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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi - this is my first post. I’m still reeling from what seemed like yesterday but I guess it’s been a month now but I’m dealing with a double betrayal and a sticky situation that I’m not sure how to navigate.
What I’m about to say in no means gives my husband an out or makes excuses for what he chose to do. I am not planning on leaving him so I’m putting that out their now.
I apologize in advance for the very long post but it’s the first time I’ve had to really get it out.

My husband and I have been together for over 9 years and coming up on 7 years of marriage.
Both of us from previous marriages and both have had our share of nightmares from our past. We both took many many years to just be single before we met by accident. Neither of us with the intention to be in a relationship. But we both kind of got struck by lightening and fell in love. He wanted to get married months after we met and I wanted to just wait it out to be sure, because to say my life wasn’t filled with endless drama would be an understatement. We ended up getting married two years later.
Our odds were so stacked against us but we knew we were meant to be.
In those 7 years we have a lot of things that really led up to where we are today. Lost sight of us. We stopped listening to each other and then communication, respect and lack of intimacy followed. I take as much responsibility for that as he does. I have three girls and he doesn’t have children but he took mine on and never looked back. He’s been an excellent father to them and even though we lost our way, that always remained. We knew we loved each other but years of being ignored and overlooked from each of us and being stubborn - we never figured out how to dig ourselves out. So we accepted it and we became complacent.
The difference is, I never wavered. Although I had the chance often, I’m very loyalty. I come out of a broken messed up family and then into an awful previous marriage so I could never fathom doing that to the person I loved. Just not in my DNA.
Our youngest daughter is 10. She’s had her best friend since kindergarten but it’s always remained in school until lock down happened. They went to online schooling and to get my kid from going crazy, I reached out to the girls mom and asked if we could schedule Covid play dates, as we were all working from home
and had similar situations where we took care of our older parents. I didn’t know much about the family but as we started to do the back and forth I got to know the mom and we became fast friends. Her and her husband have been together since high school and she became a mom at 16. They have been married over 20 years and now have three girls. Same age as my three. After several months, it was apparent that we had to get the husbands together because they both needed friends and they both were so similar. I invited them over in October and we all just hit it off and our girls were all super happy. Soon after my father became very very ill and i had to fly out and care for him. What was supposed to be a week ended up a month. I continued to have my husband do drop off’s and pick ups while I was gone. When I returned, if we just kind of continued the pattern as it was much easier from his work to go pick up my daughter or her friend since it was literally just down the road from his office.
Friends mom and I started planning more family time all together. The mom and I had more personal conversations- she asked me more about my marriage and she shared her troubles and I didn’t think much about it.
Rolling into February 2021 - we had game night and my husband said: my wife is super territorial and protective. If she catches anyone flirting or touching me, she gets crazy. Girls Mom inquires an example and my husband gave a few. We all laughed about it and I just said: “what’s mine is mine. You don’t touch my husband.” I’m not sure why that particular conversation stuck with me so hard but I believe it’s because it was almost a warning to the other mom and I started having a weird gut reaction to it - struck a chord in me.
I’m a hawk. You don’t ever touch my husband. Yes you can hug him but make it brief and don’t linger. Don’t call him babe or honey. He’s not yours to call that. So yes, I’m very protective.
After she was warned however, she chose to ignore it because after the Girls mom would touch him on the shoulder or chest when she laughed. I kind of chalked it off as that’s how she is excuse. Very fun, energetic and bubbly. However - I kept it in my back pocket. Weeks went by and we started making more plans. I decided to ask her if she wanted to do a mom and BFF camping trip mid-March with just my one daughter and her best friend.
She was all for it. On the camping trip we bonded more. She told me I was becoming one of her best friends. She confided in me more about her marriage and I sympathized because I was going through similar situation. She told me she was considering divorce and I just listened. She asked me a lot about my husband and I told her that we’ve had our problems but that I loved him so much and at the end of the day he was my world. That we had things to work through and that getting their was a challenge but worth it. Her marriage opened my eyes to where I didn’t want to be. She actually made me realize so much. And yet the two days conversations with her just didn’t stick well with me. I can’t pin point it but it was the gut instinct I still had about her not heeding the advice of touching my husband. Call it petty or radar but I just kept thinking they wouldn’t be that stupid.
We had a great overall camping trip and decided to do one big family one a month later.
When we got home she told me her husband was super on board for camping. By then both husbands were getting super tight and always joking and talking. Girls mom told me that we should begin to plan and come over for game night the following weekend. I wasn’t really up for it, wanted to stay home but my husband was all for it, so I decided not to be a stick in the mud.
We get their that night and my husband isn’t much of a drinker but decided to tie one on.
The four of us ate dinner at their place and the two guys sat together and we both sat across from our husbands. Her husband wasn’t drinking, I was being careful not to drink much but both my husband and her started drinking quite a lot. She kept trying to fill up my glass but I was not really in the mood and my gut told me no. As we got the cards out, she was still sitting next to me and she suddenly said: Wow - I can really see your cards!!!! I don’t want to be seeing your cards so I’m going to move” and she moved across from me between my husband and hers. So the scene was me, my husband, her and her husband. I thought it was super odd because I wasn’t showing my cards at all and it really gnawed on me. As the evening progressed she started touching my husband to often. They were drinking heavily by now and it was super obvious something was up. He then for a brief moment had his hand around her on her hip during a break. When we sat back down - she was practically in his lap. Then it got weird. The husband was facing them where he could see everything going on and he wasn’t drinking. I was across but couldn’t see what was happening under the table but got suspicious that hands were not where they should be. I was confused as her husband said nothing and I was just feeling as if I was being crazy. My husband would lean in and kiss me and tell me he loved me (yea that sucked) but their hands were on each other and playing footsies. I “dropped” my cards and that’s when I saw enough. I immediately sprung out of my chair and said we had to go. I was out of their like a flash. Their kids were their but mine was with my ex. I was still confused by her husbands none reaction to it all as he was watching it all happen next to him sober and didn’t want to cause a scene with the children around.
My husband drunk as a skunk in the car and I just completely freaked out on him. He didn’t deny it one bit. Needless to say we came home and the stuff hit the fan. He then blurted out blame on me and of course became defiant. It wasn’t until the next day or two that after he sobered up, it alllll came out. They had an emotional affair since beginning of February that started with the pick ups and drop off’s. Texts became emails - Both of them feeding off their sexual fantasies and needs that weren’t being met. Bashing her husband and I for not being the partners they need. Etc etc
I know it never went to them actually acting it out and that they were still in a stage of just fantasy but haven’t pulled the trigger. She may have but my husband was still to scared to go their literally. Husband dis say that it would have come to that eventually as it was getting to the “what if” point of their conversations.

The last four weeks have been super emotional for me. I feel my husband and I met a tipping point that made us realize how miserable and unhappy we’ve been by our own stubborn actions that we both take complete responsibility for. Not him cheating - that’s on him but it took both for us to get where we were. It made us realize so much but also that we truly still love each other. It doesn’t take away all the hurt and distrust I feel among all the other emotional roller coaster feelings but we know that we want to fight for us before we give up.
I never saw the communication between them as he deleted as he went so he knew what he was doing. He did reach out to her the next day after and told her I found out. She knew I was watching because she acted so dumb. At first she was like: Huh? Then when husband spelled it out that I saw everything, she wrote back. “what the hell? My husband didn’t mind.”
Then he said I knew about all the messages in detail and that he was breaking all contact and chooses me. And she didn’t flinch. She just said “of course you choose her. I’m not planning on leaving my husband either”
That was how it was left between them.
She knew I never saw those emails so she continued to act innocent because I did text them both together and made things a 100% clear that if they so much as cross each other again they will get outed to everyone including our children. Her response was so innocent on how some dumb messages ruined our friendship, blah blah blah. But it was more then that. She contacted my husband while I was in the car next to her and then she straight up messed with him in front of my face. Then acts like she remembers nothing and it wasn’t a big deal.
Of course you can imagine the situation now. I have to deal with her because I don’t want to break a wonderful and long friendship these two little ones have because their parents chose to make a seriously bad choice. Now I’m the one stuck with her mom and scheduling play dates. It’s killing me. Mostly because she’s so brazen she drops her off at my door and starts chatting with me as if we were bff’s. I’m trying to be super business and she’s always putting stupid jokes and acting like nothing ever happened. I can’t stand it and I don’t know what to do. I know what I should do, but I can’t get myself to separate the girls.
I so want to seriously confront her with words in a way that would knock her senseless but I don’t want to give her that satisfaction.
My husband is an idiot - not going to sugar coat that one bit. We have tons to work through and the trust is out the window. Their is no way but to try and trust him because if he wants to see her their a million ways they can do it. I can set boundless and a leash but at the end of the day I can’t keep track a 100%. Especially not in this day and age. That whole process is a category of its own, but constantly reminded because I have to deal with her is killing me. She has no remorse. Obviously her husband doesn’t care or he’s one of “those” guys that like to watch. No clue, don’t care. I’m trying to get my daughter to just make some more new friends but those girls are loyal to each other. Every time I have to hear their names or one of them brings up her mom, I want to scream.
 

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You've put yourself in a strait jacket with insisting on not breaking up the little girls and not giving your husband any consequences and being civil to the dingbat with the wannabe cuckold husband. What is it you're looking for with this thread?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
You've put yourself in a strait jacket with insisting on not breaking up the little girls and not giving your husband any consequences and being civil to the dingbat with the wannabe cuckold husband. What is it you're looking for with this thread?
Can you elaborate on what you mean by giving husband consequences? Just want to understand your definition before I respond as we are going through various steps that are important but making him considerably uncomfortable.
 

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The ultimate consequence is divorcing him. And since you have children, to limit your contact with him as about the children and possibly other obligation ie, doing that final tax return; monitoring your children's behavior after a weekend with Dad and so on.
Just remember, counselors and therapists aren't free. And I'm surprised to read that AA has a price. This is going to chip into your wealth.
Since he blames you for his problems, I think you need to go. Have you lost any friends because of him.
 

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First off.. she is not a friend to anybody. That whole mess would be over in my books. What they did right in front of you was down right disrespectful... regardless of their drunkeness. The fact that she had you confide in her during the camping thing makes it even worse and back stabbing.

Second, I feel for the children who are still friends. I would enroll my child(ren) in some after school activities that the other child is not in. Try to widen her friend circle. I would only let them meet in my house with me there.

Get some IC. Perhaps you can figure out some strategies to rebuild trust and communication.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The ultimate consequence is divorcing him. And since you have children, to limit your contact with him as about the children and possibly other obligation ie, doing that final tax return; monitoring your children's behavior after a weekend with Dad and so on.
Just remember, counselors and therapists aren't free. And I'm surprised to read that AA has a price. This is going to chip into your wealth.
Since he blames you for his problems, I think you need to go. Have you lost any friends because of him.
 

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"I don’t want to break a wonderful and long friendship these two little ones have because their parents chose to make a seriously bad choice."

I'm with you here, but I'd be uncomfortable leaving my child with her. She's sneaky. Her kid can stay at your house, but not yours at her house. Compounding matters is you don't have a voice of reason in that household, as she has her husband fitted with a dog collar so to speak. In other words, he's passive and she has either manipulated him to get there or is reinforcing the passivity he brought to the marriage. Either way, she's wearing the pants.

Actually, characterizing her as sneaky doesn't fit. Devious comes to mind, which is a combination of sneaky and sinister. It's a terrible quality to have in one's husband or wife. By the way, I'd hire an expert to undelete those messages or else you'll spend years wondering what happened and growing resentful while doing so. Lastly, the most sinister of all possibilities is one you cannot exclude.

She's cucking her husband with yours. Her husband could be a wanker and a watcher who gets off being humiliated. This type of thing exists in the world and his indifferent response that evening while sober makes me think this is a possibility. Furthermore, your husband initiating discussion about your protective disposition was a reminder warning to her that she can't act like she usually does, ......... being grabby and flirty.

She doesn't respond to these passive aggressive ideas because she's competitive. cocky and doesn't care, hence will take what isn't hers (your husband) and keep her husband under lock and key. This is my worst case scenario for you, but it's not entirely out of left field. The best thing you have going for you is you strike me as a being a Rottweiler and not a Lab. Rot's are nice dogs, but you can't mess with there property or they'll take you out if need be.
 

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I read ChumpLady.com from time to time She once had a letter from the BW regarding a frienship made with her own daughter and the OW's.

Did she have to let this friendship continue. CL unapologetically said no. The reason being that the girls were still at an age that the parents' had to get involved.
 

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@CatOnAHotTinRoof ,

This is actually fairly easy. You speak to the OW one time, and you tell her "Look, lady, as of today our fake friendship is OVER because from February until April you were trying to steal my husband. That's no friend! So stop with your chumminess. I love my child enough to not break HER heart because you are a dumbass, so I'm going to let our children be friends, but you and I and our family are through." Then you dump her out of your life like a cat on a hot tin roof!

Next you have your WH sit down with your daughters and explain to them that you and he, and their friend's mom and dad are choosing to end the family friendship because mom's and dad's should only love each other and their friend's mom tried to be a girlfriend to their own dad--and that he didn't tell her to knock it off and shut her down. That you (their mom) are rightfully mad at her and him for acting like that, and that he (their dad) not only supports you in ending the family friendship, but he also believes it is the right thing to do. And that they will be allowed to stay friends with the other family's kids, but they will no longer be going over there...the other kids will have to come to your house so you are protected from that ever happening again!

Now...you may say "I don't want to tell the kids...blahblahblah" but here's the thing: it is a natural consequence for your WH (their dad) to have to say out loud to his children WHY THAT FRIENDSHIP IS RUINED. It's ruined because of his actions and choices (not because you are being a controlling witch). It is also a natural for the kids to understand why you are suddenly all grouchy toward someone who used to be a good friend. Kids are kids--they understand that it's reasonable for someone to get mad at someone else who betrayed a trust. If you "keep it from them" it will perpetuate the view that you are just being a mean ol' grump and they will blame you...and instead this would be a natural way for your WH to take personal responsibility for what he did AND for the repercussions of HIS ACTIONS.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Let me clarify that his initial reaction was blaming me drunk. Again, no excuses on overall action and behavior - just a statement. Then when he sobered up, he realized the horror. He’s not a drinker at all. As in, he may have one drink every few months so that whole scenario of over drinking was totally out of character for him. Possibly nerves for having us both in the same room. No clue, nor does it matter.
Our oldest daughter knows. He told her, as we agreed she was old enough and that was a tough conversation. Some family know, some friends know but outing it was part of the steps he has to take to stay in this marriage. Some are supportive and some tell me to dump him. It’s across the board.
I’m just on the fence of what to do about the OW.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
"I don’t want to break a wonderful and long friendship these two little ones have because their parents chose to make a seriously bad choice."

I'm with you here, but I'd be uncomfortable leaving my child with her. She's sneaky. Her kid can stay at your house, but not yours at her house. Compounding matters is you don't have a voice of reason in that household, as she has her husband fitted with a dog collar so to speak. In other words, he's passive and she has either manipulated him to get there or is reinforcing the passivity he brought to the marriage. Either way, she's wearing the pants.

Actually, characterizing her as sneaky doesn't fit. Devious comes to mind, which is a combination of sneaky and sinister. It's a terrible quality to have in one's husband or wife. By the way, I'd hire an expert to undelete those messages or else you'll spend years wondering what happened and growing resentful while doing so. Lastly, the most sinister of all possibilities is one you cannot exclude.

She's cucking her husband with yours. Her husband could be a wanker and a watcher who gets off being humiliated. This type of thing exists in the world and his indifferent response that evening while sober makes me think this is a possibility. Furthermore, your husband initiating discussion about your protective disposition was a reminder warning to her that she can't act like she usually does, ......... being grabby and flirty.

She doesn't respond to these passive aggressive ideas because she's competitive. cocky and doesn't care, hence will take what isn't hers (your husband) and keep her husband under lock and key. This is my worst case scenario for you, but it's not entirely out of left field. The best thing you have going for you is you strike me as a being a Rottweiler and not a Lab. Rot's are nice dogs, but you can't mess with there property or they'll take you out if need be.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thank you for your time and thoughts.
He deleted them from FB messenger off his iPad. I’m told that cannot be retrieved when googling several platforms but I have a suspicion that one of you may know how to go about it.
I do want to know. I know everything he only told me and as graphic as it was, I want to see it for myself. True closure to move forward and make a solid decision.
Yes, our 20 was sat down and told everything. That was especially important to me, as she’s 20 and we have been in the process of teaching her things to look out for and red flags. The other two were told that we are working on being a better couple decided to fight for our marriage. That we will be as transparent with them along the way that we see fit but that right now we are working as a team to get through a difficult time and they should not be worried but can come to us for any questions.
As I reiterate - what he did is absolutely no excuse. He did what I wouldn’t dream of because I have to much self respect for myself. But I know the how and why we got where we are today. The more time that goes by, the more he reflects and talks to me about it. Which helps us communicate more then we have in the last 7 years. I’m still navigating and deciding on therapy (single and couples) but I am on the fence and I think I just want to do the work on my own and circle back when I’m feeling more in control.
The OW definitely makes it a challenge and the fact they live so close, same school. I’m already working on different activities for my youngest and opening her circle but she’s like me; loyal. I’ve had the same BFF for over 40 years since 7th grade. I just seriously have to get her off me. As you mentioned her husband, whatever he’s into or not, doesn’t seem to be the right approach. I’m just dying to take her aside and really have it out but I just don’t want to give her that satisfaction.
 

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So here is the issue ...

Not only did your husband have an affair (I doubt it was simply emotional), but he was doing it with impunity, right in front of you, and the other woman's husband. That is some sociopathic, disrespectful stuff right there. Clearly he isn't trustworthy

but ...

you have a 10 year old daughter, and you are on a second marriage. Sure, you can divorce him, but it will gravely impact your children. I don't need to give you the statistics involving kids from broken homes when it comes to high school graduation, college attendance, drug and alcohol abuse, depression, etc. It isn't good

So for practical reasons, the nuclear option may not be on the table. I would sit him down and say "I am willing to try and repair this marriage, but if I even get a vague suspicion you are up to something, I will take you to the cleaners in divorce court. If you ever disrespect me again in front of others, we will see each other in court. I will also tell the girls you ran around on me and wrecked the marriage".

Then compose yourself and move to more positive topics, like what steps you both can take to get the relationship back on track

this guy needs the fear of God put into him. But the children need a father too, so it is a balancing act
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
So here is the issue ...

Not only did your husband have an affair (I doubt it was simply emotional), but he was doing it with impunity, right in front of you, and the other woman's husband. That is some sociopathic, disrespectful stuff right there. Clearly he isn't trustworthy

but ...

you have a 10 year old daughter, and you are on a second marriage. Sure, you can divorce him, but it will gravely impact your children. I don't need to give you the statistics involving kids from broken homes when it comes to high school graduation, college attendance, drug and alcohol abuse, depression, etc. It isn't good

So for practical reasons, the nuclear option may not be on the table. I would sit him down and say "I am willing to try and repair this marriage, but if I even get a vague suspicion you are up to something, I will take you to the cleaners in divorce court. If you ever disrespect me again in front of others, we will see each other in court. I will also tell the girls you ran around on me and wrecked the marriage".

Then compose yourself and move to more positive topics, like what steps you both can take to get the relationship back on track

this guy needs the fear of God put into him. But the children need a father too, so it is a balancing act
I have a lengthy list of consequences that I’ve been checking off after all of this. I already drew up the papers from my girlfriend whose a paralegal that if anything else comes out after this or another slightest indiscretion, that the house will go entirely to me, the debts outside of mortgage to him and I will ruin him. He had the option to completely come clean, full disclosure and walk out the door. Now tho, he’s decided to stay, so anything is full game now. We agreed to the terms and we will be signing next week.
 

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I have a lengthy list of consequences that I’ve been checking off after all of this. I already drew up the papers from my girlfriend whose a paralegal that if anything else comes out after this or another slightest indiscretion, that the house will go entirely to me, the debts outside of mortgage to him and I will ruin him. He had the option to completely come clean, full disclosure and walk out the door. Now tho, he’s decided to stay, so anything is full game now. We agreed to the terms and we will be signing next week.
signing divorce documents? Or some kind of agreement?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Going forward, don’t trust him as completely as you did before you knew what he was capable of. That’s asking for trouble.
Made him take off his wedding ring and took off mine. Obviously it didn’t matter to him when he was doing what he did. Therefore he needs to earn mine back on to. He will also be out of pocket if he wants to earn it and put one back on me. Sounds childish but whatever helps me. Ring or no ring at this point won’t make a difference and every time I looked at it, it made me furious.
 
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