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Ele, say what you want, but there was a hell of a lot more to that post than just what she left there. She went back and deleted or back spaced on a lot more than what is there.

And, you know you can do that once without it showing an edit. :wink2:

Those things that were eliminated from the post were what I was commenting on.

I could have quoted it in that post of mine, but didn't think @turnera would appreciate that, if she wanted to get rid of it later. So, I quoted @john117. It was an offer of some respect and kindness to turnera.



Of course I know that men are expected to do their share. Of course I know that never works out. Of course I know it will never seem fair to one or both partners, at times. Sometimes, there will always be one partner who feels slighted.

If a couple can't talk about it and work it out, if you're unable to handle the work load that you have, no matter what is the cause, get a divorce.

Why hold it in till you can't stand to be around him? Why not make a change? It seems like from your response, you waited too long and got so angry, it still bugs you.

I know some folks who have said they used to do things, but their wife was so nurturing that she started doing things he used to do and slowly drove him away from doing much housework. He ended up just working on things outside, in the basement, garage, the mechanical maintenance on the doors and windows and painting.

His wife told all her friends and family that he didn't do a darn thing to help her. It's kind of true, and it isn't. Much of what he did(to help with the laundry, cleaning, etc.), she just complained was inferior work and she would do it again to make it right.




One guy told me he had so many complaints from his wife, he decided to sit down and talk with her, initiating the conversation himself, because all he heard was insinuations from her friends and family.

When they sat down and talked, she was so vague about what she wanted him to do, he decided to ask if he could make a list of all things needing done and split them evenly, but with compromises, right down the middle.

She got angry as hell and told him she'd do it herself. Then, she complained more.

This led to her feeling disrespected, used as a maid, and unappreciated. She acted like she was repulsed by his touch.

If there is no discussion and compromise, how do they both feel like they are a part of the machinations of the family and household? Is it best to divorce?




No, it's not that women get married to have someone around to help out. It's that once married, many men stop taking care of things that they do for themselves when they are single and leave it for the wife to do.

I'll give you an example.

Before I married my second husband, he had 100% custody of his two children. So he worked full time, kept the house, cooked, and took care of his kids.

After we married he did nothing, and I mean nothing. Yes I tried talking to him as clearly as possible to get him to take responsibility for things in the house, yard and with his own children. He gave it lip service and would agree verbally. But he never cleaned anything. Never did a dish. Never cooked a meal. NOTHING.

I know that my situation might seem extreme, but I have known a lot of women who work, have children and have husbands who will not lift a finger. If she had not married him, she would not have as much work to do in the house...after all she's cleaning and picking up after a grown man who acts like a 13 year old around the house. Plus she's taking care of the children who are 50% his.

So no, we do not get married to have someone to help. Neither do we get married so that we can be the maid and babysitter for a full grown man-child.

If you and everyone else think I do not understand, you are very mistaken. I do, much more than you know. As I said above, there is at least a paragraph missing from turnera's post. She went off a little and I knew it. I just wondered how common these feelings are among women, since I've heard similar things before.

My comments weren't meant to offend turnera.
 

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I wasn't married in high school, either. The reference to high school and work was because of my doubt regarding you never working an 8 hour shift... ever. Even the idea of not working due to sports involvement doesn't make sense to me. I know there are quite a few who don't, so I understand that part. But I also know others who manage to juggle sports, band, and work with no problem. I was in choir and worked. But that explains why you don't understand about 8 hour workday (or less).

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My first job was summer internship in college. My normal hours were 7:30am - 6pm. Following summer similar hours (except overseas). After that I graduated, and my normal hours have been 7:30am-6:30pm / 8am-6pm / or similar. This is also very common for others as well that I work with.

However, I don't understand the questioning about high school. I didn't need to work in high school (no, I didn't come from an independently wealthy family), so between school and sports that took up more then enough time for me. Not sure why, but your post seems to come across a bit judgy b/c you and you knew others who did work during school, don't see your motivation with this tbh. :confused:
 

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I always said I wanted to have 3 sons so I could grow great guys who would NOT turn out to expect the woman to do it all just because she's female, lol.

Likewise, every year, I added a chore to DD's list, so that by the time she graduated, she knew how to change oil, fix a flat, mow the lawn, shampoo carpets, do minor repairs, change a lock, etc.

As far as her chores at her apartment, when she moved in, she made an agreement with the guys - they would cook and empty the dishwasher, and she would dust and vacuum and do dishes. Unfortunately, the guy who promised to empty the dishwasher, never would.
Oh, I get it now. You women attacking me assume that I'm one of these types who doesn't do it because it's women's work?

It all makes sense, now. Silly me for thinking that you were all progressive women.

I'll try to keep this sexist attitude in mind when I read angry posts to men.
 

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My first job was summer internship in college. My normal hours were 7:30am - 6pm. Following summer similar hours (except overseas). After that I graduated, and my normal hours have been 7:30am-6:30pm / 8am-6pm / or similar. This is also very common for others as well that I work with.

However, I don't understand the questioning about high school. I didn't need to work in high school (no, I didn't come from an independently wealthy family), so between school and sports that took up more then enough time for me. Not sure why, but your post seems to come across a bit judgy b/c you and you knew others who did work during school, don't see your motivation with this tbh. :confused:
As I stated, it didn't make sense to have someone say they had never heard of an 8 hour workday. That was the only motivation for it. You use examples from your own experience, just as I did. Neither is judgmental, but both cannot understand something we have not, ourselves, experienced. You have only experienced 10 hour workdays (roughly). I have only experienced 8 hour workdays (or less). And the *only* reason high school was brought in was because *if* you had worked in high school, you would have experienced what I described... at least, if you were under the age of 18. But, you didn't so you answered my question about how it is even possible you never experienced that.

But, even though you said you disagreed with me on one point, you kind of agreed, too. You stated that even when you get home from work, you don't expect your wife to do everything for you. This says that you *do* help with some of the work... even in small amounts. My understanding was that you initially implied that if one gets home earlier than the other, then that one should have to do all the work. All, not just some. And, I apologize if I misunderstood your position on that. But, when you said that you don't expect your wife to wait on you, that tells me that even though you got home later, you still pitched in.

But, like I said, you write from your experience and I write from mine. In my experience, which is limited to 8 hour days or less, the one who gets home later also goes in later, as NS stated. And, in that case, there is no reason that it wouldn't be a reasonable expectation to share household duties *equally*.

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Sorry @EleGirl, you obviously miss what I am responding to. I did not disagree that some guys are like that. My issue was the statements that many men are like that. You clearly even stated that in your post which I will quote below. IMO there is a big difference between saying "some" and "many", that is all I am trying to draw a distinction from.
These are the reasons why men give up. Twisted facts, assumptions and vitriol, without asking a single question to clarify before going into a sermon about why most men, many men, no, some men are basicly just using their wives for their pleasure, as a housekeeper, and never do much to help out.

See, if this kind of attitude was in the marriage, it's no wonder there were troubles.

Both sides have to work together and communicate. It's already been determined that some of us are no good and treat wives like prostitutes and housekeepers.

Sometimes, I wonder why we even try. It is not appreciated.
 

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The bolded is definitely not what I see in my industry. You go in early and get home late. The whole 8 hour shift thing does not exist (in my industry and many others I know).
Yep, and men are not the only ones who go in early and get home late. Where I have worked for the last 35 years, both men and women do this.
 

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On average, women spend 3.22 hours a week more doing household and child care type chores than men do. These are women who are also working outside the home. Seems more than a bit skewed in the even the ‘average’ household. If we go by those numbers, yes most men are not taking full responsibility at home when they have a wife who is working.

According to The Bureau of Labor Statistics' (BLS) annual Time Use Survey reveals that the percentage of men and women who are involved in household activities, defined as housework, cooking, cleaning up after cooking, and generally taking care of the household, has barely moved since 2003, when the bureau began tracking Americans' day-to-day activities. Eleven years ago, 63 percent of men reported doing some household activity, while 84 percent of women did. In 2014, the numbers were almost the same, according to the BLS: 65 percent for men and 83 percent for women. Of those men and women who engaged in household duties at all, women spent about 2.57 hours on them each day in 2014, a decrease of 9 minutes over 11 years. Over the same period, men's contributions have remained intransigent: In 2003 they spent 2.1 hours a day on housework, while in 2014 it was 2.11 hours. (On a positive note, more men seem to be into cooking.)

The lack of movement is stunning when one considers everything else that's happened during the intervening period: Women now make up almost half of the U.S. labor force; there was, and is again, a viable female presidential candidate in Hillary Clinton; there are women leading the Federal Reserve and the International Monetary Fund. In four out of 10 households with children, women are the sole or primary breadwinner.

Women in the U.S. Still Do Way More Housework Than Men - Bloomberg
Looks like this study was based on "traditional" "women's work".

Did they take into account "traditional" "men's work" when they averaged it out?

I think that's the only way it could be a reasonably honest survey result.
 

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Have you all been hanging out in the red pill thread getting angrier and angrier without making your well thought out opposing positions?

There must be a reason for all of this anger. I don't see it here. Maybe it's just that we Are so far apart that we will not be able to compromise? I didn't think that was true, but the more I read here, the more truth I think there is to that thought.
 

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Not wanting sex with someone who is treating you poorly? Totally understandable.
Yes it is. Yet some people don’t seem to understand that.
Not wanting sex at all with anyone and not having any type of sexual desire at all? Not very understandable.
Some people, men and women, temporarily or permanently lose their sex drive for issues such as low hormones, illness, etc.
What's often confusing is how a woman's sex drive will go completely to zero. Not just for her H, who she perceives (rightly or wrongly) as not worthy, but no sexual desire at all. It is extremely rare for a man to not have any sexual desire. He may not want sex with his W, but he will still have the urge and will satisfy it in some way. But often for women, there just is no urge at all.
For a healthy woman, if she loses her sex drive for her husband because of martial problems, she does not completely lose her sex drive. She just does not want sex with her husband. Why you think this means that she loses her sex drive completely curious.

No, you are wrong, for women they are just not expressing the urge in their marriage. They will often find that urge again either in an affair or after they leave their husband. Don’t forget that women are trained from a very early age to control their sex drive. We are told that we are dirty, slvts, wh0res, etc etc if we dare to have a sexual thought. So, while today most of us reject that, we still manage to control our drive when appropriate.

Society tells men there is little to no reason to control their sex drive, or their acting on it. It is certainly not superior to reject his spouse sexually and then go outside of the marriage for sex. (No good when a woman does that either)

Even in your example, it's not clear why a woman in that scenario would have no sexual desire. A man will generally have sexual urges regardless of what's going on in his life or how his partner is treating him. But we commonly see that a woman's desire can go to zero across the board because of a variety of external factors..
I did not say that she would have no sexual desire at all. I said that she would not want sex with her husband who is not treating her well No we don’t see women’s sexual desire going to zero across the board if her husband mistreats her. . I’m not sure why you interpret that to mean her having no sexual desire or urges.

I think as for the topic of this thread, I think often W start viewing their nice, honest, hardworking H more as a brother than a lover. Once that switch gets flipped that he's a brother, it's not surprising that she doesn't feel sexual towards him. People generally aren't attracted towards their siblings regardless of how attractive or desirable they are. Something in our heads makes us not desire siblings. Something similar happens in W's heads to make them feel like having sex with their H is like doing it with their brother.
I think that assuming that this is the only, or the major, scenario is faulty thinking. Generally, if you ask the wife she will tell you that it’s a lot more than this. Or that she now sees him as a brother or a son because he stopped courting her, stopped spending time with her, and basically he turned into a brother or a son.
 

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Oh, I get it now. You women attacking me assume that I'm one of these types who doesn't do it because it's women's work?

It all makes sense, now. Silly me for thinking that you were all progressive women.

I'll try to keep this sexist attitude in mind when I read angry posts to men.
Women are likely to have this opinion because, progressive or not, odds are good that if you go into any house in America right now, the woman will be the one who sweeps, vacuums, and dusts; who washes and hangs up and puts away laundry; who picks up trash and dirty dishes; makes lunches for the kids, takes kids to the doctor and calls in sick when the kids can't go to school; and fills the dishwasher, even if both spouses work full time. It has nothing to do with being a progressive woman and everything to do with it being in our DNA to nest and need a decent home to raise our kids in; if he's not going to do what he says he will do (or if he never considers doing any of it in the first place), the woman will step in and make sure the home/people are cared for. And I think men more often than not subconsciously know this (being raised by a woman) and act accordingly. I truly think most men truly aren't aware of how much work goes into keeping a house going because, well, they never had to. Some woman was always there doing it. And when he was a bachelor, he likely cleaned once a month and was happy about it.

But women usually don't go into a marriage nowadays expecting to be this guy's replacement mother, after all the wooing and dating and promises, and she finds herself working full time and then coming home and STILL having to work every day...it gets old.

Does he chop wood once a month? Maybe. Mow once a week? Sure. Change oil twice a year? Sure. Carry a heavy chair over there? Absolutely.

But day in and day out, having to be the one who picks up the dirty dishes, loads the dishwasher, puts away the dishes, usually shops for and cooks the meals, bathes the baby, and everything else I mentioned above, BEFORE she can go to bed, while he's been on his computer, playing with the kids, watching tv, or playing video games, day in and day out...you can see how a woman's view can become skewed.

I used to tell my husband 'if you want to get so much sex, why don't you try to lesson my load a little bit so I'm not working 9 hours and then coming home and working 5 more? Maybe then I wouldn't be too tired for it.' So I can always tell now, when he wants some, he'll actually pick up his dirty glass and walk three steps and dump it on the counter. See? I helped. lol
 

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As I stated, it didn't make sense to have someone say they had never heard of an 8 hour workday. That was the only motivation for it. You use examples from your own experience, just as I did. Neither is judgmental, but both cannot understand something we have not, ourselves, experienced. You have only experienced 10 hour workdays (roughly). I have only experienced 8 hour workdays (or less). And the *only* reason high school was brought in was because *if* you had worked in high school, you would have experienced what I described... at least, if you were under the age of 18. But, you didn't so you answered my question about how it is even possible you never experienced that.

But, even though you said you disagreed with me on one point, you kind of agreed, too. You stated that even when you get home from work, you don't expect your wife to do everything for you. This says that you *do* help with some of the work... even in small amounts. My understanding was that you initially implied that if one gets home earlier than the other, then that one should have to do all the work. All, not just some. And, I apologize if I misunderstood your position on that. But, when you said that you don't expect your wife to wait on you, that tells me that even though you got home later, you still pitched in.

But, like I said, you write from your experience and I write from mine. In my experience, which is limited to 8 hour days or less, the one who gets home later also goes in later, as NS stated. And, in that case, there is no reason that it wouldn't be a reasonable expectation to share household duties *equally*.

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I think you took my 8 hour workday comment too literally lol (then again, I am rather sarcastic :D ). Of course I have heard of 8 hour workdays (i.e. 9-5), it was just something I never worked so that is why I equated it to the boogyman. I didn't mean literally I have never heard of such a thing ;) . As I mentioned in response to NS, working late definitely does not imply that one goes into work late as well (heck, I wish that was true but not even close).

Correct as well, I am in no way advocating not helping out at home. My point on the whole hours thing was that if you are just looking purely at the hours spent on "housework" in a given day, the person who is home earlier for those days will more likely rack up more hours (especially if there is a wider gap between when each gets home) . When my W went part time she had some hours as 7-3:30pm. This meant she would be home at 4:30pm with the kids. I wouldn't get home until 7pm. Unless she decided she was going to do nothing with them until I got home so we could have "equal" hours, obviously this meant she was spending time making them dinner, cleaning up, homework. When I got home I did would I could (typically down a quick shake for dinner so I could help get the kids bathe if needed, and then try to spend time with them and my W before everyone went to bed). It is not like she was keeping tab and when the weekend comes she tells me how many hours I need to make up.

So for example, if you used myself and my W as a data point, the hours would be skewed towards her. At face value based on some of the comments here, they would conclude that my W must have married some sort of man child, what other reason could there be. I am looking at the data points from the Labor Dept and saying that there can be many different variables that account for the gap in hours. Some of that is undoubtedly due to men kicking their feet up and doing the minimal amount necessary b/c they expect the woman to do it, but I don't believe that accounts for the full picture.
 

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Originally Posted by wilson
I think as for the topic of this thread, I think often W start viewing their nice, honest, hardworking H more as a brother than a lover. Once that switch gets flipped that he's a brother, it's not surprising that she doesn't feel sexual towards him. People generally aren't attracted towards their siblings regardless of how attractive or desirable they are. Something in our heads makes us not desire siblings. Something similar happens in W's heads to make them feel like having sex with their H is like doing it with their brother.

Originally posted by Ele
I think that assuming that this is the only, or the major, scenario is faulty thinking. Generally, if you ask the wife she will tell you that it’s a lot more than this. Or that she now sees him as a brother or a son because he stopped courting her, stopped spending time with her, and basically he turned into a brother or a son.

Let's remember the lust chemicals leave our bodies by around year 5 of a relationship, so all we have left is communication and commitment. And either ignorance over what holds a marriage together or a desire to make it stay good. And of course, there's all the dysfunctional couples.

Those who know how to sustain love, who read Harley's books and others, who are safe to talk to so the other is always openly communicating, who know that they have to work at the marriage and spend 10-15 hours a week together to keep the passion going...those people are going to be the ones to emulate.
 

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Ele ....

Of course I know that men are expected to do their share. Of course I know that never works out. Of course I know it will never seem fair to one or both partners, at times. Sometimes, there will always be one partner who feels slighted.

If a couple can't talk about it and work it out, if you're unable to handle the work load that you have, no matter what is the cause, get a divorce.

Why hold it in till you can't stand to be around him? Why not make a change? It seems like from your response, you waited too long and got so angry, it still bugs you.
I brought up my pats situation to make a point. The point is that the blanket statement that is almost always made to guys that they need to stop doing the dishes, etc, because it’s not going to get them sex is the WRONG thing to just tell every guy. And yes I’ve never seen a guy told that he needs to step up on do his fair share by another guy on TAM. Sometimes women actually do have valid complaints and that lead them to have so much resentment that they don’t want sex with their husband.

Am I still upset about the way my ex was? When I really think about it, sure it bothers me.

Why didn’t I leave as sooner? Well, it’s hard to know when to give up on a marriage. We see that all the time here. Plus, I felt that I had to wait until his children were out of high school because I was not willing to put children out on the street. And yes they would have been living on the street had I not supported them in every way that parents support children. Neither of their parents did squat for those kids.
I know some folks who have said they used to do things, but their wife was so nurturing that she started doing things he used to do and slowly drove him away from doing much housework. He ended up just working on things outside, in the basement, garage, the mechanical maintenance on the doors and windows and painting.

His wife told all her friends and family that he didn't do a darn thing to help her. It's kind of true, and it isn't. Much of what he did(to help with the laundry, cleaning, etc.), she just complained was inferior work and she would do it again to make it right.




One guy told me he had so many complaints from his wife, he decided to sit down and talk with her, initiating the conversation himself, because all he heard was insinuations from her friends and family.

When they sat down and talked, she was so vague about what she wanted him to do, he decided to ask if he could make a list of all things needing done and split them evenly, but with compromises, right down the middle.

She got angry as hell and told him she'd do it herself. Then, she complained more.

This led to her feeling disrespected, used as a maid, and unappreciated. She acted like she was repulsed by his touch.

If there is no discussion and compromise, how do they both feel like they are a part of the machinations of the family and household? Is it best to divorce?

If you and everyone else think I do not understand, you are very mistaken. I do, much more than you know. As I said above, there is at least a paragraph missing from turnera's post. She went off a little and I knew it. I just wondered how common these feelings are among women, since I've heard similar things before.

My comments weren't meant to offend turnera.
Sure, there are as many different types of situations. That’s why no one solution fits them all. And they are all not cause by women. And all not caused by men. Sometimes they are caused by one person, sometimes both spouses are the problem. Communication is the key. Then if the couple cannot come to a compromise, then maybe the divorce.

But this nonsense of telling all men in sexless marriages to stop doing anything to help around the house is, well, nonsense since we don’t really know the situation.
 

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I get what you and others are saying.

You are all correct and we men are all wrong. Well, maybe not all of you women or us men.

See how that reads when I back off?

It reads like the truth is the first part, then I think about not offending everyone, and decide to say something a bit less controversial.

Just say what you mean, like you did in that post. You were angry and let it out. That's okay. It didn't offend me.

It just made me ask tough questions that it seems most of you have decided you can't address, but instead defend your positions with controlled retreats and accusations that we know are all perfectly correct and honest from both sides of a relationship.

Would you like me to take this apart and respond to each point I think is important for you to consider or would you like to let it go?

I'll do whatever you want.

Women are likely to have this opinion because, progressive or not, odds are good that if you go into any house in America right now, the woman will be the one who sweeps, vacuums, and dusts; who washes and hangs up and puts away laundry; who picks up trash and dirty dishes; makes lunches for the kids, takes kids to the doctor and calls in sick when the kids can't go to school; and fills the dishwasher, even if both spouses work full time. It has nothing to do with being a progressive woman and everything to do with it being in our DNA to nest and need a decent home to raise our kids in; if he's not going to do what he says he will do (or if he never considers doing any of it in the first place), the woman will step in and make sure the home/people are cared for. And I think men more often than not subconsciously know this (being raised by a woman) and act accordingly. I truly think most men truly aren't aware of how much work goes into keeping a house going because, well, they never had to. Some woman was always there doing it. And when he was a bachelor, he likely cleaned once a month and was happy about it.

But women usually don't go into a marriage nowadays expecting to be this guy's replacement mother, after all the wooing and dating and promises, and she finds herself working full time and then coming home and STILL having to work every day...it gets old.

Does he chop wood once a month? Maybe. Mow once a week? Sure. Change oil twice a year? Sure. Carry a heavy chair over there? Absolutely.

But day in and day out, having to be the one who picks up the dirty dishes, loads the dishwasher, puts away the dishes, usually shops for and cooks the meals, bathes the baby, and everything else I mentioned above, BEFORE she can go to bed, while he's been on his computer, playing with the kids, watching tv, or playing video games, day in and day out...you can see how a woman's view can become skewed.

I used to tell my husband 'if you want to get so much sex, why don't you try to lesson my load a little bit so I'm not working 9 hours and then coming home and working 5 more? Maybe then I wouldn't be too tired for it.' So I can always tell now, when he wants some, he'll actually pick up his dirty glass and walk three steps and dump it on the counter. See? I helped. lol
 

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I brought up my pats situation to make a point.
I know you did. That's the same reason I posted what I did...to make my point.




The point is that the blanket statement that is almost always made to guys that they need to stop doing the dishes, etc, because it’s not going to get them sex is the WRONG thing to just tell every guy.
It is wrong to tell men to quit helping around the house because their wives are not giving them sex. They should be telling them to divorce. They should be telling them they'd have to do housework of their own after divorce, or hire a professional maid service.

Tell me. Who told men they should quit helping out around the house when their wife rejects them for sex?

Can you copy and paste posts from these men so we can narrow this down and not blame everyone? Can we address those particular men's comments?

I have not read any and am not defending them. I am under the belief that I am defending myself!

If you've all decided to move the goal posts, again, please let me know.

These circular arguments are disappointing from you and many other women here I usually find enlightening.


And yes I’ve never seen a guy told that he needs to step up on do his fair share by another guy on TAM.
Edit: I read your post here above incorrectly. I have to make changes to what I posted.ee.

Edit: Never and always are absolutes. Absolutes are inherently wrong. You may not remember those posts. I doubt you've.....never.....seen them.

I've seen it too. Edit: (I've actually seen them.) Actually,<---remove for edit.ee.


I've seen it enough to remember that those posts are here on TAM somewhere. I cannot remember the opposite.

Admittedly, my memory is not what it used to be, and, I tend to forget those ridiculous posts like the ones you mentioned, because I don't take them seriously.

Do I place to much faith in the intelligence of the average woman reading TAM posts? I didn't think so, but maybe I'm wrong?


Sometimes women actually do have valid complaints and that lead them to have so much resentment that they don’t want sex with their husband.
And you are telling me in particular this, why?

Am I still upset about the way my ex was? When I really think about it, sure it bothers me.
Of course you are. Forgiveness has been discussed here many times. I think there is a thread right now. I've started threads on forgiveness.

It's damn tough to forgive, sometimes.



Why didn’t I leave as sooner? Well, it’s hard to know when to give up on a marriage. We see that all the time here. Plus, I felt that I had to wait until his children were out of high school because I was not willing to put children out on the street. And yes they would have been living on the street had I not supported them in every way that parents support children. Neither of their parents did squat for those kids.
You'd think they'd be able to get help from the state and federal governments to be able to live. They can in my state. Was this in Cali or NM?

You'd think that you would be willing to divorce, and still offer to take the children to buy clothes, food, etc., as a custodial parent might for children of their own.

Basically, you are telling me they were your own and your responsibility to care for, even though you were not their biological mother.

Alternately, you could have reported him to child services and had them put in a foster home and adopt them yourself. Then, you'd have them and wouldn't have to allow him in their lives.

Seems as though he was that bad, by your own comments.



Sure, there are as many different types of situations. That’s why no one solution fits them all. And they are all not cause by women.
Who, may I ask, said that there was only one solution? Who said all situations are caused by women?

Please post what comment(s) you believe said that.(from this thread)



And all not caused by men.
I honestly don't remember anyone claiming any of that in a post. Show me the post, please, so I have a chance to understand your points.

So far, I see opinions based on assumptions, but no real evidence(from this thread).


Sometimes they are caused by one person, sometimes both spouses are the problem. Communication is the key. Then if the couple cannot come to a compromise, then maybe the divorce.
This is just a "parrot" of what I posted. It's nothing new and (it's) redundant.



But this nonsense of telling all men in sexless marriages to stop doing anything to help around the house is, well, nonsense since we don’t really know the situation.
Again...Please post those comments you believe led you to this conclusion. Let me see where you are getting these ideas.(from this thread)

See, I can do the same as you. I can give you negative opinions of women all day long, if I want.

I can tell you how things are terrible and women are no good in one area or another and many are this way. I can tell you how why they do what they do and believe what they do.

I'm not a woman, so it's about as useless as what you posted here without evidence, context, and clarification.
 

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You are all correct and we men are all wrong. Well, maybe not all of you women or us men. See how that reads when I back off?

It reads like the truth is the first part, then I think about not offending everyone, and decide to say something a bit less controversial.
You're describing how people here, when called out, will say 'ok, yeah, so not EVERY man is a luddite.' Works both ways. It's human nature, we all do it. So what? Doesn't make the experiences behind the statements any less true.

Just say what you mean, like you did in that post. You were angry and let it out. That's okay. It didn't offend me.
You didn't answer my question as to which post you were referring to, so I still don't know what you're talking about. I saw that I revised #585, but that's just because I added the last sentence. And it was in response to john, not you.

It just made me ask tough questions that it seems most of you have decided you can't address, but instead defend your positions with controlled retreats and accusations that we know are all perfectly correct and honest from both sides of a relationship.

Would you like me to take this apart and respond to each point I think is important for you to consider or would you like to let it go?

I'll do whatever you want.
What questions? And please, be my guest. :)
 
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