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Let's hope you win your freedom, no matter how you approach it.

p.s. You got a vasectomy and your wife wanted more kids? Oh forget it. ;)
 

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Here's me throwing my own wild and outlandish guess in the hat :)

OP mentioned that he's from NYC, then it's possible that his appointment was regarding him registering to be a member of the GOP? That could be a dealbreaker for his ww.
 

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My guess is OP shaved his beard, or moustache. That his ex wife told him that he wouldn't be able to date before he got rid of it, or she couldn't be with him without it. Maybe he changed his haircut to bald.
 

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"Co"-dependent, no. Me dependent, yes. She will be fine without me or anyone. It is strange that she has such so low self esteem when guys out of the wood work hit on her constantly, she knows she doesn't need me, or anyone, to be ok. Yet I, I know I will be ok with out her, intellectually, but in my gut I feel I'm going to drown without her.



People are so obsessed with the thing I did. It is nothing any of you would find objectionable. It is a thing between my FW and myself that is so particular and personal that it would identify us, if in fact anyone that do not know us and was reading this it would not shock any of you. You would say WTF, that is all it is???

I can and will do further damage. I am about to cut off the money she depends upon. Can she handle that? I think maybe. She is making comment to the effect that she will.



Yes, I do. I want to see how far I can push her before she breaks. I know that she did not intentionally do that to me but she did in fact do that to me. I want retribution and restitution. I know restitution is Not possible in this context. Retribution is possibly eternal.

Maybe she won't break. Maybe if I had cheated instead of her, she would have held true. No one will know.


I hate sexist comments. I rail against them all the time. Men and women are so much more alike than different that it really annoys me when people post sexist comments. However...... maybe this a 49/51 thing that men want to compete. To "win." Stupid men want this. Maybe stupid women too. I don't want to assume men are more stupid than women when it comes to "winning" at the cost of your own soul. Here though, I want to win. Game on. Hence the Charade. What woman would enter that game without thinking she would "win."

What a sick and twisted web we weave, when we practice to deceive. (Sir Walter Scott) with modern adaptation.
I am sorry @One Eighty but you remind me of the adage that unforgiveness is like drinking poison and hoping the other person will die. It is not going to happen but allowing the level of resentment you carry creates a root of bitterness that will poison you and no one else. Why live like this. Either you leave, let go and forgive her and live like room-mates but the desire for retribution will only hurt you ultimately.
 

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Discussion Starter · #67 ·
Let's hope you win your freedom, no matter how you approach it.

p.s. You got a vasectomy and your wife wanted more kids? Oh forget it. ;)
Not bad! But the opposite is true. I wanted more kids, way back when. After Dday even. For a couple of years post Dday I was offering to let bygones be bygones if only she would have one more kid with me. Of course she didn't want to send that kind of death signal to her OM so she did not take me up on that. Now she is in menopause.

Here's me throwing my own wild and outlandish guess in the hat :)

OP mentioned that he's from NYC, then it's possible that his appointment was regarding him registering to be a member of the GOP? That could be a dealbreaker for his ww.
LMAO! good one.

I am sorry @One Eighty but you remind me of the adage that unforgiveness is like drinking poison and hoping the other person will die. It is not going to happen but allowing the level of resentment you carry creates a root of bitterness that will poison you and no one else. Why live like this. Either you leave, let go and forgive her and live like room-mates but the desire for retribution will only hurt you ultimately.
That old adage never rang true for me. If I achieve retribution, that would really go a long way towards healing, for me. If I fail, at least I tried. Even if in failure I end up hurting myself in some way, at least I tried. Either way I think it is better to try but that is just me. I know for many others that is not true.

The fact that you’ve continued to have sex with her complicates the situation.
For her maybe. For me it is one of the perks of living with her even though I'd rather not. She satisfies me in that way and I then don't need to be hard up or constantly looking for sex like a lot of divorced friends I have and then settling for sex with random women that are as hard up as you are. Not necessarily your ideal match. My ex is physically my ideal match. Which is one of the many reasons why I married her. I knew I'd never want another, sexually.

I really can't stand the thought of it. I know it is a stupid thing people say in this situation and it is probably not true but right now I feel like when we do separate, I will never take another lover. Not even a casual fling. Too bad she didn't feel the same way about me.
 

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Not bad! But the opposite is true. I wanted more kids, way back when. After Dday even. For a couple of years post Dday I was offering to let bygones be bygones if only she would have one more kid with me. Of course she didn't want to send that kind of death signal to her OM so she did not take me up on that. Now she is in menopause.
I'm sorry to hear that she did not choose to meet you somewhere in the middle on the path to reconciliation. she has agency over her body and she can choose to have another kid or not, but keeping the lines open with her OM does not show good intentions to the BS.

Did you ever ask her that "how could she expect to have a successful reconciliation, when she chose not to take you up on your offer in order to keep her lines of communication open with the OM?"

For me it is one of the perks of living with her even though I'd rather not. She satisfies me in that way and I then don't need to be hard up or constantly looking for sex like a lot of divorced friends I have and then settling for sex with random women that are as hard up as you are. Not necessarily your ideal match. My ex is physically my ideal match. Which is one of the many reasons why I married her. I knew I'd never want another, sexually.
How would you know for sure till you try? I mean "Never say never and also that all generalizations are false"? :p:p
 

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We just both regret this. I regret her affair that killed our marriage. She regrets that I didn't give her a second chance.
I'm curious to know how she's now coping with your decision? Has she found a suitable apartment yet?

It is understandable that there's regret. It was her choice to have an affair and she chose to. It was your choice to give her a second chance and you chose not to. Not sure why she would regret not getting a second chance though. Do you know why she feels entitled to receive a second chance?
 

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That old adage never rang true for me. If I achieve retribution, that would really go a long way towards healing, for me. If I fail, at least I tried. Even if in failure I end up hurting myself in some way, at least I tried. Either way I think it is better to try but that is just me. I know for many others that is not true.
you can't get retribution by failing to forgive. Retribution implies revenge. Served cold and late.
I actually understand and accept the charade better than most here. If I had divorced the sex would have ended. Honestly the cohabitating would have ended too. I'm leaning towards married living separate, but I don't have enough houses or even bedrooms.
I wonder if my girls haven't moved out because they know the room will be taken immediately.
 

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The background on this:

The Charade

If you read my first two or three posts on the above thread you will know enough to understand this post.

I pulled the plug. Finally.

As those of you that have been following my story know, this has been a long time coming and well planned out. My financial position came to the point that I wanted it to be before I could end it.

I didn't just come right out and say, "You have to go now." I did something that I knew would cause her to want to leave. Something I have wanted to do for a long time but put off. Before the affair I didn't even consider it because I wanted to be with her, loved her so much that I was willing to give this up.

After DDay I put it off because I couldn't afford to have her leave me. Plus I didn't want to have my kids half time and have them exposed to whatever creep she would hook up with. My kids are in their late teens now and I also have paid down my alimony obligation to the point that I could pay her off in one lump sum. I had enough equity in my house that I refinanced (at a fantastic interest rate) and put the money aside so that I can make that lump sum payment as soon as it is needed.

I had run the numbers and could see my ability to do this was coming up, about two years ago. I did send signals to her that I would do this for more than two years. Even so, I'm sure she never thought I would do it. She thought she still had some level of control over my decision regarding this matter. She thought I still loved her enough. Guess again.

When I did it she was in complete shock. Furious. Also sad, crying, begging me not to do it. I hate to admit that part of me really enjoyed that.

I did get closure. Since I knew it was coming, I got to really say goodbye, in my own way. One last weekend morning in bed, being lazy and happy in the Charade. Only I knew it was the last time. So, well, I cherished it. Right up till the moment I got out of bed that morning. As soon as I stood up, I quickly got dressed and then I told her I had to leave for an appointment and why. Then I quickly left. With tears in my eyes actually. I am crying again now as I write this.

This part chills my bones. I had no control over exactly when this day would come. I just knew it would be within the few months before or after today. Then when it happened, it was the anniversary of our first date! To the exact day! I'm not religious but talk about a sign from god. Wow.

The anniversary of our first date was a day that I was sappy enough to have always remembered and she never did. Red flag ya think? I stopped observing that day after her affair and she never even noticed. I tested this one year by reviving the tradition of recognizing the day. The next year, she again had no idea it was our anniversary.

I'm not going to pretend that it still doesn't hurt like a death in the family. It's been coming for a long time though, so it's not like, hit by a bus, more like cirrhosis of the liver. It still hurts. A lot.

I'm also scared.

The unknown.

Good times. Not.
Quite a finish. Hopefully the next part of your life will be less dramatic. Lol.

 

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Discussion Starter · #73 ·
My thought from the beginning of your story has been that you’ll never separate.
I can't say you are wrong. It certainly has not happened on the timeline I thought it would and that timeline keeps getting pushed back. Plus I am plagued with doubts as to whether or not it is even what I want.

However, one thing I read on Chump Lady makes sense to me. Despite my doubts about the benefits, despite my fear of the drawbacks, Chump Lady: I have no idea what your personal happiness looks like, it just doesn’t belong with a cheater.

Makes sense.

Did you ever ask her that "how could she expect to have a successful reconciliation, when she chose not to take you up on your offer in order to keep her lines of communication open with the OM?"
Yes, we did. Or rather I did. It was a one sided conversation. She was denying that her contact with the OM meant what it clearly meant. I told her that I knew what it meant and that I therefore was not going to reconcile. This was about a year post Dday. At that point I told her I would participate in the Charade of reconciliation. She did not, at that time, acknowledge that it was a Charade but as time went on, she did. When, as in any intimate relationship, there were rough patches, I would remind her our relationship was temporary and a Charade. We would then deal with the conflict with that reality in mind. Then go back to living the Charade.

I am sure that she, like @Openminded, believed I would never leave her. That she could count on me as a very solid Plan B. While she knew I thought of our relationship as a Charade, she believed she could end it at any time she wanted to by deciding I was her Plan A. About two years ago she did do that. After years of I.C. she had changed. I could see that. She cut off all contact with the OM and really dedicated herself to our relationship. The irreversible thing I did recently blew up her belief that I was willing to end the Charade when she wanted to and become her life partner again.

I'm curious to know how she's now coping with your decision? Has she found a suitable apartment yet?
No she has not. She will likely wait until closer to the start of the school year. If she even does follow through. She seems to have as mixed feelings about this as I do. I mentioned before, she has been buying expensive things for our home that she can't take with her. It is true that she is very shortsighted (affair with an MM for example) and bad with money but still, this is over the top even for her. Plus she never mentions the irreversible thing.

She does occasionally say things like, "We have to talk" about separating. Being the kind of person that has zero follow through and a high conflict avoidance personality, this "Talk" will never happen unless I force it. I see no upside in doing that.
It is understandable that there's regret. It was her choice to have an affair and she chose to. It was your choice to give her a second chance and you chose not to. Not sure why she would regret not getting a second chance though. Do you know why she feels entitled to receive a second chance?
She was born into a very wealthy family. Her father easily made ten times what I do and I'm far from middle class. On top of that she was a model at 15. High fashion jobs in Paris and NYC, television commercials. Spectacular success from birth to when she met me at 29. I don't know how someone with that background could possible not feel a strong sense of entitlement.

you can't get retribution by failing to forgive. Retribution implies revenge.
Revenge, retribution, vengeance, justice, these are things I want and am working on for the OM.

Regret and remorse are all I want from her. Lack of forgiveness, lack of respect, making it clear to her that what she wants is no longer important to me, failing to abide by her wishes with respect to the irreversible thing, these will bring remorse and regret. I think. If not, well I still want these things for myself. For my own self respect.
 

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I can't say you are wrong. It certainly has not happened on the timeline I thought it would and that timeline keeps getting pushed back. Plus I am plagued with doubts as to whether or not it is even what I want.

However, one thing I read on Chump Lady makes sense to me. Despite my doubts about the benefits, despite my fear of the drawbacks, Chump Lady: I have no idea what your personal happiness looks like, it just doesn’t belong with a cheater.

Makes sense.


Yes, we did. Or rather I did. It was a one sided conversation. She was denying that her contact with the OM meant what it clearly meant. I told her that I knew what it meant and that I therefore was not going to reconcile. This was about a year post Dday. At that point I told her I would participate in the Charade of reconciliation. She did not, at that time, acknowledge that it was a Charade but as time went on, she did. When, as in any intimate relationship, there were rough patches, I would remind her our relationship was temporary and a Charade. We would then deal with the conflict with that reality in mind. Then go back to living the Charade.

I am sure that she, like @Openminded, believed I would never leave her. That she could count on me as a very solid Plan B. While she knew I thought of our relationship as a Charade, she believed she could end it at any time she wanted to by deciding I was her Plan A. About two years ago she did do that. After years of I.C. she had changed. I could see that. She cut off all contact with the OM and really dedicated herself to our relationship. The irreversible thing I did recently blew up her belief that I was willing to end the Charade when she wanted to and become her life partner again.



No she has not. She will likely wait until closer to the start of the school year. If she even does follow through. She seems to have as mixed feelings about this as I do. I mentioned before, she has been buying expensive things for our home that she can't take with her. It is true that she is very shortsighted (affair with an MM for example) and bad with money but still, this is over the top even for her. Plus she never mentions the irreversible thing.

She does occasionally say things like, "We have to talk" about separating. Being the kind of person that has zero follow through and a high conflict avoidance personality, this "Talk" will never happen unless I force it. I see no upside in doing that.


She was born into a very wealthy family. Her father easily made ten times what I do and I'm far from middle class. On top of that she was a model at 15. High fashion jobs in Paris and NYC, television commercials. Spectacular success from birth to when she met me at 29. I don't know how someone with that background could possible not feel a strong sense of entitlement.



Revenge, retribution, vengeance, justice, these are things I want and am working on for the OM.

Regret and remorse are all I want from her. Lack of forgiveness, lack of respect, making it clear to her that what she wants is no longer important to me, failing to abide by her wishes with respect to the irreversible thing, these will bring remorse and regret. I think. If not, well I still want these things for myself. For my own self respect.
You mentioned that two years ago she actually took steps and showed you with her actions that you were now the Plan A for her from that time onward. I didn't read much of your previous threads, but if the affair started sometime in 2010-2012 then does it mean that she needed seven to eight years of IC to realize that you need to be her Plan A? This just boggles my mind.

I have noticed that some attractive people are not good at interacting with people and treating others well. Doors are opened for them with just a smile and they get pretty much what they want by just asking. They tend to form friendships that are usually shallow. All This hinders them from developing crucial interpersonal skills needed to interact with others well and develop deeper relationship bonds. Not an excuse, just an observation.

Because of the preferential treatment she received while growing up and during her profession, there weren't that many instances of conflict in her life and as such it does not look like she has developed good conflict resolution skills.

By doing the irreversible thing, you showed to her that you are serious about your intentions. By showing her that, you effectively placed the proverbial ball in her court, indicating that the next move is hers. However that being said, I TRULY believe that it is in your best interests not to rock the boat and keep the ball in her court as long as possible, even up to the day one of you passes away (due to natural causes hopefully). By doing what you did you took the control of the relationship in your hands and hopefully she now realizes how much you are prioritizing her i.e. her position in your life. After everything is said and done, she is still the mother of your children. It looks like She did her part very well in raising your kids. Also, in the mean time since the D-Day, she has treated you well (for the most part). So, I don't think there's any reason to treat her poorly and I don't think there's any reason to stop the charade at this point. Considering all this I think it's always a good idea to treat her well. She now knows that it's a charade, but that should not prevent you from doubling down on the charade.

You mentioned that she grew up in a wealthy family and then was working as a model since her teen years. So, How much ever attractive she is, should she go out into the dating market, it's likely going to be a brutal (at least not easy) experience for her.

I apologize for all the judgemental things I'm about to say here. More likely than not people have the tendency to just hit it and quit it. Also, at her age, men are usually reluctant to get married again. If it comes to light the reasons why her marriage broke down, then people are just going to consider as just an option for a casual relationship. So as time goes on, she's going to experience more and more doors being closed for her. And that could be a traumatic experience, considering the sheltered life she has lived so far.

This reminds me, somehow I came across a link of some info about the dentist. I think the dentist looks like a toad. I just do not understand what she saw in him. Is it his massive third leg? his silver tongue? or his moneybags? because I can't quite envision him having a good personality, enough to attract a married woman who knows that he's a married man. I think this itself was astoundingly stupid. I mean what was she (an attractive married woman with kids) looking to have an affair with a married toad? I mean after she spent his money, she would still need to put out for him and that could be a traumatic experience for her, even though the money is nice. As a goal, I'd suggest to make sure to grab the toad testicles in a red hot vice and then squeeze slowly. There's really no point in singing Kumbhaya around the campfire with him, unless of course you happen to have him locked in a vice as previously mentioned.

Anyway, I'll stop rambling. I think that at this point I'm just preaching to the choir here.
 

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So far you were living in the relationship knowing that you were her Plan B and she was your Plan A.

I think by doing the irreversible thing, she'll continue living, knowing that she's now your Plan B when she chose to make you her Plan A.

I think at this point, finesse and diplomacy is very much needed going forward and for you not to go nuclear on her @$$.
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
All good points and good advice. Some comments and answers:

Her I.C. was pointless till she found the right person. Her father being a physiatrist meant that she could manipulate most I.C. into telling her just what she wanted to hear.

Shallow friendships, yes. Family and dogs, deeper.

"Don't rock the boat," good plan. Better than seeking remorse from her by pointless bad behavior on my part. When there is a point that causes conflict, well then so be it but not over pointless things just to make her feel regret.

If she goes on the market she will be fine. I see guys looking at her. I know she will be more than ok. I know most would be pumped and dumped and she's not street smart enough to avoid that entirely but I'd bet after two or three guys she will land exactly what she wants and it will be till death do they part.

She was just really foolish with the MM. She had never thought or heard about what happens to women that get mixed up with an MM.

It was his money. He made as much as her father. Top 0.1 percent. And there was no way he would have ever run out of or even low on money. And he was charismatic. A player. A true con man.

Justice for the toad is my Plan A. He's a predator that violated serious rules of professional conduct. Not just with her either. It is just a matter of time now. Justice will be served. Cold. He violated the wrong MW this time.

The irreversible thing is obviously more important to me than her. So maybe she's Plan C. If she's lucky.

Funny thing, before she changed, when we would break from the Charade for a bit, during conflict, I'd say, "I know I'm just your Pan B!" She'd say "Not even Plan B!" How things have change. Tables turned.
 

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WOW what a ****ty thing to say to you -- I am surprised that you bothered to stick with the Charade as long as you did...
 

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He violated the wrong MW this time.
He violated your sense of ownership. I highly doubt your wife felt like she had been violated. Afterall, she kept trying to be in his orbit.

You can keep running your fantasy of revenge and retribution through your mind; but, you will always be in the same position you are in because that's where you want to be. You let fear control you. Fear of change causes your anxiety. It looks like a case of better the devil you know than the one you don't.
 

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180,

You have been dealing with an extremely high level of disrespect for such an incredible amount of time!!!! I think she is sticking around because she knows what her market value is if the charade ever ended!!!! It is not nearly as high as you think it is.

I agree with you that there will be multiple occasions when her potential white knights will charm her, wine her, and dine her just to get into her panties, and once they tire of her, or she is no longer giving them 100%, they will move on to the next worn gold digger, or go for a newer model.

stay strong!!
Can’t wait to hear about justice falling on Dr. Douchebag!
 

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Not even Plan B!
Stop the f'n presses. Say no f'n more. THIS is what fuels 180's departure. For those on this thread who have wondered out loud how or why 180 is removing himself after all these years, the four words in quotes is the crown jewel that drives "The Charade". Look no further or deeper than herein.

The statement itself has an eternal shelf life in 180 of which he has drawn strength, will and conviction from. Time elapsed is insignificant in that it's not when his wife delivered it. It's that she actually did so and the delivery was conveyed in such a way that misinterpretation or mistaken word use was impossible.
 
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