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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This is a follow up from my post here as I didn't want to thread jack but I felt like expanding on my point on that thread and opening it up to discussion.


The truth is women like this pray on men who think of them like children, to stupid or naive to know any better. These are the men they marry and who they know will stay with them after they treat them like garbage. They know they just have to shed some tears and pretend that they were fooled and too stupid to know any better and there knight and shining armor will forgive them. It's a continuing dynamic that is usually present at the start of the relationship. Extramarital affairs are just the apex of that dynamic.

The truth is they know exactly what they are doing and enjoy every minute of it, they also know they can play innocent and gullible to get away with it. No one is "fooled" into infidelity unless they are mentally retarded. It feels good while they are doing it, damn the consequences or who they hurt. The only ones who are naive are the men who stay married to them, thinking the whole time that they were too innocent to know what they were doing.
So I wanted to expand on the the whole Knight in shining armor dynamic but to do so this time examining the one who is the knight, to explain why I think infidelity is actually a trap for a person who thinks this way. After reading a lot of these stories it's quite obvious that the the dynamic is set up in such a way that the spouse who is cheated on (if they are the KISA type) will naturally gravitate to the idea that the cheater is broken and it is in their nature and even their mission to fix them. This causes them to get stuck in a very unhealthy symbiotic relationship. Again in my last point I spoke about how some people will prey upon people who think this way. But it makes sense that thinking this way makes you easy prey.

Over and over you read about people (men especially) who feel their wives were tricked into cheating, and they just MUST help them overcome what they have done. In their minds their wives knew no better and therefor just couldn't help but be suckered into cheating. But my take is this is not a healthy marriage to being with even if there was no cheating. It's the apex of codependent thinking.

I am not my wife's savior or parent, I am her equal partner. Thinking this way creates a healthy dynamic as it empowers me to call her out when she acts "less then gracious" to me, which doesn't happen often, but does happen. It also forces me to be accountable as there is no covert deal here, we are partners so I have to step up when necessary. But also I don't expect her to be more to me then a partner, as none of my actions are this kind super sacrificial covert action that I can one day call back on when I feel my needs are not being met. I am not entitled to her moving heaven and earth to make up for all the times I did the same, only that she show me the natural respect that is necessary in a healthy relationship. Instead we are on equal footing like any healthy relationship. I often times see this "sacrificial" kind of love as a way to hedge bets and even manipulate the marriage dynamic. I did this for you, why can't you do this for me type of thing. Again not healthy.

Finally if she were to cheat on me or just abuse me in general I would feel no responsibility to fix or rescue her from the consequences of those actions. This is because I have never seen myself in the position of preventing her from the responsibility her actions. That is not what a partner does, I would offer that this isn't even what a parent does in the sense that I believe a good parent should try to minimize the consequences of a child's poor actions to allow them to be useful as a learning experience, but if possible prevent them from being too harsh as to cause lasting damage to a child who may not be prepared to take the full brunt of them. Obviously this protection decreases as the child gets older but so should the mistakes. I don't think this is what a "good" spouse does though.

By the way this is very different then say if she were to get sick. In such cases then I absolutely feel it is my responsibility to take care of her, but in most cases this is not something that was caused by reckless behavior. Though one could argue not taking care of ones health by say smoking or over eating could fall in this category. Maybe a topic for another thread.

Again, over all I think the KISA dynamic is a very unhealthy one, but I am not surprised that this is a common one where folks get cheated on and taken advantage of. I think it at the end of the day it stems from a very deep insecurity where the thinking is the only way someone will love me is if I take care of them in a sacrificial way. Often times you read about wives whose husbands behave like another child in the relationship. The wife becomes a kind of defacto mother to this man. I think this type of relationship is also a KISA dynamic. It's the same kind of thinking that is motivated by deep insecurity. The thinking being this is the only kind of man who will love me. I am unworthy of love unless I do almost everything for my spouse. More subtle is the idea that you just can't ask for what you want from your spouse so you must first go over and above what would be the normal amount of effort as to kind of game them into doing what you need.

It's not good, and I would encourage anyone who is in a relationship with such a dynamic to really think about what are your real motives for accepting it. The question being has this been a common scenario in your romantic life?
 

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Well this thinking assumes women are predatory and take advantage of poor kisa as soon as they can.
Some women are, some aren't. There are counterpoint women to the predatory types who are not aggressive.
 

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Interesting question... but I think your description mixes issues.

Unfortunately, some it involves predatory women, KISA men, weak men and just plain old beta men.

These three types of men can overlap and you could even have stronger men can fall into some of these categories.

And frankly some stupid men and/or inexperienced men, can also fall into these areas.

It is really hard to zero in on which type of man is in which situation and why.

I have been a KISA in my life. It was stupid. I was stupid. Stayed too long. But I was never weak just stupid.
 

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Interesting question... but I think your description mixes issues.

Unfortunately, some it involves predatory women, KISA men, weak men and just plain old beta men.

These three types of men can overlap and you could even stronger men can fall into some of these categories.

And frankly some stupid men and/or inexperienced men, can also fall into these areas.

It is really hard to zero in on which type of man is in which situation and why.

I have been a KISA in my life. It was stupid. I was stupid. Stayed too long. But I was never weak just stupid.
Trusting and stupid are not the same things. I think you were likely trusting and therefore didn't recognize the signs. We also cannot live in paranoia and be healthy either. Some things that we can look back on as obviously related to betrayal don't always mean that either. I think it's more complicated than that.
 

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Trusting and stupid are not the same things. I think you were likely trusting and therefore didn't recognize the signs. We also cannot live in paranoia and be healthy either. Some things that we can look back on as obviously related to betrayal don't always mean that either. I think it's more complicated than that.
You know I cannot disagree with your logic or sentiment here. But for me, I assure you that I was stupid.

Now it may be easy for me to say that with years more experience under my belt, so maybe you are right.

But someone as intelligent as I am, even younger, should have be able to see what was actually happening, and believe me, it was way worse than just cheating.

What is weird, is that I can spot BS a mile away now, just for the first part of my life, I could not...
 

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Most people are not taught how to have a healthy relationship. When we are young, most people seem to lack understanding of what is and is not normal or healthy. I look back on my youth and I'm shocked. I feel like I was an idiot too. But I think it is that I lacked the skills. Still I think I was an idiot. Maybe you're right. lol

You know I cannot disagree with your logic or sentiment here. But for me, I assure you that I was stupid.

Now it may be easy for me to say that with years more experience under my belt, so maybe you are right.

But someone as intelligent as I am, even younger, should have be able to see what was actually happening, and believe me, it was way worse than just cheating.

What is weird, is that I can spot BS a mile away now, just for the first part of my life, I could not...
 

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I married my wife so that i could take care of her at the time. It was kinda on a whim... i didn't put much thought into it. I married her after knowing her for just a few weeks.

I always figured i would have to learn how to make her happy, and i would give her good reasons to keep me happy.

She doesn't have to do much to keep me happy. All she has to do is be happy with her life and respect my influence in her life. That's all i really wanted. Be happy, and acknowledge me. And i knew i had a lot of work ahead of me to make that happen. I didn't care if she hated me, so long as i got those two things from her.

A few years into our marriage, she fell in love with me. And then i fell in love with her. And we have been madly and fiercely in love ever since. In fact, she is the only person i can say that i have been totally head over heals for.

Ill never knock a KISA's intentions. Unfortunately, however, most of the ones i have seen have no idea how to stand on their own feet. I could easily be placed in the KISA category. I just did things very differently than most would.

I wouldn't change anything.
 
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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Well this thinking assumes women are predatory and take advantage of poor kisa as soon as they can.
Some women are, some aren't. There are counterpoint women to the predatory types who are not aggressive.
I disagree, as I say even if they are not it's not a healthy dynamic as it is built on a kind of soft coercion. It's not an honest relationship. Even the sacrificial stuff is usually done out of a sense that it is necessary to get the person you are with to stay with you. I find the driving reason for it is fear or more so insecurity.

My post also doesn't assume women are NOT predatory. Both women and men can be predatory, and the KISA is very easy prey.

I also provide one example at least in my mind where I think women act as KISA. To me this is exemplified by a kind of motherly or total responsibility dynamic with a man who has chronic arrested development. The kind of man who can't keep a job and behaves like a adolescent teenager. Or who really takes no ownership in his marriage of family at all and basically is there to be serviced. I think many women in those situations also fall into the same kind of (I have to do this to get him to stay) kind of mentality.
 

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Without talking in the third person, with no one in charge of our Avatar, I am a KISA.
I love with all my heart.

I am not a Kiss-Ass.

The Typist I-

........................................................................

This is why we do not like The Typist I.
He is the quintessential KISA.
He has more empathy than forty-two Mother Teresas.

And he is a Kiss-Ass.
He sucks up to the feminine sex.

Uh, sorry, that sort of thing is forbidden to write on TAM.

I am ruled by logic, passionate logic is OK.

The Martians are ruled by love and hate, nothing in between.


SunCMars-
 

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IME some men look for women that they can save. It's often not so much that she's predatory, though some may be, but that some men like the ego boost of being a savior.

I know a few exactly like this. They go for women that are needy and are poor partner material so they don't feel inferior.

It definitely is an unhealthy dynamic.
 

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IME some men look for women that they can save. It's often not so much that she's predatory, though some may be, but that some men like the ego boost of being a savior.

I know a few exactly like this. They go for women that are needy and are poor partner material so they don't feel inferior.

It definitely is an unhealthy dynamic.
Eh, sometimes it can be a healthy dynamic. One that actually strengthens both parties involved.

But that seems to be incredibly rare....
 

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Interesting post. I think that in general there are certain psychological issues that people have and they seek out certain people and they form a dysfunctional, enabling, and sometimes toxic relationship.
What comes to my mind is.... low self esteem, yearning to be loved and never feeling loved and narcissists and KISA.... these are issues that put people at risk of forming unhealthy relationships.
And I agree that some people can seek these “weak” people out because they know they can easily manipulate them and get away with things.
 

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So whats the female equivalent of a KISA, a Molly Pitcher, Florence Nightingale, Mother Theresa?

Women seem to believe their love can transform a man in the same way men think their service and loyalty can transform a woman.

I've seen one woman who fell in love with a two men in prison, even to the extent that she thought they were innocent.

Tamat
 

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Well, this may get me some heat from the Feminist crowd but here goes....

Women tend to be externally validated, and they look towards us as men to lead the way. [Read the posts on any dating/relationship forum and see if you cannot tell the gender of the person asking for advice, just from the apparent thought processes of the person who wrote the post and not from e.g., any gender-identifying pronouns.] If we as men lose touch with them as their partner and another man gives them the attention, then they are prone to stepping out on us.

Just as we as men are suckers for feminine beauty and receptiveness. Even most of of us who are happily partnered will have to use some strong willpower to shut down another woman coming on aggressively on us and we are best just avoiding those situations.

[What I find interesting though, is how much time and energy women will invest in therapy investigating their cravings for external validation ect and why they are "that way", whereas most of us men don't do much introspection about our attraction towards the perfect feminine figure and how that tempts us whether our partner actually has it or not.]


So for the reasons above I don't think all cheaters are "broken" per se. And deep down I suspect deep down most of us don't believe this either--it is why infidelity hurts so much--we take it personally on level, as if it is something WE are lacking. I do think in the end it is a matter of boundaries failing on the part of the cheater--she GAVE herself permission to cheat [many people do stay faithful too.] But I can see how strong the temptation can be to cheat, and how the stimuli is different for women than it is for us men. I do think it is on us as men to set the boundaries and not lose touch with our partners. Does this make me a KISA. Or an Alpha Caveman. I'm not sure.
 

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You see the KISA types here and there. Its mainly people that cling to their hatred of AP and the false narrative that OM manipulated their wife into sex. Getting them to dislodge that manure from their line of thinking is the first step to recovery. Divorce is usually the second step.
 

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You know I cannot disagree with your logic or sentiment here. But for me, I assure you that I was stupid.

Now it may be easy for me to say that with years more experience under my belt, so maybe you are right.

But someone as intelligent as I am, even younger, should have be able to see what was actually happening, and believe me, it was way worse than just cheating.

What is weird, is that I can spot BS a mile away now, just for the first part of my life, I could not...
Well @BluesPower, this is my take--it may get me some heat from the Feminist crowd but here goes....

Women tend to be externally validated, and they look towards us as men to lead the way. [Read the posts on any dating/relationship forum and see if you cannot tell the gender of the person asking for advice, just from the apparent thought processes of the person who wrote the post and not from e.g., any gender-identifying pronouns.] If we as men lose touch with them as their partner and another man gives them the attention, then they are prone to stepping out on us.

Just as we as men are suckers for feminine beauty and receptiveness. Even most of of us who are happily partnered will have to use some strong willpower to shut down another woman coming on aggressively on us and we are best just avoiding those situations.

[What I find interesting though, is how much time and energy women will invest in therapy investigating their cravings for external validation ect and why they are "that way", whereas most of us men don't do much introspection about our attraction towards the perfect feminine figure and how that tempts us whether our partner actually has it or not.]


So for the reasons above I don't think all cheaters are "broken" per se. And deep down I suspect deep down most of us don't believe this either--it is why infidelity hurts so much--we take it personally on level, as if it is something WE are lacking. I do think in the end it is a matter of boundaries failing on the part of the cheater--she GAVE herself permission to cheat [many people do stay faithful too.] But I can see how strong the temptation can be to cheat, and how the stimuli is different for women than it is for us men. I do think it is on us as men to set the boundaries and not lose touch with our partners. Does this make me a KISA. Or an Alpha Caveman. I'm not sure.
 

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Well, this may get me some heat from the Feminist crowd but here goes....

Women tend to be externally validated, and they look towards us as men to lead the way. [Read the posts on any dating/relationship forum and see if you cannot tell the gender of the person asking for advice, just from the apparent thought processes of the person who wrote the post and not from e.g., any gender-identifying pronouns.] If we as men lose touch with them as their partner and another man gives them the attention, then they are prone to stepping out on us.

Just as we as men are suckers for feminine beauty and receptiveness. Even most of of us who are happily partnered will have to use some strong willpower to shut down another woman coming on aggressively on us and we are best just avoiding those situations.

[What I find interesting though, is how much time and energy women will invest in therapy investigating their cravings for external validation ect and why they are "that way", whereas most of us men don't do much introspection about our attraction towards the perfect feminine figure and how that tempts us whether our partner actually has it or not.]

So for the reasons above I don't think all cheaters are "broken" per se. And deep down I suspect deep down most of us don't believe this either--it is why infidelity hurts so much--we take it personally on level, as if it is something WE are lacking. I do think in the end it is a matter of boundaries failing on the part of the cheater--she GAVE herself permission to cheat [many people do stay faithful too.] But I can see how strong the temptation can be to cheat, and how the stimuli is different for women than it is for us men. I do think it is on us as men to set the boundaries and not lose touch with our partners. Does this make me a KISA. Or an Alpha Caveman. I'm not sure.
I think you make some great points, although, there is a great deal of generalization there.

But as a man, in a serious relationship, it is much easier to not cheat when I get hit on, because of this relationship. I do get hit on a lot, and I just kind of ignore it.

I am not saying that I am perfect, or beyond temptation, but for me, I don't consider the risk vs the reward in my case. Some of that may be that, I have done all of that and I am ready to be in a steady R.

When I was single or casual, well, that is a different story... I don't know if it is the same for woman or not...
 

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Discussion Starter #19
So whats the female equivalent of a KISA, a Molly Pitcher, Florence Nightingale, Mother Theresa?

Women seem to believe their love can transform a man in the same way men think their service and loyalty can transform a woman.

I've seen one woman who fell in love with a two men in prison, even to the extent that she thought they were innocent.

Tamat
I wrote about it twice in both my posts, and yes I think it kind of takes the form of thinking they can transform their man. But also some women basically become some men's defacto mothers. I think this could be a good example of KISA.
 

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There are some KISA (both male and female) out there who are truly altruistic to their own detriment.

But what I have observed in the cases I have seen is that it comes down to:

Control

Yes, I'd love to save her/him

But I also want to control them. It's the most prettily wrapped form of control, but it is still control.

It's kind of the adult twist on helicopter parenting lol.

"I just want what's best for them."
 
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