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I always think about you Brits facing the Blitz alone anytime hear complaints about how tough life is. What an example of what the human spirit can achieve!
Agreed, people went through so much and didn't complain either.
 

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No it doesn't. But when those girls want to settle down and there are not enough of the top 20% to go around you have the counterweight. These guys were typically pushovers and still are. But things are changing as the marriage rates indicate. their point is that even though they got shafted in the dating game, they don't want to get shafted in the marriage game where they are compelled by the iron fist of the divorce machine to redistribute their assets in a divorce. it's a rational response to their value which is primarily as a wallet. Often to a woman who comes in with nothing but her mini skirt and high heels. W/holding of commitment avoids the high risk of the marriage game. They don't want to make their resources available. We are talking about the hordes of average guys who have been told that they are not good enough.
Well if they don't want to be shafted in a bad divorce they can sign a prenup. If their lady friend doesn't want to they can next her.

As for the "80%" and "20%", I placed ""s for a reason lol. I don't believe in that ratio. Life isn't so simple :LOL:
Nor are women all one-dimensional gold diggers lol

I agree. They face one let down in life and can't even understand that it was only one women out of billions. They can't get over one hurtful experience without throwing in the towel. Where is people's resilience, their fortitude, their get up and go?
Sad really.
All the young men I know are actually married, going to get married or want to be married which is encouraging.
I am thankful that we didn't let former marriage break up's stop us, we have a happy marriage to show for it.
I don't even care about whether folks want to get married or not, but I definitely think folks have no need to pull a Marvin on the world:

 

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[QUOTE="RandomDude, post: 20341093, member: 18952"

As for the "80%" and "20%", I placed ""s for a reason lol. I don't believe in that ratio. Life isn't so simple :LOL:
Nor are women all one-dimensional gold diggers lol

[/QUOTE]
Life may not be that simple, but Tinder is. The 80/20 rule thing really applies to OLD, where it is based on several studies of different apps on men and women's swiping habits. That 80% of the women are competing for 20% of the men by swipes/likes.

Sometimes I think we "old-timers" don't understand what the birth of social media has done to the dating market for the youngin's these days. From what I see, I would never recommend a young man marry in today's market.
 

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[QUOTE="RandomDude, post: 20341093, member: 18952"

As for the "80%" and "20%", I placed ""s for a reason lol. I don't believe in that ratio. Life isn't so simple :LOL:
Nor are women all one-dimensional gold diggers lol
Life may not be that simple, but Tinder is. The 80/20 rule thing really applies to OLD, where it is based on several studies of different apps on men and women's swiping habits. That 80% of the women are competing for 20% of the men by swipes/likes.

Sometimes I think we "old-timers" don't understand what the birth of social media has done to the dating market for the youngin's these days. From what I see, I would never recommend a young man marry in today's market.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe people are "lookin for love in all the wrong places". All of my kids are married. One used OLD to meet current wife. My grandkids actively dating. None complaining the deck stacked against them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 · (Edited)
I do realize I threw this question on a "marriage site"...but thought you guys might know a few. As I said, there are varying degrees of this "movement" if we want to call it that. I think some folks are hyper focused on the "relationship side" of the talk to realize there are other factors. Some that are written into law. There are real facts and statistics regarding cheating and divorce.

I can only speak for myself in which I don't hate women at all, but I'd compare them to a Leopard. They are pretty, really nice fur, can be sweet, but when those claws come out, you better have an exit strategy!!! It's not just her, it's her, the government, and society that tends to default blame towards the man.

Regarding OLD, I can again only speak for my area but I suspect the same in other parts. There are VERY few attractive women on there! I don't want to get into shaming anyone but.....I think these few women are simply flooded with messages and I learned quickly it was pointless. Of the few I chatted with, they made it clear they were overwhelmed and I needed to make a decision on the spot. I did a little digging online to try to understand the statistics but either I am only a 5 online, or other dudes are flat out lying. They were trying to see "how many dates can I get"....lmao. If there is non quality factor in there, I assure you it is quite easy. Some women take pics on their couch! Can you imagine how clean she keeps that engine?
 

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Just more of the deck is stacked... and right into degrading women for attracting more numbers of the opposite sex.
 

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[QUOTE="RandomDude, post: 20341093, member: 18952"

As for the "80%" and "20%", I placed ""s for a reason lol. I don't believe in that ratio. Life isn't so simple :LOL:
Nor are women all one-dimensional gold diggers lol
Life may not be that simple, but Tinder is. The 80/20 rule thing really applies to OLD, where it is based on several studies of different apps on men and women's swiping habits. That 80% of the women are competing for 20% of the men by swipes/likes.

Sometimes I think we "old-timers" don't understand what the birth of social media has done to the dating market for the youngin's these days. From what I see, I would never recommend a young man marry in today's market.
[/QUOTE]



Tinder and similar are not ones I would ever use. To judge/choose based entirely on a photo is crazy. My husband didn't even have a photo up when I first contacted him. I was attracted by what he had written.
 

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I’ve never personally met someone claiming to be MGTOW, but my daughter has encountered a few of them lurking online in video game forums. She knows to avoid them.
It’s one thing to be burned and go on a “I hate women” or “I hate men” rampage for a while. Quite another to base one’s lifestyle around it. As long as these guys are open and honest from the very start about their views, I see nothing wrong with it. If they are making a game out of tricking women into sex through deceit, then they are worse than the women they claim are “not worth it.”

I can understand the desire to swear off relationships after being abused or used. I planned on being alone for the rest of my life after two different a-holes during my twenties seemed to think relationships involved the man being catered to, making bad decisions, and even being abusive, while the woman was just supposed to be happy to be slave to a man. I decided I was better off alone, and research is starting to prove that women in general are better off single unless their partner truly IS Mr. Wonderful.
I’ve been happily married to my Mr. Wonderful for almost a decade now, and I tell him regularly he is a diamond in the rough. He thinks the same of me.
Who knows?
Maybe most people (male and female) are just too selfish to be in a relationship, and when they find out relationships aren’t all about their own needs being exclusively met, they blame society instead of themselves?
I’ve always though people should come with warning labels - self identification as MGTOW is actually doing quite a few women a favor… and vice versa.
 

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I would have said "Maybe SOME people (male and female) are just too selfish to be in a relationship." And, not ALL people are cut out for marriage or even an LTR. I like to think (maybe wrongly) that most men and women are too busy going about their lives and making it as best they can to spend five minutes feeling sorry for themselves because they were mistreated by a member of the opposite sex. They mostly pick themselves up, dust themselves off try to course correct and get back into the game.

One thing I have observed with friends and relatives related to their relations with the opposite gender, is those who choose poorly seem to be stuck in the same spot over and over. Their picker is broken, so for example an abused woman picks abusers without fail over and over.
 

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Maybe people are "lookin for love in all the wrong places". All of my kids are married. One used OLD to meet current wife. My grandkids actively dating. None complaining the deck stacked against them.
You're looking at this with your old eyes and old mindset. I used to be in your camp that these guys are whiners and ought to man up the way we did. Then I took a closer look and this is what I discovered.

1. The dating market is nothing more than another market and can be looked at in terms of economic analysis (for those of you who have studied economics).

2. MGTOW is a macro market response to general market conditions. The demand and supply curves have shifted dramatically for the average guy (generally rated as 6 or less). There is greater supply and LESS DEMAND. Women also know there is a never-ending supply of thirsty men. These curves were kept in balance by the rule of monogamy when women had fewer options and relied upon men earlier in life. Some called it the Patriarchy. In other words, the market was REGULATED where men/women of similar types 6s, 5s, 7s matched up. the best time for average guys was 1900 - 1949 where men pretty much had a guaranteed match.

3. What we are seeing today is a DEREGULATED market. Women rule in this environment. This is where female nature is unleashed. We haven't seen this in a long long time. the stuff the bible warned about and most laughed it off as being incidents from a long-ago time. Hey, they warned us. AVG WOMEN wield substantial power in this environment. AVG women have the ability to go upwards and attain men of higher standing (7s,8s,9s). These are the guys who spread their seed far and wide as they are designed to do Hence your 20%ers. Avg men can try all they want but they have little power in this market. There is no demand for them. Why? They are deemed not good looking enough.

4. LOOKS MATTER: If you are a man and your face is a certain way deemed average or unappealing by the voting females, you are fked. These guys can improve, get muscles, go alpha, but they can't change their face. Nor can a guy 5'5" put on more inches. It is so fking harsh until I stumbled upon this. This is Darwinism in action. We often hear the question "Does size matter"? The real question is "Does Face Matter?" It matters a lot. Women will never admit to it. they speak of personality and being funny and the rest of it. But they act in a different way.

5. we are retreating to our distant past. DNA studies show that 80% of our female ancestors reproduced while only 40% of males reproduced. Again. top guys got the with the females. this is how nature works. This is what MGTOW has recognized.

6. Try being a guy that is a 5 and getting with some girl on Tinder. Can't do it. No-fault of the guy. He just looks a certain way.

Conclusion: The avg man is no match in terms of power as compared to the avg woman in the dating game. She wields all the power. Especially on OLD. Avg Men are simply reacting to market conditions just as drivers would react to gasoline rising to $15.00 per gallon. Drivers will give up their cars for bicycles. The Avg guys power remains and will always be the power of commitment in declining to serve these women in marriage with his wallet later in life.

It is harsh. I know. But this is reality and it's going to get much worse.
 

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At least the stuff I saw, I don't think it was so much complete avoidance, it is just avoiding anything that includes "settling down".....I know I for one make no claims about avoiding sex, but if one talks to me about 'settling down', I set them straight real fast.
This is me. I like being in a committed dating relationship, but I won't live with a romantic partner ever again. There's a name for this: Living Apart Together (LAT).

I am in the middle of a breakup with a girl I was LAT with for almost 10 years, and I'm worried about finding another that will accept the situation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
I think my thread is sort of stepping more into just modern dating. I will try to refocus on this mgtow or maybe 'red pill' type movement. What I am most interested in is people that or sort of on that path, to what degree, and what lead them there? Again, I do realize I am on a marriage site. I for one don't have any single friends anymore, male or female. It is also not a question that comes up in casual conversation.

I feel there is WAY more to this way of thinking than just choosing to date because of the female mentality. As I have said, the government now has laws in place that specifically target fathers and husbands. It would be very rare that men get the better side of the stick. All this means is the deck is stacked against men to an insane level. There seems to be no shortage of men willing to walk the plank, but you just cannot excuse the statistics and economics.

Me just being a number cruncher I have evaluated my chances of actually being in a happy LTR as about 5%. That number is evaluated based on 50% divorce rate, 25% of the married ones are even happy, age, previous LTRs, etc. But I also factored in attraction. For me it does not come down to finding "someone", it comes down to someone I would actually be attracted to, plus be a good human. Those are GONE..... And if they do pop back up, they are seriously damaged. So my mentality is like focusing effort in life to "winning the lottery" and we all know how foolish that is.

I am just bringing up my reasoning. At least for me this is not like "I hate all women and swear them off", but rather I stopped looking entirely and no longer the focus in any part of my life. I sort of think some guys on this strict mgtow trip might be coming more from a place of total rejection most of their life. I could see where a guy could only take so much.
 

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I can understand the desire to swear off relationships after being abused or used. I planned on being alone for the rest of my life after two different a-holes during my twenties seemed to think relationships involved the man being catered to, making bad decisions, and even being abusive, while the woman was just supposed to be happy to be slave to a man. I decided I was better off alone, and research is starting to prove that women in general are better off single unless their partner truly IS Mr. Wonderful.
There's at least one woman on reddit's dating over 40 sub every week that sounds a lot like a female version of MGTOW. IE They've sworn off of men because dating them isn't worth it. @MEA by her how admission was one of them.

I don't begrudge anyone evaluating the benefit to effort and risk for an activity and deciding not to participate in it. No one is obligated to do it and they shouldn't be judged for deciding not to do it. Even if you decide to date, you're not obligated to go about it in a particular way. If you don't want monogamy, you don't have to have monogamous relationships. If you want to wait until marriage before sleeping with someone, then you can do that too.
 

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I think my thread is sort of stepping more into just modern dating. I will try to refocus on this mgtow or maybe 'red pill' type movement. What I am most interested in is people that or sort of on that path, to what degree, and what lead them there? Again, I do realize I am on a marriage site. I for one don't have any single friends anymore, male or female. It is also not a question that comes up in casual conversation.

I feel there is WAY more to this way of thinking than just choosing to date because of the female mentality. As I have said, the government now has laws in place that specifically target fathers and husbands. It would be very rare that men get the better side of the stick. All this means is the deck is stacked against men to an insane level. There seems to be no shortage of men willing to walk the plank, but you just cannot excuse the statistics and economics.

Me just being a number cruncher I have evaluated my chances of actually being in a happy LTR as about 5%. That number is evaluated based on 50% divorce rate, 25% of the married ones are even happy, age, previous LTRs, etc. But I also factored in attraction. For me it does not come down to finding "someone", it comes down to someone I would actually be attracted to, plus be a good human. Those are GONE..... And if they do pop back up, they are seriously damaged. So my mentality is like focusing effort in life to "winning the lottery" and we all know how foolish that is.

I am just bringing up my reasoning. At least for me this is not like "I hate all women and swear them off", but rather I stopped looking entirely and no longer the focus in any part of my life. I sort of think some guys on this strict mgtow trip might be coming more from a place of total rejection most of their life. I could see where a guy could only take so much.

I'm kind of MGTOW lite (or LAT as described in my last post), and being treated so unfairly by the family court system is at least half of the reason why. I also really have a hard time seeing many benefits of living with a partner, and LOTS of drawbacks. I don't want to argue over how many dishes are in the sink, or when the yard gets mowed. I want the entire master bedroom closet to myself. I don't want to be coerced into spending $5k on some patio furniture. Just some examples. The ex wife also seemed to think it was okay to scold me like a child for not doing as I was told, which was typically met with something like "why the F are you talking to me that way?" from me, netting more built up resentment for both of us. Never again.

If you don't live together, the passion hangs around a lot longer. That being said, it's mostly run out in my currently-failing 10 year LAT relationship. Also, if you get in an argument, you can just head home and get back together after you both cool off. This only works for two independent people that are okay with significant alone time. I honestly enjoy being alone.

As far as a straight guy swearing off sex with women forever just on principle, I don't think anyone does that for real unless they just don't have any options. Thankfully, I seem to be in the 20%, and haven't had problems getting attention in OLD when I've used it in the past. I guess I'll be finding out soon if the extra grey hair I have now is going to change that.
 
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