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Discussion Starter #61 (Edited)
Free will is permitting one's (own) past to influence decisions today.

One's free will decision matrix is rather fixed. At least on important matters.

Small matters, such as chocolate or vanilla ice cream decisions can be more flexible.

The key thing here is that as one ages, their past (and its impact on decisions) get larger and new decisions can vary somewhat from the original.


You would think that maturity would bring more free will.
I say the opposite.

Maturity often brings wisdom and wisdom scans past memories for the best decision.
Having wisdom makes one pain and conflict avoidant.

Since we did not create ourselves or create the environment, we thus have (just a little) true free will.
We are subservient to the soup that created us and which we move about in.

We are are actively mobile, self replicating, eating, pooping, respiring and programmed electro-chemical protein machines.
 

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Jail ministries...for any religion. I know and have known quite a few people who's lives were turned around by embracing religion in prison. I know several Christians and Muslims who were NOT "frightened" into anything, they embraced the forgiveness that they believed was offered to them from God, and have chosen to live a good life out of GRATITUDE for that forgiveness, NOT fear.
I'm not denying that peoples' behaviour can change for the better.

But ask yourself why would anyone embrace forgiveness unless it allowed them to escape retribution? Retribution that they have been convinced to FEAR. Without fear, be it of the myth of hell, the indoctrination of self-hate, or the possibility of improving their chances of parole, better treatment etc. why bother? We are, ultimately selfish - if there is no perceived benefit we continue as before.
 

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Discussion Starter #63
Jail ministries...for any religion. I know and have known quite a few people who's lives were turned around by embracing religion in prison. I know several Christians and Muslims who were NOT "frightened" into anything, they embraced the forgiveness that they believed was offered to them from God, and have chosen to live a good life out of GRATITUDE for that forgiveness, NOT fear.
Religion gives those with no hope, available hope.
Those in prison or those in misery can certainly benefit from hope and The Thought that God loves them.

Prison gives everyone locked down a lot of time to think and reconsider their past and their future.
Many in prison lacked introspection. Solitude forces it on you.
 
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I'm not denying that peoples' behaviour can change for the better.

But ask yourself why would anyone embrace forgiveness unless it allowed them to escape retribution? Retribution that they have been convinced to FEAR. Without fear, be it of the myth of hell, the indoctrination of self-hate, or the possibility of improving their chances of parole, better treatment etc. why bother? We are, ultimately selfish - if there is no perceived benefit we continue as before.
Well, also, please explain how these changes on the grand scale (as you put it) are BAD...?

None of the people I knew were trying to escape "retribution"...they actually felt like a Higher Power/Creator's love and acceptance and the sense of purpose healed the rejected, unloved parts of them they had felt their whole lives.
So I disagree with your assumption about their motivations...at least of the people I knew.

If there is any FEAR motivating anyone, it's basically fear of not getting what they want, whatever that may be. And that is HUMAN.
 

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The problem with science is that it has been proven wrong or it's conclusions modified in situations where clearer understanding and newer information becomes available...believing in scientists' conclusions takes a great amount of FAITH as well.
Do you understand what "science" is?

Science is a process. A means of getting from an unknown, a question, a what-if to the best possible answer based on gathering evidence and applying reason. The conclusion is always provisional - sometimes more evidence or better ways of interpreting the evidence may lead to a revision of the previous conclusion - and the subsequent conclusion is still provisional.

Do you understand what "faith" is?

Faith is a belief, a conviction which has no reasoned support, no evidence to back it up.

Basing one's life on religious tenets is total faith - untainted by evidence or reason - although we humans often apply confirmation bias and uncritical acceptance to convince ourselves that our fantasies are "real". Sometimes it makes people feel better in return for taking their time, their effort, their money and their self-worth.

Basing one's life on scientifically reached conclusions doesn't guarantee utter perfection - but it's good enough to provide us with the power that provides us with warmth in winter, industrial processes and the internet, has lead to improved food sources, given us medicines and efficient transport systems.

Have you any idea what the effect on child mortality would be if we withdrew any support that was science based and replaced it with care based upon superstitious belief? If you haven't - visit Learn the Facts - Cases of Childhood Deaths due to Parental Religious Objection to Necessary Medical Care.
 

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Free will is permitting one's (own) past to influence decisions today.
So how do you decide to permit? The same way as we decide anything else - without conscious thought.

We do what we will - we can't will what we will - Schopenhauer

Maturity often brings wisdom and wisdom scans past memories for the best decision.
Having wisdom makes one pain and conflict avoidant.
What do you mean by maturity?

Clearly not physical maturity - most of those who rebelled on the 6th were well past childhood.

Mental/emotional maturity? so subjective that it defies definition?

And I doubt your "often" - it was, effectively, the oldies that gave us Trump and Brexit - neither, by any normal usage of the word, the product of wisdom, nor pain and/or conflict avoidant.
 

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Well, also, please explain how these changes on the grand scale (as you put it) are BAD...?
The crusades - burning witches at the stake - St Bartholomew's Day
- The Massacre at Beziers etc. etc. etc.
None of the people I knew were trying to escape "retribution"...they actually felt like a Higher Power/Creator's love and acceptance and the sense of purpose healed the rejected, unloved parts of them they had felt their whole lives.
So I disagree with your assumption about their motivations...at least of the people I knew.
The last person to ask about motives is the person who is motivated. Freud stated that the only person he could not psychoanalyse was himself - we are incapable of being neutral about ourselves.

If there is any FEAR motivating anyone, it's basically fear of not getting what they want, whatever that may be. And that is HUMAN.
Including fear of not getting to stay alive, of not getting protection/preferential treatment, of not getting early release, of not getting released in to a society that will feed and clothe?
 

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Do you understand what "science" is?

Science is a process. A means of getting from an unknown, a question, a what-if to the best possible answer based on gathering evidence and applying reason. The conclusion is always provisional - sometimes more evidence or better ways of interpreting the evidence may lead to a revision of the previous conclusion - and the subsequent conclusion is still provisional.

Do you understand what "faith" is?

Faith is a belief, a conviction which has no reasoned support, no evidence to back it up.

Basing one's life on religious tenets is total faith - untainted by evidence or reason - although we humans often apply confirmation bias and uncritical acceptance to convince ourselves that our fantasies are "real". Sometimes it makes people feel better in return for taking their time, their effort, their money and their self-worth.

Basing one's life on scientifically reached conclusions doesn't guarantee utter perfection - but it's good enough to provide us with the power that provides us with warmth in winter, industrial processes and the internet, has lead to improved food sources, given us medicines and efficient transport systems.

Have you any idea what the effect on child mortality would be if we withdrew any support that was science based and replaced it with care based upon superstitious belief? If you haven't - visit Learn the Facts - Cases of Childhood Deaths due to Parental Religious Objection to Necessary Medical Care.
I don't appreciate being patronized and spoken down to like that...I won't respond to it...
 

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The crusades - burning witches at the stake - St Bartholomew's Day
- The Massacre at Beziers etc. etc. etc.

The last person to ask about motives is the person who is motivated. Freud stated that the only person he could not psychoanalyse was himself - we are incapable of being neutral about ourselves.


Including fear of not getting to stay alive, of not getting protection/preferential treatment, of not getting early release, of not getting released in to a society that will feed and clothe?
I am reading your responses as a way for you to keep arguing with me, instead of actually trying to listen to and absorb what I am saying. I don't want to keep repeating the same points, using more and more basic explanations. I don't mind you disagreeing with me at all, but at the same time, it's more important for me to be understood.

I will say, for the first thing you quoted, I meant how the changes for the prison parolees I knew were bad on a grand scale, not religion as a whole.
 

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Discussion Starter #71
AIUI - this is contrary to the evidence.

Freely available studies from the likes of Pew Research strongly indicate that societies which have lesser levels of religious belief have citizens who are healthier, wealthier and less likely to be the victims of crime than those where religious belief is common. (I do, however, accept that the correlation is not perfect - there are ostensibly very religious societies where theft is punished by amputation:)).

The UN also publishes data which suggests that less religious societies tend to have better public health care, better educational achievement, higher mean standards of living, fewer abortions etc. etc..
Well stated!

It is something 'else' that keeps these societies stable and successful.

What is it?
 

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Discussion Starter #72
I must say..

I got a lot of mileage out of this Thread.
More than I expected.

Anything, to keep me away from *(Politics, Big Tech, and Censorship).

Ugh.

*These are manipulated by some quite large Demons!
 

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Discussion Starter #73 (Edited)
I have noted, and noted well.

We cannot escape our Demons, those/these live fully among us.

They are evil and do not know it. So programmed are they.


Obvious, is this: as their opposite, 'their' negative, WE are that evil to them.

We are the light screens that they project their hateful and evil image onto.

It seems, that Nature corrupts sentient beings, fully mad and oblivious.

Anger, is the overall, and painted over, Earth tone these Demons present.

These Demons live a nightmare life and we suffer for it in tandem.

To them, our only purpose is to be the sounding board for their miserable condition.

Sadly, their numbers grow faster as do shadows when doth the Sun set.

Aye, mates.
 

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Discussion Starter #77
A follow up on @Personal's post.

........................................................................................................

Those half-asleep, walking forays can be dangerous when making that nightly bathroom dash.

Lurking in the tall carpet, are those Lego soldiers. They can badly inflict pain when they find and strike the heart of your plantar fasciitis.
The tiny little plastic devils can fall a sleepy giant.

Your children or grandchildren leave these booby traps, so purposely placed. So clever and diabolical, those rug-rat urchins be.
 

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Evil can be easily found when gazing in ones own mirror, just as easily as it can be found when looking elsewhere.
 

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I will say, for the first thing you quoted, I meant how the changes for the prison parolees I knew were bad on a grand scale, not religion as a whole.
Misunderstanding.

By "the grand scale" I meant events that impacted on large numbers of people as opposes to the "small scale" of the individual.
 

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I have noted, and noted well.

We cannot escape our Demons, those/these live fully among us.

They are evil and do not know it. So programmed are they.


Obvious, is this: as their opposite, 'their' negative, WE are that evil to them.

We are the light screens that they project their hateful and evil image onto.

It seems, that Nature corrupts sentient beings, fully mad and oblivious.

Anger, is the overall, and painted over, Earth tone these Demons present.

These Demons live a nightmare life and we suffer for it in tandem.

To them, our only purpose is to be the sounding board for their miserable condition.

Sadly, their numbers grow faster as do shadows when doth the Sun set.

Aye, mates.
Sometimes there are two things that are opposite and neither is good nor evil.

We all are ensnared by the life and experiences we have endured/experienced/enjoyed and by the lives of those around us.

If you knew me 10 years ago, you would not understand the person I am today. Largely because those years had a dramatic formative effect on me, and removed me from a bubble that I had been in my entire life without knowing. I knew of poverty, racism, sexual violence, child abuse, etc, but I had not experienced them, or even been in the life of someone that was living them. I was molested as a child, but that was nothing like the experiences I am talking about.

I do not see anyone here as evil, nor do I see their ideas as evil. They are just different, formed by differing perspectives and experiences.

Misery and evil grow as good and joy fail to intervene to bring hope. Where there is hope, there is life.
 
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