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1. The dating market is nothing more than another market and can be looked at in terms of economic analysis (for those of you who have studied economics).

2. MGTOW is a macro market response to general market conditions. The demand and supply curves have shifted dramatically for the average guy (generally rated as 6 or less). There is greater supply and LESS DEMAND. Women also know there is a never-ending supply of thirsty men. These curves were kept in balance by the rule of monogamy when women had fewer options and relied upon men earlier in life. Some called it the Patriarchy. In other words, the market was REGULATED where men/women of similar types 6s, 5s, 7s matched up. the best time for average guys was 1900 - 1949 where men pretty much had a guaranteed match.

3. What we are seeing today is a DEREGULATED market. Women rule in this environment. This is where female nature is unleashed. We haven't seen this in a long long time. the stuff the bible warned about and most laughed it off as being incidents from a long-ago time. Hey, they warned us. AVG WOMEN wield substantial power in this environment. AVG women have the ability to go upwards and attain men of higher standing (7s,8s,9s). These are the guys who spread their seed far and wide as they are designed to do Hence your 20%ers. Avg men can try all they want but they have little power in this market. There is no demand for them. Why? They are deemed not good looking enough.
Success isn't achieved by staring at the odds and losing one's nerve before putting in their chips. When I met my fiancee I was like the 100th person to hit on her that day, even my approach, using a note, was the 3rd she had received on the same day.

Yes, there's competition especially for the cream of the crop, that's always how it is. Not to mention she has her pick of anyone her age and incredibly successful young men too, instead she picked me, an average guy not even 6ft tall and not nearly as ambitious financially as in the past.

And if there's no demand, create demand. Know how to market yourself.

4. LOOKS MATTER: If you are a man and your face is a certain way deemed average or unappealing by the voting females, you are fked. These guys can improve, get muscles, go alpha, but they can't change their face. Nor can a guy 5'5" put on more inches. It is so fking harsh until I stumbled upon this. This is Darwinism in action. We often hear the question "Does size matter"? The real question is "Does Face Matter?" It matters a lot. Women will never admit to it. they speak of personality and being funny and the rest of it. But they act in a different way.
Sure does, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder! So in the end it doesn't even matter for most people!

5. we are retreating to our distant past. DNA studies show that 80% of our female ancestors reproduced while only 40% of males reproduced. Again. top guys got the with the females. this is how nature works. This is what MGTOW has recognized.

6. Try being a guy that is a 5 and getting with some girl on Tinder. Can't do it. No-fault of the guy. He just looks a certain way.

Conclusion: The avg man is no match in terms of power as compared to the avg woman in the dating game. She wields all the power. Especially on OLD. Avg Men are simply reacting to market conditions just as drivers would react to gasoline rising to $15.00 per gallon. Drivers will give up their cars for bicycles. The Avg guys power remains and will always be the power of commitment in declining to serve these women in marriage with his wallet later in life.

It is harsh. I know. But this is reality and it's going to get much worse.
People need to get off OLD. I would have had less than zero chance with my fiancee if online. Its just a simple fact. They need to get out there
 

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I did meet a MGTOW dude that works in underwriting at my company. We went out together at lunch. Just about 7-8 guys eating pizza. I told him of my pending divorce and he confided in me that he was MGTOW. He asked if I heard of it. He was surprised that I did. I took note that he was socially awkward and couldn’t hold a conversation. He’s 50 and lives alone and was never married/no kids. I think he is more in monk mode and it was clear to me he doesn’t get out much. It definitely stunted his emotional growth and he was a very boring guy. But that’s just one I’ve met.
 

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You're looking at this with your old eyes and old mindset. I used to be in your camp that these guys are whiners and ought to man up the way we did. Then I took a closer look and this is what I discovered.

1. The dating market is nothing more than another market and can be looked at in terms of economic analysis (for those of you who have studied economics).

2. MGTOW is a macro market response to general market conditions. The demand and supply curves have shifted dramatically for the average guy (generally rated as 6 or less). There is greater supply and LESS DEMAND. Women also know there is a never-ending supply of thirsty men. These curves were kept in balance by the rule of monogamy when women had fewer options and relied upon men earlier in life. Some called it the Patriarchy. In other words, the market was REGULATED where men/women of similar types 6s, 5s, 7s matched up. the best time for average guys was 1900 - 1949 where men pretty much had a guaranteed match.

3. What we are seeing today is a DEREGULATED market. Women rule in this environment. This is where female nature is unleashed. We haven't seen this in a long long time. the stuff the bible warned about and most laughed it off as being incidents from a long-ago time. Hey, they warned us. AVG WOMEN wield substantial power in this environment. AVG women have the ability to go upwards and attain men of higher standing (7s,8s,9s). These are the guys who spread their seed far and wide as they are designed to do Hence your 20%ers. Avg men can try all they want but they have little power in this market. There is no demand for them. Why? They are deemed not good looking enough.

4. LOOKS MATTER: If you are a man and your face is a certain way deemed average or unappealing by the voting females, you are fked. These guys can improve, get muscles, go alpha, but they can't change their face. Nor can a guy 5'5" put on more inches. It is so fking harsh until I stumbled upon this. This is Darwinism in action. We often hear the question "Does size matter"? The real question is "Does Face Matter?" It matters a lot. Women will never admit to it. they speak of personality and being funny and the rest of it. But they act in a different way.

5. we are retreating to our distant past. DNA studies show that 80% of our female ancestors reproduced while only 40% of males reproduced. Again. top guys got the with the females. this is how nature works. This is what MGTOW has recognized.

6. Try being a guy that is a 5 and getting with some girl on Tinder. Can't do it. No-fault of the guy. He just looks a certain way.

Conclusion: The avg man is no match in terms of power as compared to the avg woman in the dating game. She wields all the power. Especially on OLD. Avg Men are simply reacting to market conditions just as drivers would react to gasoline rising to $15.00 per gallon. Drivers will give up their cars for bicycles. The Avg guys power remains and will always be the power of commitment in declining to serve these women in marriage with his wallet later in life.

It is harsh. I know. But this is reality and it's going to get much worse.
OK. As I wrote, none of my male descendents or friends are experiencing ANY of what you describe. It isnt my old eyes, theirs are 18 to 75 years old. Heck a guy from church been dating a very nice woman widowed 2 years ago n they just married. In their mid 70s. My male grandkids have all the girls they have time for. None are the prototype "alpha". They just as average as this grandpa.
 

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For anyone not in the know, that means "men going their own way". Probably some other terms used. This seems to be promoted on youtube, and it is interesting to me just because that is what I have done. I am curious if you guys 'actually' know someone doing this? As I follow some of this stuff, the comments would indicate a bunch of betas feeding into this while still begging for phone numbers.

I can 100% appreciate the reasons behind this stuff such as how men as father figures is now totally disregarded in the legal system, and they are just financial resources. However, I suspect many are not MGTOW by choice. I have yet to even meet another one!

I will admit though, the ones online all seem the same.....they have been terribly burned and no longer willing even test the water.

I think the most entertaining part of this for me is all this "training" I see. How to date, how to talk to a girl, how to approach, what to say, how to hold your arms, your feet, your etc, etc, the list just keeps going! The best is how to learn to be an "alpha male".......Complete with the Brad starter kit! News flash, some people cannot be changed.
It's incel types looking for a fancy excuse for why they are too fearful and/or inadequate to be social enough to do okay with women or why they don't want a woman their own attractiveness level (well, then I'd rather do without). Another board I used to frequent, this all came up a lot. Their entitlement to a good looking girl makes them bitter, but they don't have what it takes and are steadfastly unwilling to make any changes to accomplish success. So they look for supporting validation of this type. I don't know any in real life, but there are LOADS of them staying on the internet in their rooms and rarely venturing out.

One thing I like about this board, there are few if any incels. They are very infuriating because of their stubbornness and attention seeking, but you're wasting your breath.
 

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I think there is some correlation between the incel crowd and the MGTOW movement. I've heard about and run into a few guys that are just absolute lost causes. Guys that have zero clue on how to not just get a woman, but how to live their life, how to be a MAN. These guys aren't going to have much luck so they might as well go MGTOW. They probably don't have what it takes to do anything else.

With that said, I've also known plenty of women that are the stereotypical woman the MGTOW people talk about. I have a female friend now that kicked her BF out for having a drinking problem. She forced him to go to rehab for her. What does she do? Get drunk every single weekend, all weekend, and sometimes during the week too. If she drinks, it's just for fun, if dude wants to drink at home after work, he is an alcoholic. Now that he is gone, she thinks most men are beneath her, ignores any guy that tries to hit on her, and she's waiting for Mr Perfect rich guy that's in good shape and younger than her. Dude has to be packing down below too.

My point is, I think everyone is screwed up these days. The older you are when you try dating, the pickings become slimmer and slimmer. I really don't blame anyone going MGTOW. I came close to doing the same myself, without the actual title. If it wasn't for my GF now, I would probably just sleep around and treat ladies like sexual commodities. Maybe that makes me a bad person but, to quote Omar from The Wire, "The game is the game."
 

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It seems to me that a certain segment of the male population just doesn't know how to interact with women. I don't claim to understand OLD as I don't do it, but I'm told it's a **** show. For every guy who claims that all the women want a small number of men I could introduce you to women who will tell you that most of the men they meet on OLD are either looking for sex or shopping for the hottest thing they can find.

That's the problem with OLD....it's a shopping experience. If 80% of women were fighting over 20% of men not that many women would be married or partnered, and I'm one of the only women in my circle who isn't married.

Granted we're all middle aged but their kids are all dating too. The 80/20 claim doesn't pass a sniff test.

OLD aside, what does it mean to go one's own way? Does it mean that you're not directly pursuing outlets to find a partner? Because I think that's a good idea....do the things you enjoy and maybe you'll run into someone you like who also enjoys those things. That's how I met my bf in the bike club. Any independent person generally isn't desperate and that's a good partner quality.

Any guy that has a bad experience with a woman when they're 20 and swears them off isn't good partner material.

Would these guys say no to a woman they just happened to meet and click with?
 

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Ha, Incel, I had to look that up!!! Never heard of it but it sounds like a few examples in this thread are more on that line. I thought mgtow was more like getting burned and choosing to stay out of the fire? IDK. Like I have said, I guess I am on the mgtow spectrum but only because I suffer from what I think is post relation PTSD. I like meeting up and hanging out, but I literally shake when thinking about all the stress that comes with a real relationship. There is no way I could ever do it without constant anxiety of when the end is coming.

I do agree with above about men being screwed up today. I obviously am but my man traits are still intact and well taught. I will never understand the skinny jean type that can't put gas in a lawn mower! LITERALLY, my ex's ex could not do that!!! That was literally a flag for me that I should have measured because she dated that! But I did learn within the past 5yrs that my extensive skill set means precisely **** to women. Nada. All up in their feelings.
 

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OK. As I wrote, none of my male descendents or friends are experiencing ANY of what you describe. It isnt my old eyes, theirs are 18 to 75 years old. Heck a guy from church been dating a very nice woman widowed 2 years ago n they just married. In their mid 70s.

You are drawing from a very small sample. Your two friends from church are from a different era playing by the traditional rules. The old relic of marriage works a lot better under this framework. Traditional rules, dating, courting - whatever we call it - benefits the avg man because the market was regulated.

Sometimes I think we "old-timers" don't understand what the birth of social media has done to the dating market for the youngin's these days. From what I see, I would never recommend a young man marry in today's market.
Social media has provided women with vast opportunities due to the gradual deregulation of the market beginning in the 1980s. You also said the above so you are aware that dating has changed from what you experienced in your twenties. You're a baby boomer when the traditional dating rules were still intact but were being challenged. 1960s - 70s.

I should have said traditional eyes. That's what I meant. My apologies.
 

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I do agree with the 80/20 thing, however I would add that at today's level of competition if a guy wants to be in that top 20% he probably can be. The real issue is that you have 100% of women who think they deserve that top 20% of men. You have women who literally weigh as much as The Rock and think they deserve a guy who makes six figures.

My pov is probably a little different in that I got married in my 40s, so most of my dating life was happily single. I'm sure dating is a very different animal if you married your high school gf and divorced in your 40s.
 

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I do agree with the 80/20 thing, however I would add that at today's level of competition if a guy wants to be in that top 20% he probably can be. The real issue is that you have 100% of women who think they deserve that top 20% of men. You have women who literally weigh as much as The Rock and think they deserve a guy who makes six figures.

My pov is probably a little different in that I got married in my 40s, so most of my dating life was happily single. I'm sure dating is a very different animal if you married your high school gf and divorced in your 40s.
The 80/20 rule is the top 80% of women are going for the top 20% of men. So, not quite all women going for the top 20% of men but most are, and that includes the huge girls.

The problem with men is they have very little value in the dating market aside from their wallets. Any average girl that's not huge can post a filtered selfie on FB or shake her butt on tiktok and have a legion of male simps coming out of the woodwork to tell her how hot she is. If you're a really good looking guy, you can get the same sort of treatment but average? Not happening. I'm average looking as they come and I've always had to rely on being smarter or a better talker than other men if I wanna get a date. If some poor sap is average across the board....good luck, buddy.
 

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The 80/20 rule is the top 80% of women are going for the top 20% of men. So, not quite all women going for the top 20% of men but most are, and that includes the huge girls.

The problem with men is they have very little value in the dating market aside from their wallets. Any average girl that's not huge can post a filtered selfie on FB or shake her butt on tiktok and have a legion of male simps coming out of the woodwork to tell her how hot she is. If you're a really good looking guy, you can get the same sort of treatment but average? Not happening. I'm average looking as they come and I've always had to rely on being smarter or a better talker than other men if I wanna get a date. If some poor sap is average across the board....good luck, buddy.
You're right. Women are, men have to become. I think that's the phrase.

I also think if you are an older guy, we probably don't realize how having to date without today's technology gave us a great skill set.

I consider myself average. Granted I go to the gym, but anyone can do that. I guess that's why I have a hard time with the incel thing because when I was 20, skinny and broke I was at the bottom of the rung too but I didn't just stay there.

Now the not wanting to get married and deal with the family court system, totally onboard with that. That's one thing they have right.
 

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If guys don't want to deal with the family court system, the answer is to not have kids. It isn't rocket science. Man up and take responsibility for your reproductive ability - in other words, get a vasectomy. See, problem solved.
 

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You're looking at this with your old eyes and old mindset. I used to be in your camp that these guys are whiners and ought to man up the way we did. Then I took a closer look and this is what I discovered.

1. The dating market is nothing more than another market and can be looked at in terms of economic analysis (for those of you who have studied economics).

2. MGTOW is a macro market response to general market conditions. The demand and supply curves have shifted dramatically for the average guy (generally rated as 6 or less). There is greater supply and LESS DEMAND. Women also know there is a never-ending supply of thirsty men. These curves were kept in balance by the rule of monogamy when women had fewer options and relied upon men earlier in life. Some called it the Patriarchy. In other words, the market was REGULATED where men/women of similar types 6s, 5s, 7s matched up. the best time for average guys was 1900 - 1949 where men pretty much had a guaranteed match.

3. What we are seeing today is a DEREGULATED market. Women rule in this environment. This is where female nature is unleashed. We haven't seen this in a long long time. the stuff the bible warned about and most laughed it off as being incidents from a long-ago time. Hey, they warned us. AVG WOMEN wield substantial power in this environment. AVG women have the ability to go upwards and attain men of higher standing (7s,8s,9s). These are the guys who spread their seed far and wide as they are designed to do Hence your 20%ers. Avg men can try all they want but they have little power in this market. There is no demand for them. Why? They are deemed not good looking enough.

4. LOOKS MATTER: If you are a man and your face is a certain way deemed average or unappealing by the voting females, you are fked. These guys can improve, get muscles, go alpha, but they can't change their face. Nor can a guy 5'5" put on more inches. It is so fking harsh until I stumbled upon this. This is Darwinism in action. We often hear the question "Does size matter"? The real question is "Does Face Matter?" It matters a lot. Women will never admit to it. they speak of personality and being funny and the rest of it. But they act in a different way.

5. we are retreating to our distant past. DNA studies show that 80% of our female ancestors reproduced while only 40% of males reproduced. Again. top guys got the with the females. this is how nature works. This is what MGTOW has recognized.

6. Try being a guy that is a 5 and getting with some girl on Tinder. Can't do it. No-fault of the guy. He just looks a certain way.

Conclusion: The avg man is no match in terms of power as compared to the avg woman in the dating game. She wields all the power. Especially on OLD. Avg Men are simply reacting to market conditions just as drivers would react to gasoline rising to $15.00 per gallon. Drivers will give up their cars for bicycles. The Avg guys power remains and will always be the power of commitment in declining to serve these women in marriage with his wallet later in life.

It is harsh. I know. But this is reality and it's going to get much worse.
Women are judged on their looks just as much if not more.
 

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My advise for people on OLD is firstly find a good quality site, so not tinder or one that relies completely on looks and is basically just for casual hook ups. Secondly be persistent and patient. Don't got on for three months and say it doesn't work. I know a lady who met her now lovely husband after 7 years. I met my husband after 2 years of being on a few sites.
Thirdly dont blame OLD if you don't find anyone. Fourthly don't blame the opposite sex if you don't meet anyone, it's very unappealing and won't help men/women to be attracted to you.
 

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Women are judged on their looks just as much if not more.
Both genders at least initially judge on looks. We all have to play the hand we were dealt, no point sitting in a corner and feeling bad cuz the "10s" aren't beating down the door. I am 5'6', and average looking, nothing could have ever make me 6'2" and handsome. Never knew why wife was attracted, but very glad she was.
 

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Both genders at least initially judge on looks. We all have to play the hand we were dealt, no point sitting in a corner and feeling bad cuz the "10s" aren't beating down the door. I am 5'6', and average looking, nothing could have ever make me 6'2" and handsome. Never knew why wife was attracted, but very glad she was.
I think for women it's just as much about character and personality as looks. Men seem to go more for looks only sadly.
 

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I think for women it's just as much about character and personality as looks. Men seem to go more for looks only sadly.
Most of us men are visual creatures. Not to say women aren't ( otherwise male strippers wouldn't have a job). My wife comments often about how I am easily visually excited, laughs at my response to her, says it's "cute". She says emotional connection and "closeness" are more important to women. They must be more important to her lol.

Sorry, end T/J:
 

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Most of us men are visual creatures. Not to say women aren't ( otherwise male strippers wouldn't have a job). My wife comments often about how I am easily visually excited, laughs at my response to her, says it's "cute". She says emotional connection and "closeness" are more important to women. They must be more important to her lol.

Sorry, end T/J:
My husband didn't even have a photo on his OLD for a few days.This was 17 years ago. I knew he was special before that:)
 

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If guys don't want to deal with the family court system, the answer is to not have kids. It isn't rocket science. Man up and take responsibility for your reproductive ability - in other words, get a vasectomy. See, problem solved.
Family court also deals with division of assets which is the bigger issue.
 

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I felt like the division of assets was pretty fair and straightforward, but we both worked and didn't go after 401ks etc. It's having to pay my cheating ex (who made about 50% more than me when we divorced, and probably still does) 20% of my takehome pay until my kid is 18 that I'll never forgive.
 
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