way. Again, whatever floats one's boat is okay with me.

But a couple of things of interest to me are...

I've read a lot lately about how, for many women, their desire is driven by the man's desire for them. Also, that there's often little connection between what drives their sexual desire and what actually gives them orgasms.

I've also read that women can be uncomfortable with the focus being on satisfying them (which ties in perfectly with the above. But most of what I hear on TAM is about how if women have orgasms they'll love sex and how men need to focus on the women's pleasure more than their own.

I know that the idea is that the man is dominant in the bedroom but not outside of it. Is this really likely? It would seem as though a guy who pursues only his own interests in the bedroom would tend to act the same outside of it or vice versa. Isn't a guy who is genuinely interested in his partner's happiness going to have a problem focusing only on his own desires when sex is involved? Doesn't this situation fit pretty neatly into the stereotype of women are more attracted to bad guys? (I'm not saying that they shouldn't be, just noting that this seems to add credence to the popular wisdom).

I know that the idea is that, as long as the woman feels "safe" then this okay, but I'm not so sure that women into this type of scenario only engage in it when in safe, trusted relationships. So, while "safe" may be a bonus, it doesn't seem to be a requirement. I also can imagine that situations that are "too safe" could lose some of the necessary edge.

What about women who may be turned on with sex like this but don't realize it (or would rather they didn't)? My wife has fantasies along these lines and isn't entirely happy about it.

Of course, what men hear constantly is that we need to make sure that we know what our partner wants and yet, in many cases they seem to want us to ignore what they want and focus on what we want.

I know that there's a world of difference between a first meeting and a committed relationship. But, how does the transition from one to the other actually work?
 

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I am not passive. But from my viewpoint it takes 2 to make sex great.
Not to toot my own horn but I’m good in bed. Tom (third boyfriend), told me I was hands down the best sex he has ever had, and it’s not because I am skillful, it’s because I LOVE sex. In the beginning of the relationship the sex was awesome, but I didn’t realize it at the time but it was bc I was carrying it. He told me his ex use to tell him he has a low sex drive (he does). He also told me that he never once went down on his ex girlfriend of 6 years because she was unhygienic.

Anyway, jt isn’t the mans job and I didn’t mean for it to come across the way. I think that when your with someone who is equally and genuinely enjoying sex, it makes you feel more comfortable, and you can enjoy it more. It’s like you are allowed to feel comfortable in your own skin with your likes and dislikes because they are shared. With Tom, I wasn’t going to grab his head and shove him in my vagina when he went down on me bc I know he would be horrified. With my first two partners this was a normal occurrence.

This is not about being one genders fault. It’s about sexual incompatibility. And when your with someone who you are compatible with, it makes you feel more like yourself and less inhibited. Because at the end of the day, we don’t want to do something our partner doesn’t like, so we are inhibited.

Some people get grossed out Easy. Some people need every t crossed before they have sex. Some people don’t like bodily fluids. It is what it is, and although most of us can fake it in the beginning, the truth eventually comes out. Some people are good actors. And it’s not about “being turned on enough”. That’s offensive. Why be with someone if your not turned on by them, especially during the dating part. People who say... well she doesn’t do it for you because you don’t turn her on is offensive and rude. And chances are, she/he is done faking liking it.
Embedded within your post is the thought that people are incapable of sexually evolving. For some that may be the case, for others growth is possible.

In my perspective most people take sex and each sexual act way too seriously. The wild woman in you seems to like to just give it a whirl and see what happens. Tom seems to be concerned with his "performance." AKA performance anxiety.

You might want to figure out how to "play" with Tom in a non-threatening way at sex. He probably is capable of changing somewhat if you work with him and work on yourself. When my wife and I were in sex therapy, the ST suggested we share with each other the 3 best sex experiences of our lives and try to practice them with each other until our partner became our best sexual experience of our life. The idea is to bond and build your relationship throughout your marriage. But that takes work on the part of both and it takes the willingness to communicate and become emotionally vulnerable.

Good luck and thank you for sharing. You might talk to Tom about going to see a sex therapist so you can share some of your fantasies and desires. If he can become comfortable enough to open up, you might find out he is kinkier than you may have thought.
 

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Girl, thanks for posting your thoughts. I appreciate the sexual insight from the female point of view. Especially since it’s been over a decade since I last dated. I have some preferences, but matching bra and panties is not one of them. I lol reading that!
Are you sure about that? I’d make the argument they’re matching if they’re missing.
 

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In my opinion your “kink” is to see your partner being pleased. I think that’s awesome. There is nothing better in the world than seeing your partner having pleasure from you. And I’m sure you know that he probably would love nothing more than for you to be pleased as well.


I’m glad you mentioned the disgusting pervert part and men just using women to push their limits. This never occurred to me because I have such a strong personality (even though I enjoy being submissive), I have very hard boundaries that I won’t cross. It’s just like when mark told me to finger my butt... ah hell no. Next.

I can see how things can go bad. But I think it’s important not to be a push over, to know your boundaries, to be confident enough to say stop or no, and to advocate for yourself.

People, especially women need to be a active participant in their sex life and In their life In general. There was a feminist book called yes means yes. I loved it bc we always talk about no means no, but women need to be active participants because by not speaking up, we are giving mixed signals. Oh I didn’t really want to do that, but I wanted to make him happy or whatever is bull crap. And no man I wants to do something that their wife doesn’t want to be done to her, so speak up women! Men aren’t mind readers. And when we talk about pushing the boundary... I’m a very black and white thinker so I don’t really get that. I see a boundary as a line. Period. Also, just because I do certain things doesn’t mean I always want to do them. If I don’t feel like doing something I won’t do it.
I think we're very different and that's Ok. It takes all kinds. I don't label myself as feminist or anti-feminist. I just am me. I'll speak up if I want to speak up. I'll look out for that book yes means yes but always talking about what I want and don't want is not really my thing. I'm introverted and i don't always want to be explaining things to guys or to be looked to actively engage in how things feel. Actually, i don't know if that's because i'm an introvert generally or just a sexual preference. I also don't see it as a flaw where I need to "learn to speak up". I don't want that. BTW, i'm not at all saying that I'm afraid to say "no" if it's really something that i don't want. Obviously that's not a good thing but that's not what i'm talking about. I interpret your point to be more about being on the front foot with communicating what you want and don't want with sex. Of course that can be a very good thing for some but it's just not for me.

I'm not sure I can explain this in the right way but hopefully some people can understand. Sex has always been really intense emotionally for me. Being a very private and introverted person in real life, it's seriously "invasive" for me. Like an "invasion" of my space and of the "wall" that I keep around me. I'm a pretty sexual person and I had sex with a lot of guys before meeting my husband. But "opening up" and getting close to people, especially strangers, does not come easy for me. So part of my coping mechanism (if that's the right way to put it) is to keep very private even when I was doing the most intimate things. I could be naked and the walls that I normally have around me were completely torn away, completely exposed. But one thing that I kept private was my feelings. Very guarded. I just wanted the guy to be in charge of me. I don't want to be constantly giving feedback. I don't want to initiate things that "i want to do". I don't like dinner parties where you have to "engage" actively in conversation. During sex I don't want pressure to "engage" by giving all kinds of signals and verbal feedback, etc. Don't want it. While i'm exposed in every way physically, I want to keep the emotional walls up. Let me process it and feel what I feel privately. I would even hide when I had orgasms. I wanted those to just for me. Private. With these guys, I gave them all of my body but I want to keep my feelings to myself. Sometimes I would close my eyes and go into my own little world. Let him do what he wants and I'll enjoy it in my own private world where it's just me. i didn't do this but I always thought it would be great to wear a mask that I could hide behind. I don't think being an "active participant" is for everyone. i love to people watch. I observe. i don't want to "actively engage" in conversation much of the time. Why is that so wrong in sex?

I don't want to be constantly looked at for come kind of response. I'm not saying that I don't respond but I'd rather have the guy just focus on his own needs and not be focused on mine. If he's focused on mine, he'll be constantly looking at, interpreting, analyzing my response and feedback to everything. The OP talked about her past partners so that's what i'm talking about in terms of my preferences. obviously with my husband there is trust and it's different. I'm still private and still keep up some walls but nothing like what i'm talking about with random guys from the past.

I hope this makes sense and i'm sure some will say that there's something wrong with me that I should have worked on. Or that it sounds "sad". I'm just a private person. An introvert. That's how I am.
 

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There are apparently many women whose sexuality works this way. Again, whatever floats one's boat is okay with me.

But a couple of things of interest to me are...

I've read a lot lately about how, for many women, their desire is driven by the man's desire for them. Also, that there's often little connection between what drives their sexual desire and what actually gives them orgasms.

I've also read that women can be uncomfortable with the focus being on satisfying them (which ties in perfectly with the above. But most of what I hear on TAM is about how if women have orgasms they'll love sex and how men need to focus on the women's pleasure more than their own.

I know that the idea is that the man is dominant in the bedroom but not outside of it. Is this really likely? It would seem as though a guy who pursues only his own interests in the bedroom would tend to act the same outside of it or vice versa. Isn't a guy who is genuinely interested in his partner's happiness going to have a problem focusing only on his own desires when sex is involved? Doesn't this situation fit pretty neatly into the stereotype of women are more attracted to bad guys? (I'm not saying that they shouldn't be, just noting that this seems to add credence to the popular wisdom).

I know that the idea is that, as long as the woman feels "safe" then this okay, but I'm not so sure that women into this type of scenario only engage in it when in safe, trusted relationships. So, while "safe" may be a bonus, it doesn't seem to be a requirement. I also can imagine that situations that are "too safe" could lose some of the necessary edge.

What about women who may be turned on with sex like this but don't realize it (or would rather they didn't)? My wife has fantasies along these lines and isn't entirely happy about it.

Of course, what men hear constantly is that we need to make sure that we know what our partner wants and yet, in many cases they seem to want us to ignore what they want and focus on what we want.

I know that there's a world of difference between a first meeting and a committed relationship. But, how does the transition from one to the other actually work?
I can only speak for myself and I'll just say it directly - I don't need guys to focus on me and make pointed efforts to make me orgasm in order to orgasm. it happens easily for me. I have no idea what other women like or need to orgasm. I'm sure many women like guys to "work on them" with an objective of making them orgasm. Aligned with what I said in my last post, I don't want a guy making an effort to make me have an orgasm and then try to see if I am. Waiting for me to orgasm so he can feel like he did his job and gave me pleasure. Noooo. I HATE that. HATE it. If he's trying too hard, i'll just shut down anyway and I won't have an orgasm in that situation.
 

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It makes sense that people will be much more open/comfortable in situations where there is less insecurity. The higher the level of compatibility, the less unknowns, the higher the feelings of security, the freer we feel we can be ourselves and not fail (however we define that).

Tom was not sexually compatible to you so there were lots of unknowns and lots of insecurity. I don't think there is anything Tom could have done to fix this.

Personally, I think sexual compatibility is either there or it's not. This is one of those things that can't be taught.
I would substitute sexual chemistry for compatibility.

It is more descriptive. :)



L-
 

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I can only speak for myself and I'll just say it directly - I don't need guys to focus on me and make pointed efforts to make me orgasm in order to orgasm. it happens easily for me. I have no idea what other women like or need to orgasm. I'm sure many women like guys to "work on them" with an objective of making them orgasm. Aligned with what I said in my last post, I don't want a guy making an effort to make me have an orgasm and then try to see if I am. Waiting for me to orgasm so he can feel like he did his job and gave me pleasure. Noooo. I HATE that. HATE it. If he's trying too hard, i'll just shut down anyway and I won't have an orgasm in that situation.
Aw, this is a shame.

Hmm. :frown2:

For men, there can be this 'mental orgasm' for them.

Seeing their lady get off is such an added 'spurt' to a man's ego. :grin2:
 

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Buddy400 said:
And there are plenty of good reasons for committing to someone who you're less attracted to. The important (often overlooked) thing is to make sure that your committed partner understands this and accepts it.
I agree that there are many that commit to people that they are less attracted to than previous lovers, but I can't think of any scenario where that other person is told. It is often overlooked as you say. I suppose if you're like 30 to 40 years older than your partner you kind of know the deal, but I think most people don't know. I also wonder if they did know, would they even want to be in the relationship? Hey honey, "I love you but I'm nowhere near as turned on by you as Bob". Not sure most would choose to move forward knowing that.
 

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I would substitute sexual chemistry for compatibility.

It is more descriptive. <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" >:)</a>



L-
Why do you feel that chemistry is more descriptive than compatibility?

I associate chemistry with subjectiveness. It's all very wishy washy. Whereas compatibility is kind of objective. Two people either are compatible or they are not.

I think chemistry gets someone to agree to sex. I think compatibility is what keeps them coming back for more.
 

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I agree that there are many that commit to people that they are less attracted to than previous lovers, but I can't think of any scenario where that other person is told. It is often overlooked as you say. I suppose if you're like 30 to 40 years older than your partner you kind of know the deal, but I think most people don't know. I also wonder if they did know, would they even want to be in the relationship? Hey honey, "I love you but I'm nowhere near as turned on by you as Bob". Not sure most would choose to move forward knowing that.
Of course the other person isn't told. They know exactly how the other person would feel, and it's not that they wouldn't want to hurt the other persons feelings so much as they wouldn't want to risk losing the benefits of the relationship.
 

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While i'm exposed in every way physically, I want to keep the emotional walls up. Let me process it and feel what I feel privately. I would even hide when I had orgasms. I wanted those to just for me. Private. With these guys, I gave them all of my body but I want to keep my feelings to myself. Sometimes I would close my eyes and go into my own little world. Let him do what he wants and I'll enjoy it in my own private world where it's just me. ...
Yeah. I think I understand what you're saying, and if I understand right, this is the same as my ex wife, who wanted to be eyes closed, in her own world, during sex. I never felt there was any emotional connection there. Indeed, she could never talk about feelings at any time - I don't know whether that applies to you. She was a wonderful person, but we ended up divorced.

Whether you would want to "work on" it would have to be 100% your decision.
 

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Yeah. I think I understand what you're saying, and if I understand right, this is the same as my ex wife, who wanted to be eyes closed, in her own world, during sex. I never felt there was any emotional connection there. Indeed, she could never talk about feelings at any time - I don't know whether that applies to you. She was a wonderful person, but we ended up divorced.

Whether you would want to "work on" it would have to be 100% your decision.
I'm still a private person and not very "expressive" but, as I mentioned, I can lower my emotional walls with my husband. Not eliminated altogether but more open. Mostly I was talking about "just sex". i do try to connect more openly with my husband when we have sex.

Some people don't open up about things very easily whether it's with sex or anything else. Other people are an open book. They walk into a room and everyone knows what they are thinking and feeling. nothing is left unsaid. A comment for everything.
 

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I like a man that knows what he likes and verbalized it. For example, look at me when you cum, say my name, turn on your back. Or whatever. I’m the same way. To me, it’s not kinky it’s active participation.
OH yeah! that's the ticket!
 

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Why do you feel that chemistry is more descriptive than compatibility?

I associate chemistry with subjectiveness. It's all very wishy washy. Whereas compatibility is kind of objective. Two people either are compatible or they are not.

I think chemistry gets someone to agree to sex. I think compatibility is what keeps them coming back for more.
Not bad. I'll add that great chemistry definitely helps with compatibility most times and definitely doesn't hurt.:smile2:
 

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Not bad. I'll add that great chemistry definitely helps with compatibility most times and definitely doesn't hurt.:)
Chemistry definitely can't hurt but I don't think it helps with compatibility.

I have gone on dates where I felt amazing chemistry with the guy (laughing, flirting, touching). Unfortunately, we were no where near on the same page sexually speaking. Although they were sexy and fun, I didn't have sex with any of them. Just discussing our likes/dislikes and kissing/heavy petting told me everything I needed to know.
 

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I think the emotional connection during sex can make all the difference if you're dealing with an otherwise skilled lover. My current guy is very similar in bed to my first lover with 2 major differences. He is much more turned on by my pleasure. He can deal if for some reason I won't orgasm but he delights when I do and so he does all he can to make it happen. I'd be totally turned off by sulking. The last thing I want to do is stroke his ego in bed. Sometimes it's just not going to happen, I know this and I still thoroughly enjoy the sex so I don't want to be made to feel it was bad when I loved it. The more important difference is that he needs and makes that emotional connection very well. He told me once that he absolutely loves that I'll keep eye contact with him during sex. And apparently I smile a lot in a way I do not smile at any other time. He loves my "sex smile." He holds that eye contact very well as well. We "say" so much to each other even if we never speak out loud.

For these two reasons I think I'd do just about anything he asked...or I'd at least give it a try. There are some exceptions but his connection to me makes me feel like I want to do nothing but make him feel good. I've been asked for certain things by other guys but I have said no. If this guy asked for those same things, I'd say yes and it's really just because of our connection.
 
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