Sexual touching of ANY sort, passionate kissing are all physical cheating in my book. Your wife's limited definition of cheating to vaginal intercourse would have me very concerned about our relationship.
The Definition of Cheating
I'm not delving deeply into the vaguaries of an EA. The difference I seem to get in a non-sexual EA is that if the spouse is offended, it's over the line. Otherwise the gray line between 'best friend' and 'confidant' can smude into 'emotional partner'.
But I had a rather frank discussion with my wife about what exactly constitutes cheating. Granted, we are from different cultures (I'm American), so that may have something to do with it. But other people (including ex Presidents) may have alternate definitions.
When asked about what is cheating, she said vaginal intercourse. This lead to the obvious question. To her, oral sex FROM someone wasn't cheating per se. It was essentially rubbing one out with someone else.
Now, when she saw my expression, she quite wisely said "But I can see it would be cheating to YOU, so it's off the table."
What are your personal boundaries and how might they be different from the norm? Do I even know what a norm is?
For me, sexual touching under clothes is cheating. None self induced, extramarital orgasms are cheating (though I'm a bit diffident on lap dances...not that I ever had one)
Heck, for some people, a passionate kiss is cheating (I would certainly have a problem with my wife kissing some guy...but I'm not sure I'd sign papers over it.)
That leads to the next question: Which are 'fill out the papers RIGHT NOW' offenses and "Lucy, you got some splaining to do!" actions?
Since this thread has a lot of BS, I expect a lot of fire on the question and huge bright lines. That's fine, but I'd like some rationales behind it as well.
But I had a rather frank discussion with my wife about what exactly constitutes cheating. Granted, we are from different cultures (I'm American), so that may have something to do with it. But other people (including ex Presidents) may have alternate definitions.
When asked about what is cheating, she said vaginal intercourse. This lead to the obvious question. To her, oral sex FROM someone wasn't cheating per se. It was essentially rubbing one out with someone else.
Now, when she saw my expression, she quite wisely said "But I can see it would be cheating to YOU, so it's off the table."
What are your personal boundaries and how might they be different from the norm? Do I even know what a norm is?
For me, sexual touching under clothes is cheating. None self induced, extramarital orgasms are cheating (though I'm a bit diffident on lap dances...not that I ever had one)
Heck, for some people, a passionate kiss is cheating (I would certainly have a problem with my wife kissing some guy...but I'm not sure I'd sign papers over it.)
That leads to the next question: Which are 'fill out the papers RIGHT NOW' offenses and "Lucy, you got some splaining to do!" actions?
Since this thread has a lot of BS, I expect a lot of fire on the question and huge bright lines. That's fine, but I'd like some rationales behind it as well.
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She was speaking mostly to me, but you bring up a salient point. She has, heretofore, avoided all men besides myself in any intimate conversations...as far as I know.
This is a product of her brother's teaching about men. A husband rubbing one out with a ***** orally is not the cause for concern that loving a 'decent' girl would be.
This is a product of her brother's teaching about men. A husband rubbing one out with a ***** orally is not the cause for concern that loving a 'decent' girl would be.
Mine had grown pretty broad. If you are investing an inordinate amount of time, energy, and attention to someone or something, at the expense of your primary relationship, it is inappropriate at the least. If you feel the need to hide it from your partner, or lie in any way, including by omission, then you have very likely crossed the line to cheating. If you are building intimacy outside the primary relationship, you are cheating. If you are sharing intimate details of your marriage with a 3rd party who is not a professional therapist, you are likely compromising the trust of your partner.
like I said, my definition is pretty broad. but I view it as a continuum.
like I said, my definition is pretty broad. but I view it as a continuum.
So how do you view a man who goes out most weekends with his male buds for sports or fishing?
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If his wife hates it, if she feels ignored and neglected because of it, then I could see that as on my continuum , for sure. He is placing a higher value on the relationships with his buddies, than on his relationship with his wife.
Same for a gaming addict, or a workaholic. Shoot, in my case, about 6 weeks before d day I was volunteering for a music festival in our city. Things were so hostile at home, and I was being appreciated for my volunteering, so I spent as much of my free time there as I could. At one point I was washing dishes for the kitchen for a total of 20 hours (its a big festival, the kitchen feeds 2200 volunteers for 4 days), and my wife who has a different volunteer job, said there were dishes at home that could be washed. The thought that crossed my mind was 'Yes, but I don't WANT to wash those ones, I don't WANT to spend time there, They actually appreciate me here.' It hit me later that I was effectively cheating with the festival. Granted it is way less personal, very much more socially acceptable, but I was taking time and energy that my family needed and giving it away elsewhere for selfish reasons. I was checking out of the marriage. I view that as cheating. Turns out she was too at the time, with an individual man, that partly explains the level of frostiness at home, but it does not justify my own actions.
Same for a gaming addict, or a workaholic. Shoot, in my case, about 6 weeks before d day I was volunteering for a music festival in our city. Things were so hostile at home, and I was being appreciated for my volunteering, so I spent as much of my free time there as I could. At one point I was washing dishes for the kitchen for a total of 20 hours (its a big festival, the kitchen feeds 2200 volunteers for 4 days), and my wife who has a different volunteer job, said there were dishes at home that could be washed. The thought that crossed my mind was 'Yes, but I don't WANT to wash those ones, I don't WANT to spend time there, They actually appreciate me here.' It hit me later that I was effectively cheating with the festival. Granted it is way less personal, very much more socially acceptable, but I was taking time and energy that my family needed and giving it away elsewhere for selfish reasons. I was checking out of the marriage. I view that as cheating. Turns out she was too at the time, with an individual man, that partly explains the level of frostiness at home, but it does not justify my own actions.
My definition is probably pretty standard. If you are doing something that you wouldn't do in front if your spouse, and it's with a member of the opposite sex (or same if that be the case), then it's probably a form of cheating.
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:iagree::iagree:My definition is probably pretty standard. If you are doing something that you wouldn't do in front if your spouse, and it's with a member of the opposite sex (or same if that be the case), then it's probably a form of cheating.
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If it's something you don't want your spouse to see/witness/participate in/know about, then you shouldn't be doing it. If it takes away from the time you should be sharing with your spouse, then you shouldn't be doing it.
I wouldn't necessarily say hunting trips are cheating...unless there's something going on between the people on the trips. Same with fishing and sporting events. that said, I'd have a problem with my husband doing such things every weekend.
My definition is pretty stringent. Any time you give less than 100% of your AFFECTION or LOYALTY to your spouse...you are cheating. They are due 100%.
So that means giving some of your emotional affection to some other person = cheating. Giving some of your physical affection to some other person = cheating. Giving some of your loyalty to some other person = cheating.
As far as "instantly file today" vs. "Lucy you got some 'splaining to do" you know what? I don't play that game or try to make rules along the lines of "you can go THIS FAR and after this, it's an affair" because the way I see it, either you are FAITHFUL in your heart, soul and mind to your spouse...or you are UNFAITHFUL.
I have known people who were unfaithful and they pulled their heads out their behinds and began acting faithful...and I'm one of them!! So even when someone is unfaithful, I do extend the same grace that was extended to me and give the chance for them to do the right thing. But that gracious offer is not unending and does have limits--namely being faithful 100%, no begging for little teeny bits of unfaithfulness to be allowed.
So that means giving some of your emotional affection to some other person = cheating. Giving some of your physical affection to some other person = cheating. Giving some of your loyalty to some other person = cheating.
As far as "instantly file today" vs. "Lucy you got some 'splaining to do" you know what? I don't play that game or try to make rules along the lines of "you can go THIS FAR and after this, it's an affair" because the way I see it, either you are FAITHFUL in your heart, soul and mind to your spouse...or you are UNFAITHFUL.
I have known people who were unfaithful and they pulled their heads out their behinds and began acting faithful...and I'm one of them!! So even when someone is unfaithful, I do extend the same grace that was extended to me and give the chance for them to do the right thing. But that gracious offer is not unending and does have limits--namely being faithful 100%, no begging for little teeny bits of unfaithfulness to be allowed.
Withholding sex is also cheating. When I signed up to play, the rules mentioned monogamy not celibacy.
I'd like to hear more about why you feel that way.Withholding sex is also cheating. When I signed up to play, the rules mentioned monogamy not celibacy.
It's pretty obvious. If you, the spouse are insisting on a sexual monopoly with me and my only legal and moral outlet is you, then YOU have a certain obligation to provide those services.I'd like to hear more about why you feel that way.
If you do not, you are taking the vows in a totally different direction because YOU get to decide if I am celibate or not without discussing the situation with me. That is cheating ME out of a sex life.
And since it's my body, it should have been my decision.
This is not to say that the partner owes sex to the other any time all the time. But a certain effort and understanding is necessary. This assumes there is no medical issues. But a failure to TRY to address medical issues is also a problem.
Very well said.My definition is probably pretty standard. If you are doing something that you wouldn't do in front if your spouse, and it's with a member of the opposite sex (or same if that be the case), then it's probably a form of cheating.
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Cheating is not just about penis and vagina.
Perfect. This nails it. Precisely.My definition is probably pretty standard. If you are doing something that you wouldn't do in front if your spouse, and it's with a member of the opposite sex (or same if that be the case), then it's probably a form of cheating.
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See, I disagree, but its kind of semantic, because there are cases where the relationship breaks down so far that the W can't even be bothered to hide their activity from the B. But we aren't really talking about that sort of in you face, completely obvious case. We're more likely talking about those situations where the infidelity slowly edges it's way in, through a crack in the boundary of the relationship.
If what you are doing you either:
Wouldn't want your spouse to do or know about
Or
You would act/do something different if your spouse was right next to you watching you.
Then you're cheating.
Wouldn't want your spouse to do or know about
Or
You would act/do something different if your spouse was right next to you watching you.
Then you're cheating.
The reason this definition works, is that it works whether the relationship is physical, or not.If what you are doing you either:
Wouldn't want your spouse to do or know about
Or
You would act/do something different if your spouse was right next to you watching you.
Then you're cheating.
There are times where the betrayal is occurring with some knowledge from the loyal spouse, but the truth in those cases is that the loyal spouse is NOT privvy to what is being said between the two people the rest of the time and they would NOT like it if they knew the truth.
Just to beat a dead horse: that standard of 'what the loyal spouse is okay with = friend / confidant and not an emotional affair' is cute and all, but the determining factor of 'what the loyal spouse is okay with' rests entirely on whether they know the FULL scope of the relationship, or not. 'Or not' being the rule of the day. So it's safe to say, this is a standard that lives on in the minds of those who engage in inappropriate relationships with sexually attractive people.
And it's the one I hold myself, and my wife to.
I consider everything from vaginal intercourse right down to flirting cheating.
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