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Anyone want to defend themselves? Now is your chance. If you believe Elegirl is correct, then you need to apologize. If you were venting, just say so. If you were just posting off the top of your head, hoping for some answers from someone, anyone, then say so.

I think you were misunderstood, but those posts sure do look to the untrained or the unaware, that she is a least somewhat correct.

@noname,

Ele isn't a wimp. She knows me well enough to know when I'm just being a smart alek and when I am trying to get to the bottom of things. I'd say she takes me seriously, as I intended.

Don't underestimate her intelligence.
 

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Confused about what? Many women and men want the same thing, a partner to share life with, what is so confusing. Sadly what many want and what they get are two different things.
I checked back and can't find where I posted that.

There is a post where I copied what you said and placed a question mark at the end of the sentence, in order to let you know that I didn't understand what you posted, which is directly above it.

Those were your words, as far as I can tell. Maybe just your assumption? Go check and post the whole quote because I can't even discuss this with you, if I can't even find the post.

You may have read it incorrectly.
 

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You're describing how people here, when called out, will say 'ok, yeah, so not EVERY man is a luddite.' Works both ways. It's human nature, we all do it. So what? Doesn't make the experiences behind the statements any less true.

You didn't answer my question as to which post you were referring to, so I still don't know what you're talking about. I saw that I revised #585, but that's just because I added the last sentence. And it was in response to john, not you.


What questions? And please, be my guest. :)
One at a time. I have to get to bed soon, anyway. I don't think tomorrow night is all that good. I have to go somewhere after work, but we'll see.
 

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@MrsHolland,

Is this it right here? I colored my responses "royal blue" to separate your posts. I've also separated your posts from mine a little with the "enter" key.

I believe I got all of it. I had to copy and paste it here, or I would have lost your posts.

I hope that's acceptable.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsHolland View Post
To help out with what?


Exactly! Each would have to take care of themselves if alone.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsHolland View Post
Being married is more work for many women, they often end up with a man/child.


I guess many men and women are pretty far apart on things?



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsHolland View Post
Men and women are not that far apart, most of us want a partner to share life with.


Many women often end up with a man/child. I'm not following.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsHolland View Post ;
How is that different to what men want?

:circle: :confused:


Now, which post(s) were you confused about?

ps.: I also made some text bold font to show where I got my response from. Some of my responses were(due to considerations) from a previous post or two. I'll have to go get them, if you still have issues with what I posted.
 

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I checked back and can't find where I posted that.

There is a post where I copied what you said and placed a question mark at the end of the sentence, in order to let you know that I didn't understand what you posted, which is directly above it.

Those were your words, as far as I can tell. Maybe just your assumption? Go check and post the whole quote because I can't even discuss this with you, if I can't even find the post.

You may have read it incorrectly.
Originally Posted by 2ntnuf View Post
................................


Is it possible the reason women want to get married is to have someone around to help out? I guess that is expected, but it seems like this kind of response would mean that's all that is wanted. I think men and women are very far apart on things. It's sad.
 

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Below are only a few of the posts from this thread in which this was said. Most if not all of these were liked by other male posters. And these were taken from the start of the thread, before it started to spiral to even worse.
All the ones I read said "women" or "some women", not "all women".

Shouldn't we just assume that "women" means "some women", if the poster doesn't say "all women"? I assume that for women posting negative comments about "men".
 

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Yeah but I also think that if more care was taken in how an opinion is written it may actually avoid this. It is a statement, that I have read posts that use words that assume' a general population feels the same they do . ' In fact , I think one should just use ' I feel' and their own experiences instead. Using assumptive language ends up offending others that don't agree with it.


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It isn't just regarding opinions, though. It also happens when statements of fact are made.

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Anyone want to defend themselves? Now is your chance. If you believe Elegirl is correct, then you need to apologize. If you were venting, just say so. If you were just posting off the top of your head, hoping for some answers from someone, anyone, then say so.



I think you were misunderstood, but those posts sure do look to the untrained or the unaware, that she is a least somewhat correct.




@noname,



Ele isn't a wimp. She knows me well enough to know when I'm just being a smart alek and when I am trying to get to the bottom of things. I'd say she takes me seriously, as I intended.



Don't underestimate her intelligence.


Hmmm , u r the one assuming I am
' underestimating her intelligence' I am not.


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One at a time. I have to get to bed soon, anyway. I don't think tomorrow night is all that good. I have to go somewhere after work, but we'll see.
Whatever, dude. Probably won't read it anyway, as this seems to have turned into a crusade for you.

I hope whatever's got your goat passes soon, so you can chillax.
 

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You know there are days where I think.."ffs why do I do everything around here". I admit that.
Someone at work the other day was complaining about how her husband doesn't lift one finger to help.
She said city you must agree and I said I know what you mean. But that got me thinking. What does my H actually do. He might not do the standard housework that needs to be done but in reality he does a hell of a a lot. Who drops the kids off at daycare/school. Who cooks most of the meals. Who does the grocery shopping (Ick). Who does the outside work. Who runs the kids to all sports etc. All H.
Maybe we need redefine what work is? Yes I do the laundry, housework and general chores and yes we both work outside of the home. But if I sit down and think about it, H contributes just as much as me but in different ways.
I don't know...yes there are some men out there that do nothing. As there are women out there that do nothing as well and the husband picks up the slack. But when you complain about not doing anything are they doing other things that isn't in the general definition of "true housework".

Just my two cents.


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All the ones I read said "women" or "some women", not "all women".

Shouldn't we just assume that "women" means "some women", if the poster doesn't say "all women"? I assume that for women posting negative comments about "men".
Meh, I wouldn't look into it any further. If someone wants to dig through pages and pages of posts, picking out ones that "support" their stance (even though doing so allows the posts to be taken out of context since the underlying conversation at the time is glossed over), so be it. At this point no sense in butting heads over and having words/posts twisted any further.
 

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You know there are days where I think.."ffs why do I do everything around here". I admit that.
Someone at work the other day was complaining about how her husband doesn't lift one finger to help.
She said city you must agree and I said I know what you mean. But that got me thinking. What does my H actually do. He might not do the standard housework that needs to be done but in reality he does a hell of a a lot. Who drops the kids off at daycare/school. Who cooks most of the meals. Who does the grocery shopping (Ick). Who does the outside work. Who runs the kids to all sports etc. All H.
Maybe we need redefine what work is? Yes I do the laundry, housework and general chores and yes we both work outside of the home. But if I sit down and think about it, H contributes just as much as me but in different ways.
I don't know...yes there are some men out there that do nothing. As there are women out there that do nothing as well and the husband picks up the slack. But when you complain about not doing anything are they doing other things that isn't in the general definition of "true housework".

Just my two cents.


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Agreed CG, I was actually wondering as well, what fits under the "housework" umbrella. Every Saturday during the spring I am out of the house from about 8am until well after 3pm running around with the kids for their sports. Sunday's, since I am the one who gets up early, I get the boys ready and take them to church for their religion class. Does this qualify as housework, IMO, it does. However, ultimately I think it is important that both people in the relationship are on the same page as far as expectations and what role each person will play in achieving those.
 

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You know there are days where I think.."ffs why do I do everything around here". I admit that.
Someone at work the other day was complaining about how her husband doesn't lift one finger to help.
She said city you must agree and I said I know what you mean. But that got me thinking. What does my H actually do. He might not do the standard housework that needs to be done but in reality he does a hell of a a lot. Who drops the kids off at daycare/school. Who cooks most of the meals. Who does the grocery shopping (Ick). Who does the outside work. Who runs the kids to all sports etc. All H.
Maybe we need redefine what work is? Yes I do the laundry, housework and general chores and yes we both work outside of the home. But if I sit down and think about it, H contributes just as much as me but in different ways.
I don't know...yes there are some men out there that do nothing. As there are women out there that do nothing as well and the husband picks up the slack. But when you complain about not doing anything are they doing other things that isn't in the general definition of "true housework".

Just my two cents.
Do you know women who do nothing?

I ask, because while I have heard these claims on TAM, I have never actually known any, myself.

I have, however, known men who expected to be served at home. I have also known men who did help somewhat, but still seemed to find plenty of free time to pursue their hobbies. Their wives, otoh, seemed to put the needs of the family first, consistently. Maybe it is just my corner of the world.

In our home, we each have specialized skills that we contribute to the household. We both help in the general areas, too. Pitching in to do whatever needs to be done is pretty much how we roll.
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@jld
I know one wife who doesn't do much but I wouldn't say doesn't do anything.
I've heard the stories on TAM as well.
I think there are lazy people out there and it doesn't depend on gender at all. Some people just don't want to work.
I would like to think that people get their own routine with the spouse each contributing so that the other one feels like they don't carry the load. I know it doesn't happen with everyone but one would hope that it does with a substantial portion.

I have never known a man who has expected to be served at home. If my husband expected that he'd be out the door. I'm nobody's maid.
We both find time to Pursue our hobbies and if I ever felt that I couldn't because of family needs or house needs being put first I'd talk to H about it and he'd do the same...as wth the majority of my friends.
People get taken advantage of because they don't open their mouth and let the spouse know how they feel...in many aspects. No one is a mind reader.



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Do nothing or do nothing useful?

On whose terms?

Quality standards?

My wife will spend hours "cleaning" but not stuff that really needs to be cleaned... More hours pruning, again, stuff that only needs infrequent pruning. All that is "work".

But moving two girls to / from college in 48 hours is not "work".
 

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Agreed CG, I was actually wondering as well, what fits under the "housework" umbrella. Every Saturday during the spring I am out of the house from about 8am until well after 3pm running around with the kids for their sports. Sunday's, since I am the one who gets up early, I get the boys ready and take them to church for their religion class. Does this qualify as housework, IMO, it does. However, ultimately I think it is important that both people in the relationship are on the same page as far as expectations and what role each person will play in achieving those.


See to me anything you do to better the home and marriage should be considered work. It is work to get kids up, fed, dressed out the door for a class.
Just like its work to clean the bathroom and do laundry. Just because you don't see a tangible output doesn't mean it is less worthy.



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I have never known a man who has expected to be served at home.
*waves hand here* Of course I'm old and back then, that's how we were raised. We literally were raised thinking if you're not married by 21, nobody will want you. That's how much things have changed.

When I cook, I bring his plate to him, as an act of service. When he cooks, he tells me to come fix my plate. Time to fix that, I think. ;)

Sad story, aside from his cheating, the reason I broke up with my ex-fiance is that, just before, I was at his parents' house where he still lived (he was in college, I had just started college), for dinner. The mom was serving everyone and never sat down until everyone started digging in. Just as she sat down, my ex took his fork and knife and pounded them on the table like in the movies and said "More milk!" and she jumped up off her chair and ran to get him some more milk. I just sat there, stunned, and thought, this is what I'll have to do?

Sad because I ended up marrying a guy just like him.
 

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Do nothing or do nothing useful?

On whose terms?

Quality standards?

My wife will spend hours "cleaning" but not stuff that really needs to be cleaned... More hours pruning, again, stuff that only needs infrequent pruning. All that is "work".

But moving two girls to / from college in 48 hours is not "work".
Again, this is all about communication. If the two people AGREE on what is to be done, then the two can TALK about what's getting done. That's why I always push for the poster board and an agreement, up front. In fact, I even suggest using a 'weighted' list; for example, making breakfast takes 15 minutes; mowing the lawn may take an hour. So mowing counts as four 15-minute-segment chores each week.
 

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I have never known a man who has expected to be served at home.
Mine did. Not because he was a jerk, but because he just did not really know any better. His mother did EVERYTHING. He really just could not see what went on to make a house work. He sort of just did not think about it. If he did what I asked him to do 10% of the time, he thought he was all good.

For me, I went to a usenet group not unlike this one. (Though un-moderated which makes for a completely different experience!) They taught me effective limit setting. If they had not, I would not have been able to break through his experience based understanding into understanding my world. And my resentment would have grown and grown. And we would be divorced. But not after my grumpily not wanting to be anywhere near him.
 
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