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By this I am not asking what makes it successful or anything like that. What I want to know is what makes it an actual marriage?

Is it being registered with the government? And yes, to receive the legal benefits you do have to be registered. But do those legal benefits make the relationship a marriage? Can you have a marriage without that piece of paper (virtual as it might be nowadays).

Is it only a marriage if one had a ceremony done by a cleric of one's chosen deity? Or does only your own deity count, and theirs doesn't? Can atheist be married outside of government recognition?

What are the criteria that makes any given relationship the status of marriage?

Or are there various types of marriages that each have their own criteria?
 

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To me marriage at it's root is a formal recognition of a committed, romantic/sexual and monogamous relationship between two people. Government recognition isn't needed, nor is church recognition IMO. It is between the two people making the commitment.

How you go about that formal recognition doesn't matter much to me, so long as the two people involved make that commitment. Some would say it is a commitment before God. Although I am pretty much in alignment with Christian beliefs I am not a religious person, so I think you can still make that commitment even if you are atheist.

The paperwork and legal recognition by the government is important to get the legal benefits associated with marriage. However, I don't think that is a requirement to be called a marriage.
 

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To us it's the making of promises to be committed and faithful to each other. To love and care for each other. All legally done according to the laws of the country we live in. In front of witnesses.
We didn't get married in a church but were very much aware that God was there when we made these vows and that He is with us in our marriage.
 

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I think it’s the making a formal and public commitment that makes it a marriage. Could be legal and/or religious, something bigger than yourself.

I knew a couple who said vows alone together on a beach one night and called themselves “married” for a while, but they weren’t. He was just trying to shut her up, and eventually she realized it wasn’t real and went on her way without the trouble of a divorce.

If you haven’t in some way declared yourself accountable to keep your commitment (to your church, family and friends, or the state), then it may well be a loving and committed relationship, but it isn’t a marriage.
 

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The original vows define most of it quite well.
verbal vows are one thing - but the legalities of lawful marriage are what gives the government some legal teeth to back it up.

Anyone can say anything. And they may even mean it at the time. But people can and do change their mind.

The legal contract of marriage is protect people's rights while in the marriage and to formally pass down assets and properties to rightful heirs in the event of death.

And it is also to provide some legally binding structure in dividing up the assets and properties and insure the continued care and provisioning of minor children in the event one decides to end the relationship.

Right now there is kind of a big push in the manosphere and red pill community discouraging men from marrying because since women initiate 80% of divorces and in a divorce he would presumably lose half of the stuff.

But without marriage, someone could potentially take ALL of it while he was at work and his only legal recourse would be to file a theft report and hope the police and courts actually do something about it. At least with a lawful marriage the courts will have to follow procedure in dividing assets and support of the children through legal channels.

Legal marriage isn't really there for when people are happy and loving and things are going well. Marriage is there for when people get sick, die or split up.
 

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verbal vows are one thing - but the legalities of lawful marriage are what gives the government some legal teeth to back it up.

Anyone can say anything. And they may even mean it at the time. But people can and do change their mind.

The legal contract of marriage is protect people's rights while in the marriage and to formally pass down assets and properties to rightful heirs in the event of death.

And it is also to provide some legally binding structure in dividing up the assets and properties and insure the continued care and provisioning of minor children in the event one decides to end the relationship.

Right now there is kind of a big push in the manosphere and red pill community discouraging men from marrying because since women initiate 80% of divorces and in a divorce he would presumably lose half of the stuff.

But without marriage, someone could potentially take ALL of it while he was at work and his only legal recourse would be to file a theft report and hope the police and courts actually do something about it. At least with a lawful marriage the courts will have to follow procedure in dividing assets and support of the children through legal channels.

Legal marriage isn't really there for when people are happy and loving and things are going well. Marriage is there for when people get sick, die or split up.
You just explained almost every reason I think government should have nothing to do with marriage.
 

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I think it really matters personally to each individual, and also how they define it as a couple. And I think it also depends on what the purpose of their relationship is.

I certainly don't believe that a legal, government recognized marriage guarantees any more commitment from either person, or success for the relationship.
 

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But without marriage, someone could potentially take ALL of it while he was at work and his only legal recourse would be to file a theft report and hope the police and courts actually do something about it. At least with a lawful marriage the courts will have to follow procedure in dividing assets and support of the children through legal channels.
I have to disagree there. Most assets aren't going to be sitting around your house. Rental property, stock, bonds, bank accounts, crypto..........you get the point. If anything marriage gives the other person more financial access.
 

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I think it really matters personally to each individual, and also how they define it as a couple. And I think it also depends on what the purpose of their relationship is.

I certainly don't believe that a legal, government recognized marriage guarantees any more commitment from either person, or success for the relationship.
Far more people who live together break up than people who marry.
 

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I have to disagree there. Most assets aren't going to be sitting around your house. Rental property, stock, bonds, bank accounts, crypto..........you get the point. If anything marriage gives the other person more financial access.
perhaps yes, perhaps no.

My point is that marriage provides a legally obligated means of asset division in the event of break up.

It's complex and contentious for sure, but in a marriage the two parties are legally required to come to the table and divide assets in a legally prescribed manner.

Some assets and properties will be considered marital and some will be considered personal. if you are not married to someone and you have a joint account (which is insane IMHO) there is nothing stopping that person from taking every last cent and hitting the road with her new BF. You can file a civil lawsuit and hope the jury sides with you, but there is otherwise no other legal recourse.

If she takes golf clubs and gun collection with her, you can file a theft report with the police and see if they so much as lift a finger to find her or get the stuff back.

If her name is on any of the other properties and assets, she can basically do with them as she pleases and your recourse will all be AFTER the fact and will all be contingent on how well you present your case to civil lawsuit in front of a civil trial jury.

In a legal marriage, the asset division is at least somewhat preemptive and you are going into it with the legally supported presumption of at least getting around half.

If someone runs off with everything without that preemptive assumption, you'll pay out the wazoo in hopes getting something back but run the risk of getting nothing.
 

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I certainly don't believe that a legal, government recognized marriage guarantees any more commitment from either person, or success for the relationship.
I does not guarantee more happiness or more likelihood of success, but it does guarantee more work and more expense in leaving the relationship.

That can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective.
 

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You just explained almost every reason I think government should have nothing to do with marriage.
At it's core, the primary role of government is to prevent Darwinism. It's for the children (some sarcasm, but a lot of truth to it)

Pregnant and nursing women and their offspring are in a very vulnerable position. It's difficult for a pregnant/nursing mother of infants to hunt animal protein and historically relied on the father to provide meat for a gestating or nursing baby.

Many males will do this if they are reasonably certain that the offspring is their own progeny. But some won't. Some will abandon putting both the mother's and the offsprings life at risk.

Many males will often not support the mother and offspring if he finds out the offspring is not his biological child, and if the biological father will not bring them meat or protect them from predators, then again their lives are in peril.

And finally, people wanted a system to where their tools, weaponry and property and assets were passed down to their rightful progeny and not up for grabs by the rest of the tribe or an invading tribe.

Thus the system of legally recognised mating, provisioning and protecting in sickness and health and legally recognised channels of passing down wealth was born.

Otherwise we resort back to Darwinism and whoever was the strongest and most vigorous on that particular day clubs the other other the head first and wins.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
You just explained almost every reason I think government should have nothing to do with marriage.
Wait. You think it should be that there is no legal recognition and if someone looses all their worldly goods, as described, then too bad so sad, go whine to the police?
 

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I does not guarantee more happiness or more likelihood of success, but it does guarantee more work and more expense in leaving the relationship.

That can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective.
Well, it doesn't guarantee the most important part of a committed romantic partnership -- the commitment and emotional interest. Feelings that are given under duress and/or because my partner has no other choice are worthless to me.

Trapping someone in a relationship with me is the LAST thing I want to do. I only want someone who freely chooses to be with me.

And it does guarantee more work and expense to dissolve the legal contract, but it doesn't guarantee any more work or expense in physically and emotionally leaving the relationship. Anyone who feels a sense of security in that guarantee is clinging to a ghost.
 

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There are too many variables at play for those couples to be able to make any solid judgment about the reasons for that, though. That fact, in and of itself, implies nothing.
We will have to agree to disagree.
 

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I does not guarantee more happiness or more likelihood of success, but it does guarantee more work and more expense in leaving the relationship.

That can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective.
I believe that those who have made the effort to legally make a public committment in marriage will put more effort into keeping that marriage.
 
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