Did her relationship w/ this OM end once she learned that she'd been drugged and sexually assaulted?

Pending an answer to that, it's possible that her unease w/ discussing this particular topic may stem from either a) residual trauma that she may feel due to having been drugged and assaulted or b) the fact that she's lying about having been drugged and assaulted (which, of course, assumes that she is indeed lying).

 

Did her relationship w/ this OM end up learning that she'd been drugged and sexually assaulted?

Pending an answer to that, it's possible that her unease w/ discussing this particular topic may stem from either a) residual trauma that she may feel due to having been drugged and assaulted or b) the fact that she's lying about having been drugged and assaulted (which, of course, assumes that she is indeed lying).

Based on her word alone, this event ended their relationship. But I think her uneasiness about the direction of the discussion was based on this: I was probably about to "blame the victim" and say she brought this on herself for 2 reasons. One, she shouldn't have been in a long-term sexual relationship with a married man and her still legally married. And Two, if he really was an extremely narcissist control freak and a bad guy, shouldn't she have figured that out during the two prior years of the relationship? Affairs have consequences, and this is one of them.

 

It never goes away - triggers everywhere. You just have more distance with time and less frequent hurt - but when your triggering it hurts like the first time (sometimes). I got the same lines early on. A classic was when she was giving me some detail and I became really angry. Yes I had asked for the detail, I did it to myself, but I am entitled to know it all. For my ex WS it was the perfect excuse later on - "Well I'm not talking about that, you become so angry...."

They like to think you have moved on; who wouldn't in their position. But they'd be wrong about that. You don't actually move on, not in the first few years, you live with humiliation and bitterness. I fully realised this not that long ago. Her affair with that filthy rat really f**ked me up. But at some point you do have to move on. Imagine having to live this way to the end. That's my dream - to get past it; stuck in quicksand as I might be right now.

 

It never goes away - triggers everywhere. You just have more distance with time and less frequent hurt - but when your triggering it hurts like the first time (sometimes). I got the same lines early on. A classic was when she was giving me some detail and I became really angry. Yes I had asked for the detail, I did it to myself, but I am entitled to know it all. For my ex WS it was the perfect excuse later on - "Well I'm not talking about that, you become so angry...."

QUOTE]

Right, so it becomes your problem and not her's. Women typically try to make little of their wrongs and try to blame them on you. My wife does that all the time. Pisses me off!

 

So not only does she have the trauma of knowing she cheated on you and on any children you might have, she had the added trauma of knowing that she had a TWO YEAR affair with a rapist who drugged and raped her.

I wonder if she requires counselling to help her get her head sorted out?

That's great, isn't it? "Can't 'we' just 'move on'?" ="You know, it would be SO great if you could ignore the hole I put through your heart. And could you PLEASE stop dripping blood on the carpet? We have guests coming over soon and I don't want them knowing that I stuck the knife of infidelity into your chest."
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"Why Do You Keep Asking Questions About It?". That's the trouble with some folks trying to stay in a marriage after one or the other cheats; the betrayed spouse continues to want to exhume and autopsy the body. Right or wrong the cheating spouse gets to the point where they say to themselves, "Geez, how much more can I say".
You, as the cheatee, will never get over it (no more than you can "get over" a death) nor can you legitimately trust her again. (she's proven there's a level of pressure where she'll cross the line) She may not cheat again, but in your mine you will never be reasonably certain. Folks only get one shot at trustworthiness.
In reality, there ain't a hell of a lot your continuous interrogations are going to do. Perhaps you need to question yourself about why you're staying with a spouse who did something that's going to cause you misery and trepidation an indeterminate amount of time in the future. Your continuous questions may be just a method of temporarily assuaging yourself and prolonging the recognition that you can't live with the fact that she betrayed you.

 

Given that your heart, @MAJDEATH, was once firmly into R, presumably as a means of marriage preservation, I think that solution has finally run its due course.

I think that you'd be far happier putting this sordid past of hers behind you; and a bright future placed squarely in front of you! There seemingly is no trust left between the two of you!


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You do not talk about the affair constantly do you?

You just bring it up when you are reminded of her cheating such as the allegations of infidelity snd drug use against Bill Cosby, a local media star, a pastor or the like?
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I understand the need to ask questions. It like you have to piece together your life (not hers) over that period to find out what was real, what was a lie, when were you being manipulated. You need to make sense of your personal story. Without honest answers, there is a giant hole.

"All sorrows can be borne if you put them into a story or tell a story about them."-Karen Blixen

 

Additionally, “Unless we are willing to escape into sentimentality or fantasy, often the best we can do with catastrophes, even our own, is to find out exactly what happened and restore some of the missing parts.” - Norman Maclean, Young Men and Fire

"But after its restored to the greatest extent practicable, accept it for what you now have before you or you give it up. It ain't gonna get no better." -ThePheonix, Don't Let Your Mouth Overload Your Azz.

 

I've never had a single question answered from my ex and I and not in R so I'm left with the fact I have to accept I will never get answers. Part of this is conjecture on my part but I think everyone will always have questions and at some point you just have to accept your never going to get full answers.

Your never going to truly know what was going thru there heads when it was occurring, leading up to it etc. Your spouse has "demonized" the om in her head, she has had years to do it. He was a master manipultor, control freak, now he drugged her. It's always an angle with her. Whether all this happened who knows.

I find it interesting in my situation now that the jello clown story has started coming out my crazy ex is now telling people I did this to her which of course never happened but for her it's just another easy angle for sympathy and her whole queen of victimhood.

Do triggers ever go away, I don't think so. Will questions always come up in your mind, yes. Will your ever get full and complete answers now, probably not. This is just another joy and short end of stick bs get. Especially how many years ago it happened for you.

 

I agree the need to ask questions is to sort out the whole story. What is real and what is not. Everything has to be reframed as new information is given or as a new conclusion or question is formulated. A trigger vomits all those questions up again…..this doesn't make sense in light of what you said happened, I need clarification… I need more details about this because I just remembered something and now I'm missing information and I need to make sense of …..

The timeline is never completed or precisely accurate based on our memories and interpretations of events.

 

My husband will not ask me questions. Everything I've told him has come from ME wanting him to know the details.

Mostly because I want him to know that it's not everything he thinks it was. I think he has this glorified version of a drawn out romantic, pleasure filled escapade. Which is not what I did. My one time contact was filled with confusion, manipulation, intermittent good feelings that someone was interested in me, knowing it was wrong, attempting to stop it, to finally doing what I did and stopping.

My husband does not believe I stopped. He says it's the same as him saying to me "oh I only stuck my **** in her for a second and then stopped" and that it's all bull****.

He believes that more happened and I just haven't told him. I don't blame him for that, knowing that I trickle truthed and lied.

But I would THINK that a truly remorseful spouse would WANT to share the details, even if they are embarrassing. Once you have admitted what you did, why not give the actual details? Come clean, get everything out in the open so there cannot be any more questions?

My husband thinks there's more like I said, which I don't blame him for. But like I've said before, there is NOTHING stopping me from giving more details if there were any. I have nothing left to lose at this point. I've lost it all. And what my husband can't seem to see is, I finally told him because he deserves the truth. He never deserved to be lied to in the first place, seeing the pain I caused is enough for me to know that if I were hiding anything else, it would just hurt him again and ruin any chance I'd ever have of him being with me again or even as my friend.

When my husband first brought up divorce, he swears that he tried to talk to me about the kiss later and that I said "we've already talked about this, I'm not talking about it again". I know damn well I never said any such thing. Given my mind state for the years after my infidelity, I often hoped he would push me further. I carried a lot of guilt and regret for a long time, still do. I drank heavily, cried often and would work my mind into a state of frenzy really trying to go back in time and change what I did. Had he pushed me to talk about it earlier, I may have come clean earlier.

I've stated before, my husband made it easy for me to hide what I did BECAUSE he never pushed for details. Literally 3-4 days after the supposed kiss, things were back to how they used to be. And it never came up again. I thought he wanted to forget it and I wanted nothing more than to bury it. I only had to face what I did in my mind. My conscious was my only punishment. It wasn't a pretty place, but it was the only place I actually faced consequences.

I would like nothing more than to sit down with my husband, go over every single detail, have him question whatever he wants and have him actually see and feel my emotions of sadness, regret, remorse and wish to be able to make this right. But that will never happen.
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I'm not trying to be mean, but at some point you are going to have to stop blaming your husband for getting fed up with your trickle truth. You chose to do what you did.

You had control over your actions: the sexual affair, and the later trickle truth. Who cares what specific act you did, you had sex with a man who wasn't your husband. One time or hundred times. A hand job, or a blow job. Does't matter. You failed to control yourself.

You can't control your husband's response to your actions.

Let it go. Learn from it and never cheat again with your next husband or boyfriend.

 

MAJOR,

Are you and your wife going to marriage counseling? You have said you've been in reconciliation for ten years or longer, correct? So why was d-day six months ago? I'm just trying to understand your story, and I have many thoughts on what is going on. I've also noticed when people have challenged you you become quite agitated. Why? Are you thinking deep down, that just maybe this is more then you could accept? If you would rather, I can PM my thoughts to you.
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M, with all these multiple threads you have started, each one addressing your wife's infidelity from a different angle, is it far fetched for me to assume that you are a man trying to talk himself into something? Or trying desperately to talk himself out of something that, deep down in his heart, he knows he needs to do?

I get the feeling that you know...in your soul's center...that what your wife did was a deal breaker.
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One thing that annoys me, is when I occasionally ask questions about past infidelity situations (maybe about once every 3 weeks or so, but less frequently since Dday 6 months ago), I am starting to get some push-back from the W. Like "why can't we move on", and "haven't I answered all those questions already?" She says it "makes her feel bad when I bring it up again."
I remind her of our agreement for full disclosure, and that for her it was 12 yrs ago, and for me 6 months since learning the truth.

Example: yesterday on the shower radio news it was reported that Bill Cosby had finally been arrested and charged for unlawful drugging and rape of a woman many years ago. We were in the shower discussing why he needed to drug/rape women when most likely, as a wealthy celebrity, he most likely would have willing partners. My fWW had an experience where she was unknowingly drugged/SA by an OM once. For years prior she had a sexual relationship with him, so why would he need to drug her one night when she was willing? I pointed out the similarities with Bill Cosby and asked her why do these men do this? She said it was because they are narcissists and want total control over a woman, even she they are willing partners. Then she proceeded to get angry that I was even talking about an old relationship, because it makes her feel bad to talk about it.

My other favorite cheater line is "Does it matter now, that was so long ago?" I should have a female friend that I know call my W's phone and inform her that I impregnated her years ago and now she wants child support. When my W confronts me, I'll say "Does it matter now, that was so long ago?"

Your posts remind me of women who go back to their physically abusive SO, yet run back to complain and vent to their friends when the abuse eventually happens again.

The last para entirely exposes you. I can't recollect but there is a word for such imaginary/delayed retorts that only happen in the mind and feeling good about it.

 

I broke the cardinal rule for R-never agree to R without having the complete truth. I only learned most (I say most because you never get 100%) of the story 6 months ago. I then contacted nearly all parties involved to verify and understand what happened.
After rereading my post in this thread and others, it's clear that I am rethinking my decision to R back in 2006.
We both are in counseling but their help is limited to what I will accept.

 

I broke the cardinal rule for R-never agree to R without having the complete truth. I only learned most (I say most because you never get 100%) of the story 6 months ago. I then contacted nearly all parties involved to verify and understand what happened.
After rereading my post in this thread and others, it's clear that I am rethinking my decision to R back in 2006.
We both are in counseling but their help is limited to what I will accept.

M,

Don't beat yourself up on near DD decisions and expectations. Very few BS have the "tools" and experience to navigate the confusion of being cheated on.

How many of us have said/thought "if only I had found TAM a year prior to DD." Hindsight and all...

I'm 6+ years into R with my WW. It was bad, real bad. I made a lot of mistakes pre/post DD that are TAM 101. My advice to someone in R, very little...

Accept that there will always be more than you will ever know and the corollary... R is a daily, conscience decision for the BS.

 

You need to sit her down, get a 100% written timeline and then follow it up with an (unannounced) poly. Staple divorce papers to the back of the poly appointment. Once you get the timeline there are no do-overs.

This not-knowing is going to freaking kill you man. I promise you that you'll never be whole.

The amount of disrespect that she is showing someone that she should be helping heal (given it was her actions, after all) is staggering. Personally, it would be a non-starter for me no matter when she told me about it initially.

 

There is no law that I know of, anywhere, that says you cannot change your mind about R. You may have been okay with it initially back in 2006, but hindsight is indeed 20/20.

...10/10 in your case I would say.

 

Maj, you're on the S in M topic talking about your old lady sleeping nude, never turning you down and apparently bragging about being the luckiest husband in the world.
Look Dawg, you'll never know if you're getting the "whole truth" or not. Besides, what good is it going to do you. The bottom line is she if she didn't enjoy her erotic meetups with these guys or she wouldn't have done it. If you want the truth about what she did, watch a few pron movies. She turned these guys every way but loose and screwed them nine ways to Sunday multiple times. What more do you need to know.
You're clearly having buyer's remorse my man but at the same time she's putting something on you Ajax won't take off. You need to make up your mind whether your keeping the rig or return it for a refund.

 

Majdeath- I am always rooting for you to find peace with or without your wife. Relationships are complicated and the longer they last the more entangled the emotions are. The deeper the connection is, whether for good or bad its deep and difficult.You are making the right decisions for yourself as you go along- things may get better or worse and you will make new decisions based on those events….

Have you read "Codependent No More"? I think you would find yourself on many pages. You can google the main points and get the drift of where you fit in and what you can do to help yourself feel more whole.

 

Looks like you're looking for the final nail in the coffin, all details to make your final decision. As Bandit stated you're pushing for something here.

And when they ask why do you keep asking, tell them

If you didn't cheat, I wouldn't have to ask. That usually shuts them up pretty quit.

Will you ever get 100%, NOPE. There will be little things that might get left out to either lessen the damage or simply because we didn't find it an important detail.

BTW, alot of BS that actually get close to 100% of all details, the marriage usually won't work out. Now the mind movies are reality. Prior to knowing what really happened you're going crazy with what could have happened BUT it's the maybe it didn't happen part that keeps you there. But once you discover all....game over for most people.

 

Majdeath,
I like to point out you last DDay was just --what about 6 months ago of these old affair(s),

so essentially you are still fairly new in this process, which most say it takes 2 to 5 years to get through.

where as, she is way past this and it is old news to her.

that is why trickle truth/minimizing is so damaging, it seems to keep resetting the clock on the recovery process for the betrayed spouse.

with any new information it brings on more questions.

 

I asked over and over again...the same questions...why?...because every day I got a different answer...some totally opposite from her last answer...there was no consistency with any of her responses. So, this just validated how much was lying or how our issues meant so little to her.

 

Like others have stated, I am comparing her truthful answers to my perceptions as to what I thought was occurring at the time. Why she was cold and uncaring at certain times but also warm and loving at other times. Her priorities and motivations kept changing, and now the picture is getting clear.
There were emotional elements involved, physical elements involved, using others to have your needs met, and being used as well. The fog of "fabricated love and care" during the As was also at play.

 

By talking to others involved in the As (spouses, mutual friends, family members, co-workers, and the OM themselves), I have confirmed her answers as facts. With the exception of a certain OM, who I don't think I would be able to maintain objective composure with. Also based on my perceptions and descriptions by others, he probably wouldn't be truthful anyway and would cause more harm than good. But he is the key OM-he was involved with my fWW for 3 yrs. I did speak with his wife but the key answers really need to come from him. Maybe thru an intermediary I could prepare some written questions and see if he would provide some answers. While the wife knows about the A, he probably did TT with her, and doesn't want all the details to get out. I tried to inform her of all that I knew, but she did not want to hear most of it and blamed herself for what happened.

 

One thing that annoys me, is when I occasionally ask questions about past infidelity situations (maybe about once every 3 weeks or so, but less frequently since Dday 6 months ago), I am starting to get some push-back from the W. Like "why can't we move on", and "haven't I answered all those questions already?" She says it "makes her feel bad when I bring it up again."
I remind her of our agreement for full disclosure, and that for her it was 12 yrs ago, and for me 6 months since learning the truth.

Example: yesterday on the shower radio news it was reported that Bill Cosby had finally been arrested and charged for unlawful drugging and rape of a woman many years ago. We were in the shower discussing why he needed to drug/rape women when most likely, as a wealthy celebrity, he most likely would have willing partners. My fWW had an experience where she was unknowingly drugged/SA by an OM once. For years prior she had a sexual relationship with him, so why would he need to drug her one night when she was willing? I pointed out the similarities with Bill Cosby and asked her why do these men do this? She said it was because they are narcissists and want total control over a woman, even she they are willing partners. Then she proceeded to get angry that I was even talking about an old relationship, because it makes her feel bad to talk about it.

My other favorite cheater line is "Does it matter now, that was so long ago?" I should have a female friend that I know call my W's phone and inform her that I impregnated her years ago and now she wants child support. When my W confronts me, I'll say "Does it matter now, that was so long ago?"

Your wife is REMORSELESS. Here is the irony....

She has absolutely no respect for you because you gave her another chance.

Also, her inconvenience is more important than your pain and suffering.

I'm sorry you don't think you can do better. Hell, alone would be better than this.

 

Your wife is REMORSELESS.

To me hearing a caught cheater acting remorseful is kinda like a drunk surviving a car wreck. They ain't sorry they were driving drunk. They are just glad they didn't get killed.

 

Well, it has been over a month since I have asked any infidelity related questions. I wasn't really keeping track until I reread this thread and remembered the date.
I was advised by my IC that it is common for the time frame between questions to increase for the first 2 yrs after DDay. Occasional triggers may pop up, but generally progress is being made. She also indicated it may take from 2-5 yrs to process all the information and apply it to make your M better.
Unfortunately I am reconsidering the R, which was based on incomplete information.

 

You definitely seem to have a lot strong unresolved emotions about her affair. It comes through in many of your posts. That's only natural until you have all the details you need and the time it takes to process that information.

She may have told you once (or thought she did). But that doesn't mean you understood it, or retained it. A trigger will bring those feelings back, and that is consequence you are forced to bear. If she really wants R to work, she has to be willing to bear it with you. Sounds like she is hoping you'll start rugsweeping your emotions. Try not to let that happen.

If you are yelling at her or taking out anger in a destructive way, then you need to check yourself. But if you are being patient and kind in your inquiries, she needs to indulge it. Even if it causes her pain to relieve her mistakes.

 

This is why it's a deal breaker for my fiance and me. The relationship will never be the same after infidelity, and while we would forgive, forgetting would be hard to do. And trusting would be harder to do. I'm a pretty trusting person and so is he, so if that trust was broken, it would be hard to repair. I hope you find peace about it all.

 

I hope you are correct and never have to experience infidelity, but many a poster has said this only to reconcile when it occurs.