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The question should not be, "What does my wife want?" or "What would make my wife happy?" The question should be, "What is the best course of action?" or "What is best for the family?" When you don't have your own autonomy, it leads to all sorts of problems.
His own autonomy is what led to all sorts of problems.

I'm so very sure the rest of your post made just as much sense as what I quoted because you ALWAYS make so much sense, but this is for other couples, not this couple, not this member. I wish you knew what adult ADD is like because if you did, you wouldn't have posted this. I couldn't possibly have any idea if his is mild or severe or somewhere in between, but there are levels/degrees of the characteristics that would require this man to have as little autonomy as possible. For example, he said something about her complaining about the pizza he bought.

Example #1
Say the family ordinarily orders a particular pizza with specific toppings from one parlor and he bought the opposite from a different parlor.

Example #2
Say they don't like anchovies or onions but he ordered anchovies and onions.

Example #3
Say where they normally buy from adds a fair amount of cheese but where he went barely puts cheese on it.

I can't guess at what exactly went awry with the pizza purchase, but she said he got the wrong pizza because she knows he didn't notice the family's preferences. So of course she complained because they don't like that pizza, and the kids are only going to eat half of each slice, throwing the rest away. But he would naturally post it here as something else she derided him about.

The problem is he didn't notice. He forgot where they normally go. He wasn't able to make a correlation between needing to stop for pizza and what pizza to get. He simply got pizza as if there is no relationship between the two. One indication about his ADD is he doesn't make associations.

If you only wear one Chanel #5 perfume and very often over the past 5 years, you asked your husband to stop for some "Chanel #5" for you and then one day, you ask him simply "Pick me up some perfume while you're there in the mall, please" and then he brings something other than Chanel #5. How would you feel about that? What would you think if over the years you learned he couldn't be trusted to make that kind of association? You would conclude it's best not to trust him to be autonomous and would make sure you were very specific every time in the future. That's what his wife has learned on practically every level in every aspect of their marriage. She has to assert control to maintain order. She's gotten frustrated at times (more like very often) because to her, it just doesn't make sense to have to be so careful and specific in what she says every single time. It's hard for her because she doesn't understand his condition, and we don't know if he ever told her, for that matter. But it would seem like she's controlling or abusive. It's not really likely that things are done and said quite the way he expressed them here, such as in the case of her pizza complaint. It seems he enumerated and compiled all her complaints and has made them seem unfortunate and unnecessary and just her griping because that's the way he sees them - nothing but complaints and gripes. I know it's hard for him too and that's why he needs to find a medication that he can tolerate. Yet people here are telling him to ignore her and be autonomous and she doesn't respect him and she doesn't love him and she's being abusive.

I spent about an hour with my 30 year old nephew helping me do yard work 9 or 10 years ago. I wanted to rip my hair out (or his) after 20 minutes, but then I remembered his diagnosis from when he was a little boy. I kind of had a little bit of notion that it was something people grow out of but he showed me I that's not the way it goes. So I adjusted and figured out another way to communicate my instructions and some cases I had to oversee him to completion. Try to imagine his wife's daily life. I also have a friend who calls me ever so often crying because of her husband's condition. She's very familiar but it's still frustrating and sometimes very hurtful because he is unable to meet her needs (not referring to sexual needs) and she doesn't want to have to be in control all the time (the average woman doesn't), so she doesn't expect him to, but it's still hard. And she's a nurse.
 

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I have years of experience with ADHD.

I think if he wants to buy a certain kind of pizza, he should buy it. He should also take into account what other people want. By autonomy, I don't mean off on his own. I mean him having his own mind. Having ADHD doesn't mean a person is unaware of what other people like or want. If she doesn't like what he purchased, she should tell him without making personal attacks. If she makes a personal attack, he should tell her not to speak to him like that.

She seems to be lacking in grace. Which makes me wonder what her religion is and why she thinks that way. She should be gracious and kind, not having a fit because she doesn't like the pizza. So what if the kids don't like it. They aren't paying for it. What a bunch of picky people!
 

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I have years of experience with ADHD.

I think if he wants to buy a certain kind of pizza, he should buy it. He should also take into account what other people want. By autonomy, I don't mean off on his own. I mean him having his own mind. Having ADHD doesn't mean a person is unaware of what other people like or want. If she doesn't like what he purchased, she should tell him without making personal attacks. If she makes a personal attack, he should tell her not to speak to him like that.

She seems to be lacking in grace. Which makes me wonder what her religion is and why she thinks that way. She should be gracious and kind, not having a fit because she doesn't like the pizza. So what if the kids don't like it. They aren't paying for it. What a bunch of picky people!
That sounds nothing like years of experience with ADD because, depending on the level of severity of course, they can't make associations. That translates to being unaware of what other people want or like. What could the difference possibly be when the results are the same? And he said nothing about her having a fit. You sound like Marduk with that.

You didn't respond to my scenario. Would it not be frustrating for your husband to bring a perfume other than what you normally ask for? One that you really don't like? And after him doing that type of thing many times, would you not finally get the clue that you can't trust him to be autonomous?

I agree she lacks grace, but what does that have to do with religion. The most devout are seldom meek and mild. But I doubt the average parent would say "if the kids don't like it. They aren't paying for it" at many mealtimes. People don't capriciously allow their children to throw dinner in the trash just because they didn't pay for it. That made no sense either.

But whatever.
 

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That sounds nothing like years of experience with ADD because, depending on the level of severity of course, they can't make associations. That translates to being unaware of what other people want or like. What could the difference possibly be when the results are the same? And he said nothing about her having a fit. You sound like Marduk with that.
I assume you're not a mental health professional. This is not true of ADD or ADHD. Some people may have that problem, but not all people with ADD or ADHD. Whether or not it sounds like I have years of experience with this issue or not, I do. I'm not going to explain myself further.

lol Are you trying to insult me by saying I sound like Marduk?
 

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I assume you're not a mental health professional. This is not true of ADD or ADHD. Some people may have that problem, but not all people with ADD or ADHD. Whether or not it sounds like I have years of experience with this issue or not, I do. I'm not going to explain myself further.

lol Are you trying to insult me by saying I sound like Marduk?
Yes, I stated depending on the severity, so there's no point in disputing what I said just to repeat what I said?

Marduk stated something rather unnecessary, if not nonsensical. You took exception as well did I. Were you trying to insult him? I wasn't trying to insult him by disagreeing with what he said, so what could there be insulting to you to make a comparison? If you were trying to insult him, then I understand your question. But that doesn't make it apply to me.
 

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Discussion Starter #148
DIGB, first it's heartening to know that somebody else is facing a marriage dilemma similar to my own. I have literally been lurking on this board for seven or eight years and I have never encountered a situation from a poster that so nearly mirrors my own. I'm just about 15 years ahead of you on the timeline.

The frustrating thing with our situation is that it never gets bad enough to warrant pulling the plug on the entire relationship. There have been times I catch myself thinking that I wish my wife would have an affair so that I would have a "justified reason" for exiting completely. That, of course, never happens. If we as husbands put in the work and don't rock the boat, we get a steady diet of sex, decent family time and appear as a normal, well-adjusted couple/family to the outside world. All the while, you die inside from a thousand different cuts that you shoulder and internalize just because "I can take it."

In my case, I would pack my weekends with an endless list of house / family tasks simply as a defensive measure. If she had a honey-do on the list, I could cheerfully say that I'll get to it once I finished chores A, B and C. If I would let my guard down and sit and watch football for an hour, invariably I would take it in the shorts for being lazy, inconsiderate, whatever. It got to the point where it was just easier to keep myself busy with tasks as a means to hold criticism at bay.

Essentially, you become the pack mule, just trudging along. People around you - as illustrated by posters here - just don't recognize the burden you are carrying to keep the ship moving forward another day, another week, another year.

The religion issue here really is a red herring. You're not really doing anything to undercut the teaching of the faith. You're just not on the path to becoming a leader/elder of the church. No sin in that (pun intended.) Yes, she will use this as an emotional cudgel over you to significant effect. But, you know what, if it wasn't the religion, it would be something else. You could be making $1 million a year and she would complain that your spending too much time on work and not paying attention to her. You could be father of the year and around all the time and then you would get grief about not making enough money for the family. There is literally not a thing that you can do that will get you to the place you want.

So, now that I have described your situation, I now suggest what you can do to get her to change her ways: "Absolutely nothing." You will not change how she perceives things or anything of the fundamental precepts of her worldview. Never. Never. Never. The only thing you can change is how you respond to her behaviors. You have to get your mind to the place where you give yourself permission to value the love you show yourself over the conditional love she shows when you are a "good boy." Ultimately, that type of conditional love isn't worth much in the grand scheme of things. You know that it's bought and paid for by your blood, sweat and sacrifice. And it goes away in an instant once you stop playing the martyr.

But I know it's easy and safe to continue playing the quiet relationship martyr. After years, we get out of practice of knowing what we want for ourselves anyway. Why rent a sailboat and spend the weekend on the lake when you don't even know if you like sailing or not. It's a risk to lobby for something that takes you away from the unfulfilling succor of conditional love for something that may - or may not - wind up satisfying you after all. That uncertainty of not knowing what you want for yourself encourages you to stay in the rut of getting the reliable - yet somehow unsatisfactory - feeling that you get from focusing on fulfilling her needs.

Would be interested in hearing whether / how your wife reciprocates your efforts. Is your payoff the simple peace of stability? Can you point to "nice" things she does for you that she doesn't do for anyone else (not talking sex here) just small day-to-day stuff. In one argument mid-marriage, I made the point that I get her stuff from the fridge when we're watching TV. But the tables never turned the other way. I said it would nice if - every once in awhile - you would bring me a beer from the fridge. (let me tell you, that did not go over well) Do you get the sense that she has little interest in doing small things for you "just because."

Bottom line: you are not going to be able to change her. You have to change how you respond and the weight/importance you place on making her happy. You have to get comfortable with the notion that your needs are equally important to hers and that it really doesn't matter to you if she approves of you or not. Before I suggest how to do this, I'd like to hear about your process of conflict resolution. Does she yell? Do you get the silent treatment? Does one of you tend to apologize before the other to break a stalemate? Understanding how you fight and the impact it has on you will be the first step in suggesting techniques that could apply to your situation.

In the meantime, please mull on the following phrase and its implications on your relationship:"Who died and made her queen anyways? "
I'm like you - our marriage is not so bad that we can end them, like if there was an affair. My wife has not thrown anything in a while, slammed doors, or screamed at me in weeks/months, so surely I can handle it when it occasionally happens. Yes, when she is mad at me, she will give me the silent treatment, and I reciprocate. We normally try to reconcile quickly, because it is poisonous, but sometimes we don't talk to each other for days. Sometimes she will apologize for saying harsh things to me. Sometimes I will apologize for ordering the wrong pizza toppings. Sometimes, we will just agree to move forward like things are fine. But inwardly, we know things are not fine. Things are headed for another meltdown.

I'm like you - when I am not at my office working, I am with the kids, shopping, working on cars, caring for yard, paying bills, cleaning house, cooking food, working out, hanging with family, all of which are "wife approved" activities. I think I've changed everything about my life to keep her from criticizing me, for I am sensitive to it.

Well, when I gave her a massage the other day, she gave me one in return. She pours me a cup of coffee sometimes on the weekends, which is nice. Other than that, I really can't think of kind things that she has done over and above her usual tasks with kids and the house.

I'm sad to hear that your wife never changed her criticism of anything that you wanted to do just for yourself - like have a hobby for instance. I'm afraid I might be in the same boat. After I told someone about my situation, he told me how I shouldn't allow my wife's feelings control my feelings. For example, I ordered too many toppings one time, and my wife got mad because she had to pick off the mushrooms. She might have given me silent treatment for hours after that - I don't remember perfectly, but it was big problem apparently. My friend said what you are saying - let her get mad because I can't control that, but try not take get mad myself, let it drag me down into depression.
 

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Discussion Starter #149
Uh, what? That's BS. That's abuse. He has no power here. Positive attitude isn't going to stop it or change anything, unless it leads to a swift termination of this behaviour - which likely requires a swift termination of the marriage.

Let's check that list off, shall we?

Yelling or swearing
Name calling or insults; mocking
Threats and intimidation
Ignoring or excluding
Isolating
Humiliating
Denial of the abuse and blaming of the victim

He's only missing one checkmark, and I suspect that one has either happened or is about to: Threats and intimidation.

FFS she made him “confess” to her dad that he was horny. That’s downright toxic, belittling, manipulation, shaming, and divorce worthy on its own.
Yes, my wife has showed many of these traits (not swearing though). She threatened to leave me when she found out about porn years ago, so we might as well check that one off too.
 

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Discussion Starter #150
Yes, her behavior is abusive, but, as I explained, I think what she is doing is trying to help him by explaining what is wrong and trying to get him to fix the problems. That is a common approach that people use. It's dysfunctional, but it doesn't mean she doesn't love him. That is exactly how I used to approach everything. Point out what's wrong and how to fix it. Unfortunately that approach can be critical and demanding, even when that is not the thinking behind the behavior. I really think this is how she sees things and she needs a wake-up call, but that should not be done in an angry or accusatory manner.

@DoesItGetBetter?, just because you have relinquished your personal power doesn't mean you don't have any. It is time that you take back your personal power. That doesn't mean trying to control others, but by having self-control.
I agree that she loves me and is trying to point out my problems to fix me. I told her the other month that her getting mad for no good reason (maybe I wore the wrong clothing to church, maybe I wasn't moving quickly enough through the house, or maybe there was nothing that I did) was not helping anything between us and actually making the relationship worse. This seemed to hit her, and she mentioned later that it was actually correct. Can you please elaborate more about personal power, what it is, and what I can do to take it back?
 

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Discussion Starter #151
His own autonomy is what led to all sorts of problems.

I'm so very sure the rest of your post made just as much sense as what I quoted because you ALWAYS make so much sense, but this is for other couples, not this couple, not this member. I wish you knew what adult ADD is like because if you did, you wouldn't have posted this. I couldn't possibly have any idea if his is mild or severe or somewhere in between, but there are levels/degrees of the characteristics that would require this man to have as little autonomy as possible. For example, he said something about her complaining about the pizza he bought.

Example #1
Say the family ordinarily orders a particular pizza with specific toppings from one parlor and he bought the opposite from a different parlor.

Example #2
Say they don't like anchovies or onions but he ordered anchovies and onions.

Example #3
Say where they normally buy from adds a fair amount of cheese but where he went barely puts cheese on it.

I can't guess at what exactly went awry with the pizza purchase, but she said he got the wrong pizza because she knows he didn't notice the family's preferences. So of course she complained because they don't like that pizza, and the kids are only going to eat half of each slice, throwing the rest away. But he would naturally post it here as something else she derided him about.

The problem is he didn't notice. He forgot where they normally go. He wasn't able to make a correlation between needing to stop for pizza and what pizza to get. He simply got pizza as if there is no relationship between the two. One indication about his ADD is he doesn't make associations.

If you only wear one Chanel #5 perfume and very often over the past 5 years, you asked your husband to stop for some "Chanel #5" for you and then one day, you ask him simply "Pick me up some perfume while you're there in the mall, please" and then he brings something other than Chanel #5. How would you feel about that? What would you think if over the years you learned he couldn't be trusted to make that kind of association? You would conclude it's best not to trust him to be autonomous and would make sure you were very specific every time in the future. That's what his wife has learned on practically every level in every aspect of their marriage. She has to assert control to maintain order. She's gotten frustrated at times (more like very often) because to her, it just doesn't make sense to have to be so careful and specific in what she says every single time. It's hard for her because she doesn't understand his condition, and we don't know if he ever told her, for that matter. But it would seem like she's controlling or abusive. It's not really likely that things are done and said quite the way he expressed them here, such as in the case of her pizza complaint. It seems he enumerated and compiled all her complaints and has made them seem unfortunate and unnecessary and just her griping because that's the way he sees them - nothing but complaints and gripes. I know it's hard for him too and that's why he needs to find a medication that he can tolerate. Yet people here are telling him to ignore her and be autonomous and she doesn't respect him and she doesn't love him and she's being abusive.

I spent about an hour with my 30 year old nephew helping me do yard work 9 or 10 years ago. I wanted to rip my hair out (or his) after 20 minutes, but then I remembered his diagnosis from when he was a little boy. I kind of had a little bit of notion that it was something people grow out of but he showed me I that's not the way it goes. So I adjusted and figured out another way to communicate my instructions and some cases I had to oversee him to completion. Try to imagine his wife's daily life. I also have a friend who calls me ever so often crying because of her husband's condition. She's very familiar but it's still frustrating and sometimes very hurtful because he is unable to meet her needs (not referring to sexual needs) and she doesn't want to have to be in control all the time (the average woman doesn't), so she doesn't expect him to, but it's still hard. And she's a nurse.
I shared more about the pizza incident earlier today, but basically I bought mushrooms when she didn't want to have to pick them off. I think she got mad and didn't talk to me for hours, maybe a day or so - I don't remember exactly. I'm wondering if this is normal. Are other spouses going through this? It seems like my wife is making mountains out of molehills. Having said that, my changing theology really is a mountain, and part of me wishes I could just go back to the good religious guy to keep the peace.
 

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Discussion Starter #152
I have years of experience with ADHD.

I think if he wants to buy a certain kind of pizza, he should buy it. He should also take into account what other people want. By autonomy, I don't mean off on his own. I mean him having his own mind. Having ADHD doesn't mean a person is unaware of what other people like or want. If she doesn't like what he purchased, she should tell him without making personal attacks. If she makes a personal attack, he should tell her not to speak to him like that.

She seems to be lacking in grace. Which makes me wonder what her religion is and why she thinks that way. She should be gracious and kind, not having a fit because she doesn't like the pizza. So what if the kids don't like it. They aren't paying for it. What a bunch of picky people!
My wife's religion is the Baptist form of Christianity. Yes, I try to now buy a pepperoni pizza in the order to please the family.
 

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I shared more about the pizza incident earlier today, but basically I bought mushrooms when she didn't want to have to pick them off. I think she got mad and didn't talk to me for hours, maybe a day or so - I don't remember exactly. I'm wondering if this is normal. Are other spouses going through this? It seems like my wife is making mountains out of molehills. Having said that, my changing theology really is a mountain, and part of me wishes I could just go back to the good religious guy to keep the peace.
This reaction was completely childish.

It confounds me that she claims to expect you to "lead" the family, yet is so controlling that she goes over the top over stupid things like pizza toppings, and expects everything in the house (and relationship) to be done HER way.
 

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I did that too... guess what? She lost her respect for me at the end...
In Absentia, like me, you worked hard to please your wife, to try to show love to her and keep the peace, but she did not respect you for it. What did her lack of respect towards you look like, and how did your relationship end up? Did anything help improve your situation? I'm trying to see how similar we are and where we might end up down the road.
 

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In Absentia, like me, you worked hard to please your wife, to try to show love to her and keep the peace, but she did not respect you for it. What did her lack of respect towards you look like, and how did your relationship end up? Did anything help improve your situation? I'm trying to see how similar we are and where we might end up down the road.
well, it's a long story. I was part of the "it's never enough" club... I could never do anything right. If I was doing something, it was because I wanted sex. If I wasn't doing it - maybe relaxing for 1 hour in front of the TV, watching the Grand Prix - we couldn't go out because i was always watching the Grand Prix. Football? Too noisy. Taking the kids out so she could rest? Got back too early. If I replied or tried to stand up for myself, I would get the silent treatment. She never did anything for me. I remember her cooking for me once in 33 years. Never made me a coffee. Never really hugged me or said she loved me. Always walking on eggshells not to upset her. And if I complained, it was me me me... what about her? I was eating too much, I was drinking too much, I was driving too fast, my family was sh!t, she hated my father, she hated my brother... I bought her a car, she dented it several times, but I could not say anything...

Nothing helped improve the situation... we did marriage counselling, she hated the counsellor... at the end, we drifted apart and now, empty nested, we are finally separating... not after she told me that the last 10 years have been a lie... sorry, not a happy ending here...
 

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Baptist Minister here. I was raised fundamentalist, with 7 literal days and the scriptures “inerrant in the original manuscripts”. Very few Christians are literalists. None actually. We understand metaphor and nuance and that the psalms are to be read and understood differently than the epistles.

What fundamentalists disregard is context. Everything that Paul wrote ( whose words encompass 99% of fundamentalist rules) is a contextual application of Jesus words. Paul was teaching us how to apply Jesus words to our lives. Instead we do a cut and paste with Paul’s solutions and wonder why they make a mess in our lives and context.

Jesus promised us his Spirit, which would lead us into all truth, not the Scriptures as that final arbiter of truth. The Spirit interprets the Word. Interesting that your wife has disregarded that fundamental theological point.

Fundamentalists focus on do’s and fonts and forget that Jesus came that to remove our burdens, not to add to them. But you know this. You are still firmly in the Christian faith, but a faith of nuance, and joy, and possibility. A theology of the Spirit. Don’t live under a spirit of condemnation. You’ve done nothing wrong.

You’ve looked at porn. You and every other fundamentalist guy, and almost every other guy, ever. If it bothers you, confess it to God, not your wife. Intimacy is a two way street. She has made the systemic and sweeping decision to judge you and to diminish your valid beliefs, and to think less of you, and expects this judgment with encourage transparency? Her theological arrogance is that of every fundamentalist.

What if she is wrong and all that she has been taught is nothing but a security blanket with millions of theological holes? That is what it is. You have not lost your faith, you are simply growing up into Gods future for you. Welcome to your new future.

Come on in. The water is fine!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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well, it's a long story. I was part of the "it's never enough" club... I could never do anything right. If I was doing something, it was because I wanted sex. If I wasn't doing it - maybe relaxing for 1 hour in front of the TV, watching the Grand Prix - we couldn't go out because i was always watching the Grand Prix. Football? Too noisy. Taking the kids out so she could rest? Got back too early. If I replied or tried to stand up for myself, I would get the silent treatment. She never did anything for me. I remember her cooking for me once in 33 years. Never made me a coffee. Never really hugged me or said she loved me. Always walking on eggshells not to upset her. And if I complained, it was me me me... what about her? I was eating too much, I was drinking too much, I was driving too fast, my family was sh!t, she hated my father, she hated my brother... I bought her a car, she dented it several times, but I could not say anything...

Nothing helped improve the situation... we did marriage counselling, she hated the counsellor... at the end, we drifted apart and now, empty nested, we are finally separating... not after she told me that the last 10 years have been a lie... sorry, not a happy ending here...
Oh, I am sorry to hear that. Some differences appear be that my wife cooks and contributes to the family more than yours did. We have some similarities, though, like silent treatment, criticality, us walking on eggshells.
 

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Oh, I am sorry to hear that. Some differences appear be that my wife cooks and contributes to the family more than yours did. We have some similarities, though, like silent treatment, criticality, us walking on eggshells.
She worked part time, and she did stuff in the house and with the kids... we shared everything, but I was in charge of the cooking... I don't know. I guess she was unhappy in general, or maybe I disappointed her somehow. Maybe I didn't turn up the way she expected me to be once married and had children... I will never know!
 

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Baptist Minister here. I was raised fundamentalist, with 7 literal days and the scriptures “inerrant in the original manuscripts”. Very few Christians are literalists. None actually. We understand metaphor and nuance and that the psalms are to be read and understood differently than the epistles.

What fundamentalists disregard is context. Everything that Paul wrote ( whose words encompass 99% of fundamentalist rules) is a contextual application of Jesus words. Paul was teaching us how to apply Jesus words to our lives. Instead we do a cut and paste with Paul’s solutions and wonder why they make a mess in our lives and context.

Jesus promised us his Spirit, which would lead us into all truth, not the Scriptures as that final arbiter of truth. The Spirit interprets the Word. Interesting that your wife has disregarded that fundamental theological point.

Fundamentalists focus on do’s and fonts and forget that Jesus came that to remove our burdens, not to add to them. But you know this. You are still firmly in the Christian faith, but a faith of nuance, and joy, and possibility. A theology of the Spirit. Don’t live under a spirit of condemnation. You’ve done nothing wrong.

You’ve looked at porn. You and every other fundamentalist guy, and almost every other guy, ever. If it bothers you, confess it to God, not your wife. Intimacy is a two way street. She has made the systemic and sweeping decision to judge you and to diminish your valid beliefs, and to think less of you, and expects this judgment with encourage transparency? Her theological arrogance is that of every fundamentalist.

What if she is wrong and all that she has been taught is nothing but a security blanket with millions of theological holes? That is what it is. You have not lost your faith, you are simply growing up into Gods future for you. Welcome to your new future.

Come on in. The water is fine!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wow - thank you for your insights. It is funny that you mention it. My wife comes from a very strict, Fundamentalist background. We are talking women in dresses to the floor (sometimes a few head-coverings), men in suits only, men only leaders, appearance of perfection at all times, keep away from the damned, don't send your kids to public school, go to church, Sunday school, Sunday night service, Wednesday night service, church activities in addition to this, heavy on showing good works, etc...
 
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