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Discussion Starter #1
I've been enjoying a few books here recently that get into the challenging topic about one spouse insisting that sex should just occur naturally. This tends to be a requirement from a spouse with the lower libido that rarely initiates. The spouse with a more active libido will struggle with this requirement and may question as to why his/her advances are rejected when things are done without all the extra effort (normally required for the other spouse to actually be receptive).

I can see both sides of this argument as my wife insists that things just be simple and natural. And she is right that when things just happen naturally it is indeed great. Yet keeping things natural can also be the cited as the source of almost all our problems. I have some opinions that I am working through and want to better develop on this topic, but first want to hear some different perspectives from those here at TAM.

How can keeping things simple and natural help solve sexual problems in a marriage?

How can keeping things simple and natural actually cause sexual problems in a marriage?

One example of things NOT being natural would be scheduling sex to occur regardless of being able to get in the mood or not. Keep in mind this is often the number one thing recommended by most therapists.

Regards,
Badsanta
 

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Keeping things natural only works if both have a strong libido and either both initiate or the less proactive person rarely says no. Otherwise, like everything else in a relationship, some work, negotiation, or planning is required. If a partner isn't willing to make that effort, then I'd say they're sexually incompatible, and need to decide if the relationship is still workable.
 

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I think one thing that would be of huge benefit is to "keep things simple and natural" before the marriage. No "audition sex" (which, is bait-and-switch). Keeping things "simple and natural", when it wasn't "simple and natural" prior to the marriage, will cause very bad problems. "audition sex" is unsustainable.
 

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I guess the concept of sex needing to be "natural" is completely foreign to me...WHAT does that mean...?
Do those spouses REALLY believe that sex should only happen when BOTH partners feel "in the mood" at the same time?? I doubt that...I think it's more likely that low-drive partners mainly use it as an excuse to refuse sex...which I believe is cruel and selfish.

To me, "natural" means my partner can touch and kiss me and I GET in the mood, because even if I don't feel turned on to want him in that moment, I always WANT him. THAT is natural!!
If that feeling isn't there, then like @FeministInPink said in another thread, it's a symptom of something else being wrong.

And as an FYI for you, OP -- I just started reading the book you mentioned on another thread, that I asked you about earlier - "Sexual Intelligence" - and it's VERY good so far!!! I'm finding it VERY enlightening about some of my own issues...UGH!! Lol!
 

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I think one thing that would be of huge benefit is to "keep things simple and natural" before the marriage. No "audition sex" (which, is bait-and-switch). Keeping things "simple and natural", when it wasn't "simple and natural" prior to the marriage, will cause very bad problems. "audition sex" is unsustainable.
What does "audition sex" mean...??
 

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It's the practice of pretending to be "in to" someone in order to get him/her to the altar. Then, once the marriage happens, the truth gets revealed, that he/she has married someone who is never going to meet their emotional needs through sex.
 

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As I recall, your wife enjoys spontaneous sex and quickies whereas you don't enjoy quickies because you like to plan and build the excitement because you enjoy the anticipation. You've seen how difficult this can be with kids home all of the time amid Covid.

It seems it is you who are putting up roadblocks to more sex because of your preferences. Stop making so much work out of sex and obsessing about it. You've turned it into a chore for your wife.
 

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It's the practice of pretending to be "in to" someone in order to get him/her to the altar. Then, once the marriage happens, the truth gets revealed, that he/she has married someone who is never going to meet their emotional needs through sex.
Yeah, that must be awful...
 

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It's the practice of pretending to be "in to" someone in order to get him/her to the altar. Then, once the marriage happens, the truth gets revealed, that he/she has married someone who is never going to meet their emotional needs through sex.
My ex did that. It took me far too long to figure it all out, but eventually I booed her off the stage and gave her bad reviews.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
As I recall, your wife enjoys spontaneous sex and quickies whereas you don't enjoy quickies because you like to plan and build the excitement because you enjoy the anticipation. You've seen how difficult this can be with kids home all of the time amid Covid.

It seems it is you who are putting up roadblocks to more sex because of your preferences. Stop making so much work out of sex and obsessing about it. You've turned it into a chore for your wife.
Fair enough. You make a pretty good point.

So this is an illustration of someone with a higher level of desire that does not like things to be kept too simple. I agree that anticipation is part of what I enjoy which might require scheduling and commitment. Then as you say, things might tend to turn into a chore for my wife.
 

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It's the practice of pretending to be "in to" someone in order to get him/her to the altar. Then, once the marriage happens, the truth gets revealed, that he/she has married someone who is never going to meet their emotional needs through sex.
Or performs sex acts or positions or kinks they actually detest but do it because they don’t want to be dumped prior to the alter. Basically acts like a porn star while dating and after the wedding, drops the facade.


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How can keeping things simple and natural help solve sexual problems in a marriage?

How can keeping things simple and natural actually cause sexual problems in a marriage?

One example of things NOT being natural would be scheduling sex to occur regardless of being able to get in the mood or not. Keep in mind this is often the number one thing recommended by most therapists.

Regards,
Badsanta
You will never “solve” this as it is a dichotomy to be managed. Most men’s natural state is “yes” to sex. Women usually have more emotional inertia to deal with and just don’t think about it as often due to lower testosterone so the natural state is “I’m actually processing 10 other things right now” and is coupled to a decision-tree once an overture for sex is proffered. “Kid status? Did I shave? I just changed the sheets? Am I on my period? Do I feel bloated? What else is on my to-do list? Did he take out the trash like I asked? I just took a shower? Do I need to take a shower? I didn’t decide what I’m making for dinner.”


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You will never “solve” this as it is a dichotomy to be managed. Most men’s natural state is “yes” to sex. Women usually have more emotional inertia to deal with and just don’t think about it as often due to lower testosterone so the natural state is “I’m actually processing 10 other things right now” and is coupled to a decision-tree once an overture for sex is proffered. “Kid status? Did I shave? I just changed the sheets? Am I on my period? Do I feel bloated? What else is on my to-do list? Did he take out the trash like I asked? I just took a shower? Do I need to take a shower? I didn’t decide what I’m making for dinner.”


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Lolol!!! Ok, I don't know if you meant this to be somewhat funny, but your list of "decision-tree" questions made me laugh out loud over here!!! And that's because even though I have a HIGH drive, I actually DO go through all those questions (and more! Lol!) when sex becomes a possiblity...and I find it really funny to see them listed in a post like this...!!! Lol!
 

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Discussion Starter #14
How can keeping things simple and natural help solve sexual problems in a marriage?

I am going to try and appreciate both points of view and start by sharing my thoughts on how just keeping things simple and natural can actually solve problems:
  • There is this notion that if you try too hard to make something fun, at some point having fun will become impossible. Kind of like insisting that it is really important for someone to try to enjoy a birthday present before they have a chance to even open it. So trying too hard can actually ruin the moment.
  • Sexuality seems to thrive on the notion that people have to embrace their imperfections and be emotionally strong enough to allow things to fail from time to time. This is natural. Perhaps some people might insist on trying to avoid failure in ways that are just unnatural. For example one spouse may struggle to climax and then proceeds to try every trick in the book to make it happen for themselves or the other to no avail.
  • Sometimes there are unnatural ways to make sex too easily climatic like using a vibrator. This may make one person feel as though the other did not want to invest the time and emotionally energy needed to make the same thing happen naturally. As in hurry up and orgasm so that you can be done and I get my turn.
  • If one person struggles with performance anxiety of low self esteem, the notion that something is unnatural may serve to validate one person's fears of not being good enough.

    So those are my thoughts on how keeping things natural can actually help. I'll gather my thoughts on how keeping things natural can actually cause problems and share those soon. This has been a process that has been helpful to me.

    Regards,
    Badsanta
 

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I'm not 100% sure what "natural sex" is supposed to mean but I am kind of picturing you both spontaneously looking each other in the eyes with the same thought on your minds. Then you embrace each other leading to sex.

To me it sounds like an idealized view of sex. It's like in the movies. For many or most it might be truly considered the ideal. But life usually doesn't happen that way. Taken to extreme, it can not just be about having sex itself but also about each act within the sex. Each element of it just organically arises. Again...nice vision.

I am thinking that the ideal of "natural sex" is something like the idealized version of sex where you both have orgasms at the same time.

Chasing an idealized version of sexual relationship for a couple is likely to end up in constant frustration. And in most of the animal kingdom it doesn't really work like that so i'm not sure now "natural" it really is.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I'm not 100% sure what "natural sex" is supposed to mean but I am kind of picturing you both spontaneously looking each other in the eyes with the same thought on your minds. Then you embrace each other leading to sex.
To describe natural in terms of what my wife would desire would be the like the notion of asking a magician to perform tricks without the use of any props what so ever.

(wait a minute, let me see, is that coconut oil on your hand?)
 

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It's the practice of pretending to be "in to" someone in order to get him/her to the altar. Then, once the marriage happens, the truth gets revealed, that he/she has married someone who is never going to meet their emotional needs through sex.
Yeah, that must be awful...
I know from experience that it IS awful. My XH did this to me.

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