All things being perfect yes, but not every man or woman knows how to communicate. The phrase "really man" sounds more like a woman's cover up so she doesn't have to look at herself.
When a man cheats, everything else goes out the window....
A good example of this was the movie Fatal Attraction. Michael Douglas cheats on his wife and he rightfully so is the bad guy. Though what gets lost is early in the movie his wife is shown to be giving there daughter more attention and him less.
I knew a woman that had a simular cheating situation happen to her. I asked her if she learned anything from it or knew what role she may have played in it for it to happen. She said no, there was nothing for me to learn. He was the one that cheated on me, she said.
Likely she will go into another relationship with someone else and do the same thing. Even if the guy tries to talk to her about it, she will likely not understand why he's complaining. Even though she will be doing the samething that was done in her last relationship that drove a guy to cheat. All because once a man cheats, it's all about him and nothing about what she did for him to consider stepping out.
I knew a woman that had a simular cheating situation happen to her. I asked her if she learned anything from it or knew what role she may have played in it for it to happen. She said no, there was nothing for me to learn. He was the one that cheated on me, she said.
Likely she will go into another relationship with someone else and do the same thing. Even if the guy tries to talk to her about it, she will likely not understand why he's complaining. Even though she will be doing the samething that was done in her last relationship that drove a guy to cheat. All because once a man cheats, it's all about him and nothing about what she did for him to consider stepping out.
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What makes you assume that he didn’t talk to his partner…. Many times… over a period of years?Wow, a real man would talk to his partner about how he feels not run out and stick his **** in another woman, really mature. Cheating is 100% on the cheater.
Read a few of the stories here and you’ll see countless examples of men and women that have pleaded with their partners for literally years and are either completely brushed off as being “needy” or they are accused of being sex addicts or they make some token gesture for a week or so and then go right back into stiff-arming their partner’s bids for attention and affection.
While I don’t condone or justify cheating, I think other than a small percentage of actual psychopaths and sociopaths, most people are not evil people that set out to be cheaters.
Most people don’t get some kind of brush off or some kind of argument or get some kind of rejection on a Saturday night and so they enter into an office affair or sign up for Ashley Madison on Monday morning.
The dynamics and processes that lay the groundwork and lead up to the affair can often take place over very long period of time or even YEARS.
But they could have divorced!!
Yeah, divorce isn’t something you do Monday morning after a tiff over the weekend either.
A divorce is a major life event. It’s an event that can leave both people living a lot lower standard of living, involve great financial expense, loss of the family home and in the best of circumstances involve a 50% reduction in access to the children.
Divorce vs outsourcing physical needs becomes a dilemma of the lesser of 3 evils.
Which is the least bad?
- losing your house, dividing marital assets, splitting the kids between two homes, paying up to tens if not hundreds of thousands in lawyer and court costs, dealing with custody issues, child support, possible spousal support etc etc?
- or discreetly getting those needs met outside the marriage?
- or living a long life of misery and deprivation and chronic dissatisfaction and resentment etc?
When those are your choices, which is the least bad?
It’s easy to vilify the WS and say it’s because they’re bad.
But statistically speaking the true narcissists, the psychopaths and sociopaths make up something like 5% of the general population.
That leaves 95% of people as just regular Joes and Janes.
And I would argue that the Regular Joes and Janes are not feeling a bit randy on a Saturday night when their partner is tired or not in the mood so they are signing up on Ashley Madison the next day.
These dynamics and processes are taking place over many many months if not literally over years, but nothing is breaking through to make any meaningful improvement.
If the cheater is completely repentant and is willing to do all that is needed to rebuilt trust, then yes there is hope and I could do what you do in that sense.Serious question though, if you feel like that, do you think you could do what I do, help people recover from it if they both want to? I think if I felt like that, I would lose all hope for humanity.
A better way if phrasing this is:What makes you assume that he didn’t talk to his partner…. Many times… over a period of years?
Read a few of the stories here and you’ll see countless examples of men and women that have pleaded with their partners for literally years and are either completely brushed off as being “needy” or they are accused of being sex addicts or they make some token gesture for a week or so and then go right back into stiff-arming their partner’s bids for attention and affection.
While I don’t condone or justify cheating, I think other than a small percentage of actual psychopaths and sociopaths, most people are not evil people that set out to be cheaters.
Most people don’t get some kind of brush off or some kind of argument or get some kind of rejection on a Saturday night and so they enter into an office affair or sign up for Ashley Madison on Monday morning.
The dynamics and processes that lay the groundwork and lead up to the affair can often take place over very long period of time or even YEARS.
But they could have divorced!!
Yeah, divorce isn’t something you do Monday morning after a tiff over the weekend either.
A divorce is a major life event. It’s an event that can leave both people living a lot lower standard of living, involve great financial expense, loss of the family home and in the best of circumstances involve a 50% reduction in access to the children.
Divorce vs outsourcing physical needs becomes a dilemma of the lesser of 3 evils.
Which is the least bad?
- losing your house, dividing marital assets, splitting the kids between two homes, paying up to tens if not hundreds of thousands in lawyer and court costs, dealing with custody issues, child support, possible spousal support etc etc?
- or discreetly getting those needs met outside the marriage?
- or living a long life of misery and deprivation and chronic dissatisfaction and resentment etc?
When those are your choices, which is the least bad?
It’s easy to vilify the WS and say it’s because they’re bad.
But statistically speaking the true narcissists, the psychopaths and sociopaths make up something like 5% of the general population.
That leaves 95% of people as just regular Joes and Janes.
And I would argue that the Regular Joes and Janes are not feeling a bit randy on a Saturday night when their partner is tired or not in the mood so they are signing up on Ashley Madison the next day.
These dynamics and processes are taking place over many many months if not literally over years, but nothing is breaking through to make any meaningful improvement.
Both spouse can contribute to an environment conducive to someone cheating.
However it’s still always one spouses choice to pull the trigger and do it.
Sorry, no matter how many times you leave your keys in the car, you have committed no wrong. The thief is ALWAYS at fault. I think the rule is that an omission to act is never itself a crime unless the law imposes a duty. It may not be wise to leave the keys (i.e. to be trusting), but you've committed no wrong you need to atone for. You are just choosing the wrong place to park. (i.e. your picker might be broken - something counseling could help?) Non-criminal acts are not a basis to cause a criminal act. Note, just for fun, that in 17 US states, adultery IS a criminal act.
In cases where someone is knowingly rejecting their partner and rebuffing any attempts to discuss and address the issues and are disregarding the other person's well being, then I disagree that no wrong is being committed.Sorry, no matter how many times you leave your keys in the car, you have committed no wrong. The thief is ALWAYS at fault. I think the rule is that an omission to act is never itself a crime unless the law imposes a duty. It may not be wise to leave the keys (i.e. to be trusting), but you've committed no wrong you need to atone for. You are just choosing the wrong place to park. (i.e. your picker might be broken - something counseling could help?) Non-criminal acts are not a basis to cause a criminal act. Note, just for fun, that in 17 US states, adultery IS a criminal act.
If you know that your partner is suffering due to lack of love and affection and you intentionally refuse to address the issues with them and continue to chronically reject them, then IMHO that is a wrong and they are not an innocent victim. They knowingly and willingly contributed to the dynamic that common sense would understand that infidelity would be a risk.
Now of course not all cases of infidelity are due to chronic rejection and infidelity can occur when the BS is acting in good faith.
But my point is knowingly causing your partner distress and refusing to address the issue with them is a wrong. And it is a wrong for which it is very predictable that it can lead to a break down and destruction of the relationship in a variety of ways including infidelity.
Agree - that behavior is a wrong. Do you respond to that behavior with a crime? In some places, adultery is still actually a crime. I know I'm being a little facetious, and we see on TAM many men and women suffering from poor behavior / lack of attention. It absolutely justifies a response. I agree.
Where I differ (and I concede - I have a very legalistic, Javert brain...but so do many people) is that responding with betrayal/infidelity is a difference in kind, NOT simply degree. It's not on the continuum. I guess I'm reverting to legalism again, but i see Infidelity as shifting the burden. Once it happens, the betrayed spouse's prior actions are not relevant to the discussion. The relationship has moved to a completely different universe where the applicable physics are different.
Where I differ (and I concede - I have a very legalistic, Javert brain...but so do many people) is that responding with betrayal/infidelity is a difference in kind, NOT simply degree. It's not on the continuum. I guess I'm reverting to legalism again, but i see Infidelity as shifting the burden. Once it happens, the betrayed spouse's prior actions are not relevant to the discussion. The relationship has moved to a completely different universe where the applicable physics are different.
I agree with her and I have helped couples reconcile.Serious question though, if you feel like that, do you think you could do what I do, help people recover from it if they both want to? I think if I felt like that, I would lose all hope for humanity.
Do you disagree that people choose to cheat?
I've been through some extremely trying times myself and been sorely tempted during the worst possible moments and I chose not to.
I understand those in weakness but it is still their choice. No one (outside of a gestapo) drives anyone to drop their drawers for the wrong person.
I mentioned it in another thread, but its worth mentioning here as well..In cases where someone is knowingly rejecting their partner and rebuffing any attempts to discuss and address the issues and are disregarding the other person's well being, then I disagree that no wrong is being committed.
If you know that your partner is suffering due to lack of love and affection and you intentionally refuse to address the issues with them and continue to chronically reject them, then IMHO that is a wrong and they are not an innocent victim. They knowingly and willingly contributed to the dynamic that common sense would understand that infidelity would be a risk.
Now of course not all cases of infidelity are due to chronic rejection and infidelity can occur when the BS is acting in good faith.
But my point is knowingly causing your partner distress and refusing to address the issue with them is a wrong. And it is a wrong for which it is very predictable that it can lead to a break down and destruction of the relationship in a variety of ways including infidelity.
I agree with you that in most cases, there are circumstances brought out that drive people to do what they otherwise wouldn't...
And, IME, guys do have a way with compartmentalizing these things in their lives...If their wife decides to "shut the factory" and leave the guy with his **** in his hand, then he faces the dilemma you raised...I often put it this way...Its like a rat being in a maze...There is no way to get to the cheese, and if he wants to jump out, a cat will kill him on the way down...
I mentioned it in another thread...Guy I have known for many years...What started as the usual weaning off and excuses, eventually turned into a sexless marriage...he didn't hate her, and they otherwise got along ok, but the sex was gone and it was 100% her that decided to unilaterally make that decision for him...He was left with all the negative aspects of divorce and disruption of his and his kids lives, etc....or "figure out" the sex part...and stay...
He chose to get with a couple of high level call girls over the years...It wasn't ideal by any means, but it was able to get him by...He figured that the money he spent on the women, would be merely a fraction of what he'd lose in a divorce settlement....He thought that deep down she knew, but said nothing about it, even though Id imagine she wasn't thrilled with it...
I can't tell you the amount of guys that I also know that had the same fate, but would never cheat, so they spend decades jerking themselves off to not lose their minds...They may want to divorce, but the thought of losing everything and starting over is just too daunting and in some cases, unaffordable, really...
Point is, this stuff rarely happens in a vacuum...
I agree with most of that except that cheaters often cheat down, not up.It's not hard to understand but rather it is very threatening to the ego.
In my youth I was cheated on and devastated by a couple LTR GFs that I was in love with. When I was doing the Nancy Kerrigan "WWWHHHHYYYYYYYYY??!" My options as to why they cheated and broke my heart were either I was not tall enough, good looking enough, sexy enough or good enough in bed etc .............. or that they were skanky ho's.
Which option do you think my 19 and 22 year old ego went with?
Now was that the more healthy and self-reflective option that lead to more personal growth and long term development of the self?? Probably not.
But when you're already heartbroken and your self esteem has already taken a big hit, it is a big ask to ask someone to do some serious self-reflection and ask them what their contribution to the situation was.
Many will see MC as a 'blame-the-victim' type thing when the BS is asked to examine what their role in the WS hooking up with a random at the bar was.
As disinterested 3rd parties we may be able to sit and see the rational when the BS hasn't touched the WS in a year and the only interaction between them is the BS criticising them for every little thing they do.
But when you're self esteem is already in the toilet and you've already had your heart broken and now you are being told to examine why your partner is getting with someone better looking and sexier and more interesting etc it can overwhelm the ego and threaten one's sense of self even more.
Now maybe in the long run, sure, that self reflection and personal accountability can lead to growth and development and self improvement etc. But the ego will fight for it's own survival in the opening acts and it's target will be the WS no matter how crappy of a partner the BS really was at the time.
Blaming women for everything sounds like a cover up so you don’t have to look at yourself.All things being perfect yes, but not every man or woman knows how to communicate. The phrase "really man" sounds more like a woman's cover up so she doesn't have to look at herself.
Any troubles in the marriage are on both parties, 100%. But cheating is always on the cheater. Regardless of whether it was the man or woman who cheated.
Affairs can be anything from a one night stand to years of lying and deceit, and they can start from any reason such as sexless marriage to "but we were just friends" and everything in between.
In saying that, a spouse who neglects their spouses needs, does need to be aware that they're putting their marriage at grave risk, and leaving it wide open to infidelity.
Affairs can be anything from a one night stand to years of lying and deceit, and they can start from any reason such as sexless marriage to "but we were just friends" and everything in between.
In saying that, a spouse who neglects their spouses needs, does need to be aware that they're putting their marriage at grave risk, and leaving it wide open to infidelity.
To me, that depends what the "discussion" is about.i see Infidelity as shifting the burden. Once it happens, the betrayed spouse's prior actions are not relevant to the discussion.
If it's about "which one of these two people is the guilty party" then you're right.
If it's about "how can we now create a better marriage", then I disagree. The answer to that will involve both.
I'm glad to hear that.I agree with her and I have helped couples reconcile.
No, I don't disagree. But I think circumstances do drive people. I disagreed with Diana's remark about nobody drives someone to cheat. I think people are subject to a lot of pressures. And, as I keep saying, my task is not like a judge deciding who's the bad person. I'm more like how do we ensure this doesn't happen again?Do you disagree that people choose to cheat?
No one drives anyone to cheat. They choose to cheat.
With respect to cheating and bad behavior in general:Serious question though, if you feel like that, do you think you could do what I do, help people recover from it if they both want to? I think if I felt like that, I would lose all hope for humanity.
Sad to say, I am fully there, with half of humanity.
And half way there with the rest!
Until....
The notion of that Greater Fate comes into focus.
Mankind is still primitive.
They are so damn susceptible to destructive trends.
With bad history repeating itself.
Our genetics and chemistry precludes any permanent evolutionary and moral advancement.
We are doomed to be good looking apes!
Married 35 year olds with young children and mortgages may cheat down as circumstances allow.I agree with most of that except that cheaters often cheat down, not up.
But young, single women hitting the club scene have a sea of humanity to pick from.
I was actually thinking mostly about my experiences with men I was around. I would say they mostly cheated down. Just pretty indiscriminate. These were young men.Married 35 year olds with young children and mortgages may cheat down as circumstances allow.
But young, single women hitting the club scene have a sea of humanity to pick from.
You hit the nail on the head. "Real men" are expected to suck it up, stay quiet, and get on with being good little providers.- or living a long life of misery and deprivation and chronic dissatisfaction and resentment etc?
That's the message sent when there is no empathy given toward them.
Any other option results in the loss of their house, family, and children.
I do disagree with you as well on this point.But I think circumstances do drive people. I disagreed with Diana's remark about nobody drives someone to cheat.
No one drives someone to have sex with someone they shouldn't outside of coercion and the like.
I do agree that circumstances and poor treatment of a spouse leaves a more vulnerable situation for infidelity to be chosen. It is still solely on the cheater who chose that path.
I understand what you're saying of course, about strengthening the marriage overall but the cheater needs personal reform because their spouse in no way made them do it.
We're getting into a lot of hypothetical here but I think you are looking at it from the "American Model" where some of the puritanical ideologies on sex stil reverberate and that the act of sex in and of itself still carries more sin than an act not physically involving sex.Agree - that behavior is a wrong. Do you respond to that behavior with a crime? In some places, adultery is still actually a crime. I know I'm being a little facetious, and we see on TAM many men and women suffering from poor behavior / lack of attention. It absolutely justifies a response. I agree.
Where I differ (and I concede - I have a very legalistic, Javert brain...but so do many people) is that responding with betrayal/infidelity is a difference in kind, NOT simply degree. It's not on the continuum. I guess I'm reverting to legalism again, but i see Infidelity as shifting the burden. Once it happens, the betrayed spouse's prior actions are not relevant to the discussion. The relationship has moved to a completely different universe where the applicable physics are different.
In other words sex in and of itself is the 'crime' you speak. There for having sex falls into higher crimes and misdemeanors than anything being committed without the physical act of sex.
Where as in the "European Model" shirking your family duties and breaking up a family unit for your own personal desires is often considered the higher crime than taking care of your personal needs on your own time.
Using @Hamadryad’s scenario above, is there actually a crime (other than prostitution) “betrayal” or even foul there?
She no longer wanted a marital sex life but neither wanted divorce. She still wanted the other utilities and benefits of marriage that he provided and he did not want the expense or disruption of divorce so he opted to meet his personal needs elsewhere without continuing to badger her.
As she did not want to perform those tasks, is she really being “betrayed” or is she in fact relieved to no longer have that pressure on her?
Her concern would likely not be that he was screwing someone else but that eventually he would leave for someone else.
So once she realizes he’s not leaving, is there actually a foul that he is getting his own needs met elsewhere?
21 - 40 of 118 Posts
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