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Let's just say I did my share of chores growing up poor in a village and hated it. I don't think my humanity suffered any because I could not cook a soufle... People adapt. It's a lot easier to teach a kid how to cook a decent meal than to teach them calculus.

Priorities...
I cannot imagine HOW my poor kids manage to do their share of the work AND learn calculus?! How did *I* manage it. I am not talking about learning to cook. I am talking about learning to CONTRIBUTE. The importance of contribution. And I honestly don't care if they hate it. No one loves doing chores. But it is a part of life. And I, for one, and not going to send my kids off into the world to be as ****ish as my husband inadvertently was and expect their spouses to deal with that.
 

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@jld
I know one wife who doesn't do much but I wouldn't say doesn't do anything.
I've heard the stories on TAM as well.
I think there are lazy people out there and it doesn't depend on gender at all. Some people just don't want to work.
I would like to think that people get their own routine with the spouse each contributing so that the other one feels like they don't carry the load. I know it doesn't happen with everyone but one would hope that it does with a substantial portion.

I have never known a man who has expected to be served at home. If my husband expected that he'd be out the door. I'm nobody's maid.

We both find time to Pursue our hobbies and if I ever felt that I couldn't because of family needs or house needs being put first I'd talk to H about it and he'd do the same...as wth the majority of my friends.

People get taken advantage of because they don't open their mouth and let the spouse know how they feel...in many aspects. No one is a mind reader.
That is the case sometimes. However, there are plenty of times when a person who is taken advantage of speaks up and does not often. But they are ignored. Often times they are accused of nagging. And then in the end after a lot of speaking up, a lot of trying to get their spouse onboard, the only thing left is to file for divorce. By the time a divorce is file, the one who has not been listening is sitting there saying that they were blind sided.. they did not know that there was a real problem. But it's too late because their spouse is completely done with them and the marriage.
 

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My kids' biggest achievement is growing up normal in a marital maelstrom... I did not want them to do chores, it's that simple. To me it's a waste of time - same as part time summer work. It's not pride or worth, rather, it's a matter of allocation of resources (time and energy) to where it will do the most good.
We'll have to agree to disagree about what constitutes "normal." I had a far less privileged and a pretty dysfunctional life and I'd rate myself pretty "normal" compared to some of the stuff people on TAM here post.

And if they both studied 24/7 all summer and thus could never mow the lawn, awesome. But honestly, no I don't believe that's true. I think there's an implication that they are "better than that." You send them to the dorms with this assumption that other people will now pick up the slack for what you opted or refused to teach them or make them do. That's cool, obviously the "lesser" students or "the help" should do those things.

It's a lot easier to teach a kid how to cook a decent meal than to teach them calculus.
It's not about what is easier or more difficult. 99% of people can live their entire lives and never need to understand or do calculus, even to have good paying respectable jobs.

Priorities...
I just think reading some of your posts, John, it's kind of easy to see that all of your problems in your marriage aren't your wife's fault despite you regularly showing how she's lazy and entitled. If people are only supposed to do things that directly benefit them, and other things are a waste of resources, I guess I don't understand why there's that gap that's probably what your wife feels about sex and whatever else is wrong between the two of you.

You both feel whatever the other person wants is a waste of time and not worth bothering with.

I just find it bothersome, ironic, and somewhat amusing that you'd then steam forward to giving your children that same attitude.
 

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Do nothing or do nothing useful?

On whose terms?

Quality standards?

My wife will spend hours "cleaning" but not stuff that really needs to be cleaned... More hours pruning, again, stuff that only needs infrequent pruning. All that is "work".

But moving two girls to / from college in 48 hours is not "work".
Yes, we get that there are people like your wife.

Will agree that there are also some spouse that do nothing, or next to nothing, to help out with the home (inside and out, with the kids, etc.)?

Will you agree that is a man or woman complains to their spouse, a spouse who is leaving most or all of this type of work up to their spouse, that they need to pay attention and work with their spouse to fix it?
 

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It has more to do with working together as a team. When people are holding up their own "standards" and insisting on remaining pissy, they are not working as a team.
The standards thing can be interesting.

For example... does the dishes but then leaves the sink full of food scraps, dirty, and dirty water on the counters around the sink, etc. So yea, the dishes are done but now you have to clean the sink. Is that an incomplete job? Or is it a job to be accepted as ok because the dishes are in the dishwasher or dish rack?

Another example... cleaning the counter after dinner prep. Pushes everything to the back of the counter.. not putting away thinks like spices, dishes, even unused veggies... just pushing them to the back of the counter and whipping down whatever of the counter is showing.

Both of these exmaples mean that someone has to come behind them and complete the job.
 

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The standards thing can be interesting.

For example... does the dishes but then leaves the sink full of food scraps, dirty, and dirty water on the counters around the sink, etc. So yea, the dishes are done but now you have to clean the sink. Is that an incomplete job? Or is it a job to be accepted as ok because the dishes are in the dishwasher or dish rack?
Honestly, if the issue is not already and issue, no one cares. On balance, my DH does a ton. And this happens to be one of the things he does not do, clean the sink. Meh. I do it. What is the "job" measurement that determines if it is complete or not? There is no absolute, objective measure. It is all opinion. I don't get to determine that FOR HIM.

It's like once you notice someone is annoying, it is hard to UNnotice it, even if you want to. Once resentment sets in, all the little things add to it.
 

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The kids earned nearly $200k between them in academic merit scholarships, not a bad rate of return compared to doing chores.

No punishment, just endless B!tching every time a spec of algae or weed is found.

Today wifey found a few minor scratches on the kitchen counter wood trim and immediately blamed the cat. I explained it's not the cat (I repaired cat scratches in drywall and know what they look like). No luck. So we will spend $1k to repair normal wear and tear damage after 15 years living there "because of the cat".

That's the kind of issue I'm divorcing about, incidentally. her magical thinking and inability to think rationally :)
She might be wrong about the cause of the scratches.

But isn't keeping things in good repair a good idea?
 

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Yes, we get that there are people like your wife.

Will agree that there are also some spouse that do nothing, or next to nothing, to help out with the home (inside and out, with the kids, etc.)?

Will you agree that is a man or woman complains to their spouse, a spouse who is leaving most or all of this type of work up to their spouse, that they need to pay attention and work with their spouse to fix it?
For sure.
 

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Let's just say I did my share of chores growing up poor in a village and hated it. I don't think my humanity suffered any because I could not cook a soufle... People adapt. It's a lot easier to teach a kid how to cook a decent meal than to teach them calculus.

Priorities...
I hated chores, too. But they needed to be done. And they definitely prepared me for not having mom and dad around to do it all for me. It's better to make sure your kids have some sort of understanding of basic life skills than to do it all for them. Otherwise, it doesn't matter how much is paid for higher education, if they can't do a simple job to maintain basic standards of living.

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To be entirely fair, some women who are pissy (oh, like I was) about their husband's contribution need to understand (like I didn't) that you can want your spouse TO do something or you can want HOW s/he does something but not both. You don't get to say that you need more housework done AND require his or her standards to be the same as yours.
Very true.

I've heard that a source of problems can be the wife expecting her husband to do things her way, the husband always fails and eventually gives up. Ironically, this can be because the wife thinks of housework as her job and her husband is working for her.
 

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Will you agree that is a man or woman complains to their spouse, a spouse who is leaving most or all of this type of work up to their spouse, that they need to pay attention and work with their spouse to fix it?
Of course. Just like a spouse should listen to their partner who is not happy with their sex life. The spouse should pay attention and work to fix it.

The problem in both cases is that the "good" spouse talks about it and the "bad" spouse doesn't take them seriously.

The only thing to do then is to say "I have no intention of staying in a marriage where......." and mean it.
 

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Of course. Just like a spouse should listen to their partner who is not happy with their sex life. The spouse should pay attention and work to fix it.

The problem in both cases is that the "good" spouse talks about it and the "bad" spouse doesn't take them seriously.

The only thing to do then is to say "I have no intention of staying in a marriage where......." and mean it.
“I think that sometimes, a person (male or female) has the right in marriage to withhold sex if their spouse is mistreating them. No one is obligated to have sex with a spouse if they are mistreated.

There are some obvious things, like verbal and physical abuse. There are some less obvious types of mistreatment like refusing to do a fairly equal about of the work it keep up a home (inside and out) and raise children.
 

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Sad that you only see it from an American-centric point of view.
Sorry, I don't see it as sad. It is far more important to be able to take care of yourself. You did them a disservice by not expecting them to learn how to take care of themselves. They won't always have mommy and daddy around. And they won't always have a roommate to push all the chores onto. And I feel bad for anyone who marries someone, whether a man or woman, who cannot wash dishes, wash his or her own laundry, or even sweep a floor. Basic life skills are inportant, John, no matter where you live in the world. That isn't an "American-centric" view. It's common sense.

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Sad that you only see it from an American-centric point of view.
John, who is going to the chores for them when they are on their own?
 

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Really? I can't recall a single buddy from Europe that had a part time job growing up. Not quite the same attitude here. There it's ok to live with your parents after 25. Here...

And that's not counting the very well off to do with multiple servants in places my wife grew up, India, Saudi Arabia, et al.

People adapt and learn. I came to this country at age 22 without knowing most of the so called life skills. I think I did ok :)
 

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John, who is going to the chores for them when they are on their own?
I'm sure John's kids will have jobs making tons of money and then marry men that also make tons of money so they won't have to be able to perform menial life tasks, they'll have people that do it for them. Unlike us poor, under-educated, under-achieving, hard-working Americans.
 
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