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I bought a Jeep for my oldest son to drive when he got his license about 10 years ago. It sounded like a Ford Pinto so I put really throaty duels on it which made the thing sound like a V8 and a bad arse V8 to be more specific. The thing is, it sounded bad but it wasn't really bad and anyone driving it knew it. That's what I think of when people talk about stepping up their alpha. Just like I made my Jeep impersonate a V8 sound for coolness, stepping up the Alpha is usually impersonating character traits rather than actually becoming the person those traits spill out from.
 

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Still no evidence right?

Without it, what am I supposed to agree to. What are these generalities you are speaking of? The ones on the PUA blogs, right?.
Nope, I haven't read any PUA blogs. So I don't know what they are (although I've got some idea).

I'm talking about generalities in general. :smile2:
 

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Who knows? I just used her name because someone else indicated she was obviously desirable and wonderful.

I'm sure she has great appeal for some.

Heidi Klum was/is a Super Model and may have been a former SI Swimsuit model as well. I picked her as an example primarily because I couldn't think of any of the other ones names. Obviously, I don't keep up with such things, and neither do you apparently.

FWIW, that's where the name originated.
 

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And as I asked Buddy, if you would like to show me some kind of evidence what "most" women are attracted to, I would be happy to discuss it with you or anyone else.

Yet that evidence doesn't exist.

Go ahead and look for it and let me know. I'd love to see it if there is ANY properly researched data that proves women generally are attracted to alpha dude-bro's.

But the fact is, such research doesn't exist and the minimal research done on what people find attractive in no way conclusively shows women like alpha dude-bro's.

Therefore....what you and others claim to be what women are generally attracted to is nothing more than what the media and PUA blogs are TELLING you that women are generally attracted to. And you swallow it as if it is "truth", without wondering "hey, I wonder how they came up with those generalities?"

When you actually do look deeper into how they came up with those generalities (and I have), you will find that it is smoke and mirrors and bad science, all with one agenda: to sell you books.
Why would you require some sort of pseudo scientific statistical study, which would probably be wrought with inaccuracies and bias from the start, to change your position on this?

None exist because none are necessary if you live in the real world and use the powers of observation.

In my own life I have seen the results. I've seen it with my friends, some former college athletes like myself, and some not. I've seen it everywhere I go in society. I happen to live in a beach community and I can tell you that the women definitely desire the more muscular, tan men, unless I'm completely misreading all of their glances and stares. I don't think I am.

I've also raised a daughter and know what she and all her friends found attractive in men and no, pasty white, scrawny weaklings were not on their radar.

Now some women may find those sorts attractive or more likely, have to settle for them because they aren't able to do better. These people can and do find love but they are not usually at the top of the "Desire Meter".

At least, I have not seen any evidence to date to support that position.
 

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Why would you require some sort of pseudo scientific statistical study, which would probably be wrought with inaccuracies and bias from the start, to change your position on this?

None exist because none are necessary if you live in the real world and use the powers of observation.

In my own life I have seen the results. I've seen it with my friends, some former college athletes like myself, and some not. I've seen it everywhere I go in society. I happen to live in a beach community and I can tell you that the women definitely desire the more muscular, tan men, unless I'm completely misreading all of their glances and stares. I don't think I am.

I've also raised a daughter and know what she and all her friends found attractive in men and no, pasty white, scrawny weaklings were not on their radar.

Now some women may find those sorts attractive or more likely, have to settle for them because they aren't able to do better. These people can and do find love but they are not usually at the top of the "Desire Meter".

At least, I have not seen any evidence to date to support that position.
I don't require a pseudo scientific statistical study, I require a real one that is reasonably accurate and broad reaching if anyone is going to claim they know what the bell curve of attraction is. As you say though (and I have been saying) no such thing exists because it can't exist, there are too many variables.

So then you say we can just use our powers of observation and report what we are seeing around us.

Awesome! That means we are simply reporting what is true for ourselves and our cohorts. I totally agree, this is an interesting topic and can be very useful.

Except, what if what I see around me doesn't match what you see around you? Why do you think what you are seeing is "the general population's view" and what I'm seeing isn't? If we are all only going off of "what we see around us" and I see far more diversity of preferences and attraction than what you see, I'm gonna call bs on you saying your view is "correct" and more common than what I see.

You should see how the kids look at each other where I live, and what criteria they have. It would possibly shock you. But guess what? They are all hot, young, and checking each other out (and screwing each other), no matter how much skin shows or doesn't show. We get naked a lot around here, too, but we also have to stay bundled up for much of the year. Your experience doesn't trump mine. Because yes, I agree that young healthy people will always have their eyes on each other, everywhere they go (and the rest of us have our eyes on them usually, too, because they're hot).

I raised two kids, one each. My house has been filled with giggly girls in love with scrawny white boys, multiple times over the years. My kids and several of their friends, mostly in the geeky-cute range (who grew up to become bearded hipsters), had multiple slumber parties, camping trips, proms, dance parties, fund raisers, school events, and so much more....and my experience in this is every bit as relevant as your is. Every scrawny weakling who has been through my house eventually has girlfriends or wives...and many of them are considered total hotties by many women.

This that you said "Now some women may find those sorts attractive or more likely, have to settle for them because they aren't able to do better."...is simply mean and judgmental of you. Who others are attracted to is not something you get to dictate. Even if it makes no sense to you and you don't see it happening, scrawny white boys get laid.

Everyone, everywhere, eventually gets laid, some get laid more. If you want to get laid more you should ask sexually successful people about it. Your version of success will determine who you ask.

Here are some actual, measurable and totally logical statements.

Most people get married at least once in their lives.

Nearly all people are sexual and have sex in their lives.

Most people are average on any bell curve you can make, including the attraction bell curve.

And for some reason, people are trying to say that only the hottest people at the "most attractive" end of the bell curve* get a lot of sex or have relationship success. Even though, statistically, almost everyone is getting it on at some point.


*Keeping in mind again, that this bell curve of least to most attractive can never actually be made in any accurate, far reaching way.
 

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FW,

If you think my comments are mean and judgmental then so be it. I will continue to stand by what I say. I would be interested to know where you live as the standard for attractive may be completely different than where I live. The beach communities in Florida and California as well are where many of the beautiful people are. They are going to be more attractive by most standards than people from other areas.

That has been my observation and the observation of many in these parts. I still contend that most women are attracted to strong, muscular, tan, confident men than some of the types you describe. There are always outliers and those types will be found attractive by somebody and likely get married some day.

That does not mean that they are found attractive by the majority or that they could have their "pick", if you will. The Alpha types will however have their pick most likely. And let me also say that while most will have sex, most will not have sex with the kind of attractive woman the Alpha is most likely to get. That's the difference.

You see, the Alpha could have his pick and likely your pick as well while the reverse is not true. That's a big difference and a rather important one to most men.

Finally, I would add that I do think my opinion on this subject counts for more than yours. At the risk of being self congratulatory, I am an Alpha male and have been most of my life. I have a good idea of what constitutes being an Alpha. I have a lot of friends, some of which are also Alphas and some that are true blue Betas, and know what kinds of mates they can attain.

The more Alpha ones have clearly done better in my estimation. If this topic is how to be more Alpha and up your sex rank with your wife or significant other, I and others like me would be in a better position to answer that question than you likely would. If this thread were about how to be more "womanly" or less domineering or some such thing to improve your sex with your SO, I would clearly defer to a woman's point of view. Alas, it is not though.
 

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I actually think this, up the Alpha and f*ck your wife 6x a week is pretty offensive to women as there is an implied "whether she wants it or not".
Now "bossing around" and playing the Alpha to some women may give results in the short term, many women do want to please, but such abuse and fundamental disrespect usually comes unstuck, unhappiness and resentment builds and she is then out the door, leaving the husband dumbfounded. What did I do wrong?

I think many such strict Alpha/Beta believers, do not understand or respect women at all, their emotional intelligence quotient is in their boots, everything is too black and white and they have no concept of subtlety and what makes individual women tick.
Any intelligent women will write them off pretty quick as a dead loss.
 

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My idea of an Alpha male:

-He knows who he is and what he stands for.

-He takes care of himself, in order to take care of those he loves.

-He is clear in his needs and desires. No wishy washyness.

-He has goals and ambitions for himself.

-He protects those that he loves. Financially, making sure we are secured and safe. Making sure that even when he is not with us we will be safe.

-He knows how to be kind and generous.

-He knows when to be soft and when to be hard. No pun intended.

-He knows when to rely on his support system. We are his back up team.

-He trust his woman. Because she fuxks up and it's done. No baby why you did this. Line in the sand is clear and defined.

-He protects us from danger. I have seen my husband move so fast and had a guy up the wall with his hand around his neck and his feet dangling, because he talked **** about raping me. Trying to show how bad ass he was in front of me. You know like saying oh what is your man gonna do, he must be a puxxy. What he did not realize was that my calm and collected husband is a former marine.

-He is calm and collected. Not quick to anger.

-He loves me. Makes sure I know that by his actions and words.
 

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I happen to live in a beach community and I can tell you that the women definitely desire the more muscular, tan men, unless I'm completely misreading all of their glances and stares. I don't think I am.
So we're back to alpha = good looking? 'Cuz I think we established pretty early on in this thread that, yes, good looking people are considered attractive by a lot of other people, and yes, they probably have more "options".

Of course, if bagging the hottest babes is your primary goal and measure of success, then yes, being very good looking will certainly help you with that.

But what about all those other alpha traits: dominating, aggressive, gets what they want, is BMOC? These traits actually aren't all that attractive. Well, correction: they are for some, but most certainly not all.

And, let's not forget that some people might have other goals than bagging the hottest babes. Take my SO and his friend for example: My SO is kind, generous, looks out for people, treats others well, laid back, and has all sorts of wonderful qualities that are always dismissed as beta and unattractive. His friend is totally GQ, very good looking, always had lots of "options" even though he's a selfish a$$ and treated women like dirt. Fast forward from high school: My SO is in a LTR where he can have as much sex as he wants (and then some), where he says that he is treated like a king and doesn"t know what he did to deserve it. His friend is currently with a woman who cheats on him regularly, and leaves him to look after the kids while she goes off on vacations and to parties by herself.

Who is the winner? The guy with tons of options or the guy with one?

I know my SO used to envy his friend, but I think the tables have turned.
 

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Who is the winner? The guy with tons of options or the guy with one?

I know my SO used to envy his friend, but I think the tables have turned.
I think in theory, the pure Alpha sounds like it should work, but in practice there is, a usually ignored side to the equation and that is the female perspective, to all this machismo.
So whilst we may appreciate some of the points of the pure Alpha man, I guess not many women would actually want to live with him long term.
 

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I tend to agree with mostly content, when a hot looking girl approaches, most guys tell their buddies "she is out of your league" even before they know a single thing else about her, and most guys understand what our buddies are saying. Of course, the hot looking girl is definitely not out of every guy's league, just the betas. We can delude ourselves into thinking we're an alpha and approach her, and virtually always get rejected (unless we are good at that game or else just attractive -alpha- enough for her). Alpha guys won't relate to what I'm saying, nor will most attractive women, the rest of us get it though.
 

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Good evening
It is possible that alpha guys get hot babes because that is what they are looking for. I don't particularly want "hot babes". I find a lot of women attractive and appearance is not that high on the list of what matters. I much prefer interesting, non-crazy, self-reliant, adventurous, non-sensitive.

If I see an attractive large-breasted, high-heel wearing woman, while I may think she is "attractive" in some abstract way, I tend to also think "there is no way she is hiking to Guggi Hutte dressed like that...".

In bed enthusiasm and passion count for a lot more than appearance.

I'm not saying that beautiful women cannot have all these qualities that I care about. Just that beauty is not the most important criteria to me.
 

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You see, the Alpha could have his pick and likely your pick as well while the reverse is not true. That's a big difference and a rather important one to most men.

Finally, I would add that I do think my opinion on this subject counts for more than yours. At the risk of being self congratulatory, I am an Alpha male and have been most of my life. I have a good idea of what constitutes being an Alpha. I have a lot of friends, some of which are also Alphas and some that are true blue Betas, and know what kinds of mates they can attain.

The more Alpha ones have clearly done better in my estimation. If this topic is how to be more Alpha and up your sex rank with your wife or significant other, I and others like me would be in a better position to answer that question than you likely would. If this thread were about how to be more "womanly" or less domineering or some such thing to improve your sex with your SO, I would clearly defer to a woman's point of view. Alas, it is not though.
:rolleyes:

As I have said many times, my beef is when anyone is trying to assert that what they think the bell curve is, is actually based on any type of research or science. Your post above actually addresses nothing I have asked for....you are merely going ahead with your opinions. Which is fine, since you do say they are your opinions.

However, you believing your opinion weighs more than mine? Because you're an alpha male?

Puh-leeze. I'm a hot as hell bisexual gymnast, have always had wonderful success in pulling men (and women) toward me with my body, face, and mind, and I'm married to an alpha sex god who has never gone a day without female attention. We both have the sex life we've always wanted and have never had to worry about getting dates, sex, LTR's or any other type of companionship we wanted.

And yet...I'm not so arrogant as to assume that what I or my husband want is what set the standard of the "general" population.

When you say that men wanting to take their pick of women is their measure of success, I say, that's your opinion and only your opinion. Being married to a man who could do that more or less, what I love best about him is that he doesn't act that way or feel that way or even think this is a big deal.

You see it is true for me too....however, I realize that just because a man may be interested in my surface features, doesn't mean we are compatible or that he is a decent man or that he would give a crap about me as a person. This is also how my husband has described his experience....that just because a woman may be beautiful, it says nothing about her character and so therefore, it doesn't mean he is necessarily interested even if she is coming on to him. Beautiful people are everywhere...it matters very little actually.

Being dazzled by what is on the outside is NOT how every man works, even if it is how you work. Wanting endless amounts of free sex with different women is also NOT how every man wants to operate, even if he can.

Here is a book that gives some data on that exact subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Challenging-Casanova-Beyond-Stereotype-Promiscuous/dp/1118072669

But of course, you will not read it and will hold on to what you believe is true and continue to project that it is true for everyone.

That's ok, too. As long as you are saying it is your opinion, and not fact. You may suspect that your opinion is fact, but it is not...

As well as being a sexy goddess married to a sex god, I have a sex blog and am part of the very large sex blogging community. I have some knowledge and my finger on the pulse of what a lot of people who are highly sexual are saying and doing. So my opinion is not based on only my limited life experiences, it is also based on a much bigger picture that includes a lot of people who talk about sex all day.

What I've learned more than anything else, is that highly sexual people are not the non-discerning types who only wish for more and hotter conquests that you seem to think "most men" are. I feel I give a lot more credit to "most men" than you do, by acknowledging that they actually have standards.
 

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Good evening
People who behave in a "alpha" fashion do well with women who wants someone who behaves that way. They will do badly with women who don't want me who behave that way.

I don't know or particularly care what the percentages are of women who like alphas. The women I personally find interesting seem to be interested in a different set of traits.

What matters is how well you interact with the people YOU like to be with. I expect you would be bored silly with the women who's company I enjoy, as I likely would be with the ones you spend time with.

A super-model likely would have no interest in me - but then I would likely have no interest in her. That's fine, we don't all need to be attracted to the same people.










snip
You see, the Alpha could have his pick and likely your pick as well while the reverse is not true. That's a big difference and a rather important one to most men.
snip
 

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There are a couple of posters here that just refuse to deal with any generalizations at all. It's as if there is no bell curve and that you're just as likely to find something on the tails as in the middle.
Greetings!

Damn straight, brother! It's just amazing. You'd think the idea of embracing some solid, general principles was like trying to nail jello to the wall! Lol! Let's say we have two friends, James and Robert.

James is 6'4", and a bloated hog-beast. He typically dresses in shorts and flip flops, or sweats and a t-shirt. His hygiene is poor. He's loud, obnoxious, and crude. He works as security for some warehouse.

Robert is 5'9", and thin. He has a crazy beard which you suspect has some creatures nesting somewhere in there. Lol! Robert is shy, quiet, and awkward. He works as a dishwasher at some diner.

Both men are single, lonely, and unhappy. Both experience constant rejection from women. In truth, most of the time women ignore them entirely. You know both of these men though, as nice, fun, intelligent guys, good friends, despite their flaws.

In both cases--and many others, even friends that are married and in a roughly similar place, they would all benefit from--

(1) Going to the gym, changing their diet, working out and building a strong, muscular physique.

(2) Embracing masculine behaviors and attitudes, being more mature, having good hygiene, smelling good.

(3) Developing some charm and learning to be more social. Learning appropriate social skills, diversifying their topics beyond a narrow few.

(4) Improving or changing jobs, handling their money better, dressing sharp. Learning how to dress better, shoes, ties, jackets, hair cuts, beard trim, looking *good*.

Such principles--embracing "Alpha" attributes of being muscular and in good shape, being masculine; being charming and social; being gainfully employed, handling money well;--would all be very positive for them, and yet, both of them are individuals, and quite different from each other. Despite such, they both have similar frustrations and failures with women.

And yet, in general, the same principles of "Alpha" attributes would help them both.
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Good evening
People who behave in a "alpha" fashion do well with women who wants someone who behaves that way. They will do badly with women who don't want me who behave that way.

I don't know or particularly care what the percentages are of women who like alphas. The women I personally find interesting seem to be interested in a different set of traits.

What matters is how well you interact with the people YOU like to be with. I expect you would be bored silly with the women who's company I enjoy, as I likely would be with the ones you spend time with.

A super-model likely would have no interest in me - but then I would likely have no interest in her. That's fine, we don't all need to be attracted to the same people.
Greetings!

Good point, Richard. However, I believe you are misunderstanding the principles. Embracing "Alpha" attributes is not necessarily for the purpose of attracting "super models". Embracing "Alpha" attributes makes you a better man, a happier and more confident man. You gain the extra benefit of having more, different women attracted to you.

White, black, Asian, Latinas--all enjoy men with such attributes. Plump, thick, thin or hard-body, young or old, or in between, they all are attracted to men that embrace such "Alpha" attributes--in general.
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Why would you require some sort of pseudo scientific statistical study, which would probably be wrought with inaccuracies and bias from the start, to change your position on this?

None exist because none are necessary if you live in the real world and use the powers of observation.

In my own life I have seen the results. I've seen it with my friends, some former college athletes like myself, and some not. I've seen it everywhere I go in society. I happen to live in a beach community and I can tell you that the women definitely desire the more muscular, tan men, unless I'm completely misreading all of their glances and stares. I don't think I am.

I've also raised a daughter and know what she and all her friends found attractive in men and no, pasty white, scrawny weaklings were not on their radar.

Now some women may find those sorts attractive or more likely, have to settle for them because they aren't able to do better. These people can and do find love but they are not usually at the top of the "Desire Meter".

At least, I have not seen any evidence to date to support that position.

Greetings!

Outstanding post, my friend.

I didn't need a PUA site, or a book--or some "study" from BFE to tell me women, in general, are attracted to in men! Lol! Like you, real life experience and observation goes a long way and does just fine.

On my Marine base, we had clubs that were open to civilian women. On Wednesdays, Fridays, and Saturdays these clubs were *packed* with women, wall to wall, of all colors, shapes and sizes. From LA, Long Beach, to San Diego, and Orange County, they filled the clubs. Like sharks to a feeding frenzy, my fellow Marines would arrive, and yet there was always more and more women. Sometimes I think the *women* were the Sharks coming to the feeding frenzy! Lol

Always, while most all Marines there look good--the men that dressed sharper, were charming and social, got attention from far more women--of all kinds--than the shy, less charming men that remained sitting in the dark shadows.

In civilian clubs, the same dynamics work. At work, in restaurants, the beaches, you can see the "Alpha" attributes working the same principles of attraction with women, day after day, whether they are white, black, Asian or Latina.
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Greetings!

Good point, Richard. However, I believe you are misunderstanding the principles. Embracing "Alpha" attributes is not necessarily for the purpose of attracting "super models". Embracing "Alpha" attributes makes you a better man, a happier and more confident man. You gain the extra benefit of having more, different women attracted to you.

White, black, Asian, Latinas--all enjoy men with such attributes. Plump, thick, thin or hard-body, young or old, or in between, they all are attracted to men that embrace such "Alpha" attributes--in general.
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This is so sad.

Even when another man comes along and says "what you are describing isn't what *I* want", you still insist you know better than he does what he wants.

Whatever. I tried again to take on the men who think they can speak for everyone and who think they and only they get to decide what "most people want"...both men and women, mind you, these guys claim to know what most women want and that women themselves DON'T know what they want, so he's here to tell you exactly what you want, ladies....

Unbelievably sad that these guys keep sharing these ideas with others.

However...I will go along with my day, observing reality instead of assuming what I want is what everyone wants...and I will continue to see average men and average women, happily flirting, dating, falling in love, and being sexually attracted to each other. Because THAT is reality.
 

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FW: If your experience is mostly among sex positive people who are comfortable talking about sex and blogging about sex and having sex, and whose experience is that they generally have never had problems finding a partner, then your life experience is completely irrelevant to the life of a beta male who has had little success attracting a mate. He isn't among the men you know. And the pool of women he can attract is not among your cohort.

It may well be true that not all women look for alpha characteristics. And many / most women are not looking for an entirely alpha male with zero beta aspects. No one is saying there is no such thing as too much alpha. We are just saying that there is certainly a thing as being too beta for many / most women. And that if a man has not had success with women so far. He should at least explore the possibility that he is currently too beta. and see if he can be comfortable becoming more alpha. Not pretend he is. But change himself. Hit the gym. Focus at work. Make real changes in his situation. We are not telling him to pretend or to be something he is not. We are telling him to be the best version of himself he can be. And some times, that means to stop being lazy (= beta characteristic) and work harder on self improvement.
 
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