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So to further expand, is it your position that some sort of vows need to be exchanged before it's a marriage? Or can the marriage be a state of being...
It appears that currently at least 7 states still recognize common law marriage.
 

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Discussion Starter · #62 ·
It appears that currently at least 7 states still recognize common law marriage.
I know Utah is one, because there was talk of using it against the Browns of Sister Wives fame.

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I think North and South Carolina are two others, and maybe Virginia
  • Colorado—(Colo. Rev. Stat. Ann. §14-2-109.5.)
  • Iowa—(Iowa Code Ann. §§252A.3 and 1A.)
  • Kansas—(Kan. Stat. §§23-2502 and 23-2714.)
  • Montana—(Mont. Code Ann. §40-1-403.)
  • New Hampshire—(N.H. Rev. Stat. Ann. §457:39.)
  • Oklahoma
  • Rhode Island
  • Texas —(Tex. Fam. Code §2.401.)
  • Utah—(Utah Code Ann. §30-1-4.5.)
And it's not exactly like people think.

 

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  • Colorado—(Colo. Rev. Stat. Ann. §14-2-109.5.)
  • Iowa—(Iowa Code Ann. §§252A.3 and 1A.)
  • Kansas—(Kan. Stat. §§23-2502 and 23-2714.)
  • Montana—(Mont. Code Ann. §40-1-403.)
  • New Hampshire—(N.H. Rev. Stat. Ann. §457:39.)
  • Oklahoma
  • Rhode Island
  • Texas —(Tex. Fam. Code §2.401.)
  • Utah—(Utah Code Ann. §30-1-4.5.)
And it's not exactly like people think.

Not Florida? Durn, I've filed so many tax returns jointly. Gotta check my files.

Obviously just kidding 🤣🤣🤣
 

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  • Colorado—(Colo. Rev. Stat. Ann. §14-2-109.5.)
  • Iowa—(Iowa Code Ann. §§252A.3 and 1A.)
  • Kansas—(Kan. Stat. §§23-2502 and 23-2714.)
  • Montana—(Mont. Code Ann. §40-1-403.)
  • New Hampshire—(N.H. Rev. Stat. Ann. §457:39.)
  • Oklahoma
  • Rhode Island
  • Texas —(Tex. Fam. Code §2.401.)
  • Utah—(Utah Code Ann. §30-1-4.5.)
And it's not exactly like people think.

That is SO strange because I was certain someone told me NC was a common-law marriage state if you lived together!!

Wow, that's for looking that up, it's very interesting!
 

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By this I am not asking what makes it successful or anything like that. What I want to know is what makes it an actual marriage?

Is it being registered with the government? And yes, to receive the legal benefits you do have to be registered. But do those legal benefits make the relationship a marriage? Can you have a marriage without that piece of paper (virtual as it might be nowadays).

Is it only a marriage if one had a ceremony done by a cleric of one's chosen deity? Or does only your own deity count, and theirs doesn't? Can atheist be married outside of government recognition?

What are the criteria that makes any given relationship the status of marriage?

Or are there various types of marriages that each have their own criteria?
Hmmm. I don't acknowledge any man or man made construction when it comes to marriage. It's kind of funny because I fully believe God made marriage and all that entails but that also means that I believe men should butt the hell out when it comes to unions because that isn't anyone's business but those involved as long as everyone is a empowered and consenting adult.

It might seem contradictory, but I'm an advocate for government getting the hell out of marriage. If the government decided I wasn't married tomorrow they would have their brains in their laps tomorrow.

I'm actually for everyone determining their own status and power of attorney and everything that entails. The government couldn't run a lemonade stand so they can stay the hell away from personal choices and arrangements.

I'm basically labeled an alpha male, conservative Christian but I'm friends with people from across many spectrums without any compromise in my life.

I have good friends that do not practice anything close to what I do but we exchange recipes and wine advise and I don't, and have never, hidden who I am nor do they feel the need.
 

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Hmmm. I don't acknowledge any man or man made construction when it comes to marriage. It's kind of funny because I fully believe God made marriage and all that entails but that also means that I believe men should butt the hell out when it comes to unions because that isn't anyone's business but those involved as long as everyone is a empowered and consenting adult.

It might seem contradictory, but I'm an advocate for government getting the hell out of marriage. If the government decided I wasn't married tomorrow they would have their brains in their laps tomorrow.

I'm actually for everyone determining their own status and power of attorney and everything that entails. The government couldn't run a lemonade stand so they can stay the hell away from personal choices and arrangements.

I'm basically labeled an alpha male, conservative Christian but I'm friends with people from across many spectrums without any compromise in my life.

I have good friends that do not practice anything close to what I do but we exchange recipes and wine advise and I don't, and have never, hidden who I am not do they feel the need.
I agree mostly...I'd like government out of EVERYTHING!!! Lol!!

However, if you want the tax credits for being married, the government will always insist on keeping record and holding you to THEIR rules.

Years ago when I was homeschooling my kids, there was a ballot item about homeschoolers getting a tax credit from each county for the fact that we were all considered "schools" in my state, and the argument was that we should get a similar amount of money for our "students".

However, a group of us lobbied AGAINST that, because we predicted that if we took government money, we would need to follow their rules and answer even more to them with how to educate our children. And none of us wanted that!
 

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I agree mostly...I'd like government out of EVERYTHING!!! Lol!!

However, if you want the tax credits for being married, the government will always insist on keeping record and holding you to THEIR rules.

Years ago when I was homeschooling my kids, there was a ballot item about homeschoolers getting a tax credit from each county for the fact that we were all considered "schools" in my state, and the argument was that we should get a similar amount of money for our "students".

However, a group of us lobbied AGAINST that, because we predicted that if we took government money, we would need to follow their rules and answer even more to them with how to educate our children. And none of us wanted that!
Yup. I think a lot of us need to wake up and tell the government to go to hell.😉
 

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I did ask your opinion and you initially gave me something that left other questions. You have now expended on that. Thank you.

So to further expand, is it your position that some sort of vows need to be exchanged before it's a marriage? Or can the marriage be a state of being, vows of action to turn a phrase? I am further guessing that you would say that even if the couple said their vows to Thor (which is a deity some pagans still worship to this day), given your belief in your God, He hears it and it is still a valid marriage?

Again, I am not criticizing your opinion, but exploring it.
I was not being defensive, it's just my style.

Anyway exactly. It's the promise, it's not the God part. Though I think there is a God part. If you don't make the promise, you're just living together.
 
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Discussion Starter · #71 ·
I was not being defensive, it's just my style.
Being a written forum with no visual or audio cues, one can never be certain. So I try to play it safe.

Anyway exactly. It's the promise, it's not the God part. Though I think there is a God part. If you don't make the promise, you're just living together.
I have one more question after this, but I want the answer to this one first. Do you just accept the word of those claiming that they are married, or do you make your own judgement as to whether they actually are or not?
 

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Being a written forum with no visual or audio cues, one can never be certain. So I try to play it safe.



I have one more question after this, but I want the answer to this one first. Do you just accept the word of those claiming that they are married, or do you make your own judgement as to whether they actually are or not?
Generally speaking I accept peoples word about most things until there behavior causes me to question their sincerity. It's too hard to live otherwise.
 

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Discussion Starter · #73 ·
Generally speaking I accept peoples word about most things until there behavior causes me to question their sincerity. It's too hard to live otherwise.
To follow this up, and understanding that you have your own personal religious/spiritual beliefs, do you accept marriages outside those beliefs as valid? For example, and not automatically assuming these are against your beliefs, same sex marriages or poly marriages. For the sake of the question assume no coercion or abuse.

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Sorry, either I missed the question or got distracted by family matters.

Well in the stories I've read, they have been as little as a year to as long as a set number of decades. There were aspects of couples talking about renewing the marriage, and others who departed on good terms when it was up. It would definatly require an entire different legal system for such things.
Lol. Sorry. I didn’t ask the question. I was just really curious and thought you were going to fill in more information. 😁

the longer lifespan makes it more perplexing to say the least, but I guess humans 400 years ago could say the same about us.

I like your original question better in this way looking at the long lifespan. Time is the “high stakes” factor for us in our current situation, so I guess if I broke it down to base level, there needs to be some other sort of high stakes factor. Reason being, why get married at all then? There needs to be some level of commitment so that one person doesn’t just screw over the other(s), you know?

the next best thing I can think of is children. I know a lot of people think we are not meant to be monogamous. I think arguments for that are very reasonable. On the flip side of that, we need to have children if we care to keep our species going, correct? No children, no humans. Human children are about as helpless as it gets. Sure, there are plenty of helpless infants in the animal kingdom, but our offspring are by far and away the most helpless, and it is for MANY years. I personally believe this is why we are monogamous…. Or arguably, polygamous. One way or the other, our offspring have the best chance to survive to adulthood and be able to take care of themselves if they have multiple parents (preferably good male and female role models). If we take away our current technology, I’m going to say that parental help and “training” would be required until at least the age of 14-15. That is A LOT of commitment when compared to the animal kingdom.

so, it makes sense to me to have a stable marriage (monogamous or polygamous) until the children are capable of taking care of themselves. So let’s use the children as the new high stakes commitment term. Any child had in the marriage makes the term 15 years. Any subsequent child after the first restarts the 15 year timer.

your thoughts, @maquiscat?
 

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To follow this up, and understanding that you have your own personal religious/spiritual beliefs, do you accept marriages outside those beliefs as valid? For example, and not automatically assuming these are against your beliefs, same sex marriages or poly marriages. For the sake of the question assume no coercion or abuse.

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I mean that depends. As far as this marriage thing, if someone believes they are married then I accept that they are married. Not sure if it matters what I think anyway. I guess if I was trying to date the person? But generally speaking if your asking if they get married by the satanic church do I accept they are married? Like I said if they make the promise then in my mind they are married. My point about God is, I believe when you make the promise of marriage it's in front of God even if you don't believe in him or think he is a puppy. I think God is God and no one really has the ability to understand that he just is, in my mind. The point is there is more weight to that promise, it's not about not eating a cookie or something.

Poly marriage in my mind is a different thing then monogamous marriage (whatever the gender that is ). There is a lot more logistics in the promise, but I would say when you make a commitment to someone, keep your word. I certainly think there can be cheating or vows broken. I mean even in the bible there are poly marriages and it's pretty clear that there is still adultery. So there should be no reason for my belief system to not still see it that way.

Can you marry your dog or a cucumber. No.

So my turn, why are you asking the questions? Are you doing a paper or something?
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
So my turn, why are you asking the questions? Are you doing a paper or something?
No, and I can think of some other things I would rather do research on if I could have the funding to back me. Mostly curiosity, and a desire to know not only what people believe but why. These kind of topics fascinate me.
 

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No, and I can think of some other things I would rather do research on if I could have the funding to back me. Mostly curiosity, and a desire to know not only what people believe but why. These kind of topics fascinate me.
So what do you believe?
 
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Discussion Starter · #78 ·
So what do you believe?
That there is no one institution of marriage. Marriage comes in several forms, and we can engage in which ones we want according to our needs and wants.

Legal marriage is all about the legal benefits, and love or kids not required. Quite honestly, if two people are planning on making a long term go of things, then there is no reason why they should not be able to obtain a legal marriage. A stable household for a long term, even if it is not forever, is an advantageous thing for society. And given that sex is not a requirement for legal marriage, and that legal marriage is not a requirement nor permission for sex, nor the lack of it a denial for sex, I also have no problem with this form being allowed to even related people. While there are many legal benefits already in place simply by being related, not all marriage benefits are also ones for related people. So those extra benefits could be advantageous to a stable long term household.

Religious marriage is all about what your deity says marriage is. If He/She says it's about love then don't marry for the children. If it's about business, find the most financially advatagous spouse (as it used to be in many cultures (The reason for marriage, not a religion's edict). As you marry before a government official (or approved substitute) for the law, so too do you marry before your Deity's clergy for said Deity.

Social marriage, while really vague and subjective, is very important to a lot of people, whether they realize it or not. To most people it's important to them that their friends and family recognize their marriage. It is the social marriage that leads to the local community support, however that develops out. These are the kinds of marriages where neither the government nor a Deity (at least according to Its adherents) might recognize it, but their neighbors, family, and/or other social members do. My mother, a few months before she passed showed this to me. While she had been calling my husband and other wife (the ones I do not have the legal ties to) her son and daughter in law. But then one day when talking about my other wife said, "speaking of name, or should I say your other wife." I damn near cried. But that is a perfect example of social marriage, or at least the recognition of one.

And then there is personal marriage. In the end that is defined by the ones in the marriage. Think of all the people who used to (and still are in some countries) be placed in arranged marriages. Do you really think that they think they are married simply because their god, government or parents say they are? I doubt it. Maybe they grow to feel that way later, maybe they don't. I was married to my wife long before we went to the court or had a ceremony. Granted, we had many friends and family who agreed with us giving us the social marriage as well. But that followed us being in a state of marriage first before they saw it.

All these of course are boiled down generalizations. I'm sure we could get into further specifics, but those would seem to me to be sub-categories, not specific types. It should also be noted that with all these, save maybe personal marriage, that there are multiple groups of each type; government, religion, social groups. As such, simply because one of the group recognizes that type of marriage, it does not automatically mean others of that type will. There are Christian religions who won't recognize a Wiccan marriage, save maybe by its legal aspect. A US marriage isn't necessarily recognized by say Zimbabwe (making an example. Don't know the actual status).

Does that answer your question?
 

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@maquiscat

Damn dude, I don't know about @sokillme , but that answered the question for me. I've never seen such a clear and concise description of all that. And those last couple sentences in Social marriage genuinely brought a tear to my eye. Those small moments like that can mean so much and have such a huge impact. That is a mother's unconditional love and acceptance right there.
 
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