[Adelais]

Easier said than done. If you haven't been in this position, you don't understand.



Pot, alcohol, Xanax, opiod pills that I know of



He has no phone, no door on his room, no allowance, no car, I was going to give him my car but I revoked that when he stole it to joyride. He gets nothing from us, no TV, no spending cash, literally nothing. He has nothing left to lose. He sits in a bedroom with no door and just a bed and dresser. As we separate I'm taking his room and he'll sleep on a twin bed in the hallway.

Done that, they just release him that day, I've taken him to the emergency room for threatening suicide twice.

At 16 there are no state programs anymore, you're on your own. There is no assistance unless you have 30K readily available. 30 years ago I would take him out back and beat the **** out of him until he learned some respect. Can't do that now. The kid has had every privilege imaginable, he would rather fight and lose everything than do even 1 thing we say. You THINK you understand, but you have no idea. This is not "fixable" by some manly authoritative decree. The kid is mentally ill.

Your son sounds like mine was at 16. I feel for you. When that was going on in my house it was like living a nightmare.

In our state, if someone threatened suicide they had to be taken to an inpatient clinic and watched for 3 days. If they are stable and just messing with you, they won't do that again, because it is boring and "stupid" in there. (Our son had to go to one of those places after he threatened my husband and I, saying "Someone is going to die." When we called the police, he said he was talking about himself. The police called his bluff and said that whether anyone threatened someone else or themself, he was required by law to get them evaluated. He was bored in the inpatient ward, had his shoes, belt, shoelaces etc. taken away and was watched for 3 days. All he did was read. He was bored. He never threatened anyone again. LOL)

While he is getting sober, and even if he doesn't get sober, you will have to learn some new parenting skills, so you can get your sanity back.

LOVE AND LOGIC is an amazing set of parenting skills, in all circumstances that I wish I had learned when my children were babies. Oh my gosh! It helps the parent detach and lets the children learn natural consequences to their actions. They teach you phrases, techniques, and loads of ideas for you to get your sanity and personal power in your own life back.

They offer classes all over the country, and have 3 day conferences too, if you can afford it. The regular classes last 6 weeks, for an hour or two once a week, with a trainer, a workbook, a video, and other parents in your same boat. They cost $100 or less. Once in a while you might find one that is free (paid for by a church) and is an all day seminar. It is a good way to get your feet wet.

Check your library for the CD's or DVD's as a starter. There are also books.

Here is a link to find a trainer and classes in your area.

https://www.loveandlogic.com/facilitators/search

Those classes are so amazing, my husband and I said we are going to buy them for our children when they start their own families. Counties offer them (require them) for foster parents, so they don't resort to physical punishment (which is illegal for foster parents.)

We were told by a social worker at the time that the frontal lobe of males finishes developing between the ages of 22 to 24. The frontal lobe is the "executor" part of the brain that tells a person, "This is a good idea" or "This is a bad idea." They literally are missing part of their brain until the frontal lobe is developed! I literally prayed to God that God would do a miracle on our son and develop his frontal lobe faster than normal. Our prayer was answered!

Our son is 22 now, and he is no longer angry. He is off all drugs, and is a productive citizen. He got off drugs on his own, because he met and knew a lot of people on drugs, and saw how stupid and damaged they were, and saw the stupid things they would do for a high. He didn't want to turn into that.

He comes over to our house all the time, tells us he loves us, hugs us, etc. He is mad though, because his stint at the psych ward when he was 16 cost him the freedom to ever own a weapon. He will have to borrow one from a friend (or us) if he ever wants to hunt or do target practice. Not a huge price, but a price. He had to know that he could not threaten us. (We were very scared of him at the time.)

There is hope. Don't give up. You also may have to do "tough love" and let your son fall flat on his face, by telling him that he needs to find a job and another place to live when he is of legal age, because you will not tolerate his behavior in your home anymore. He has to know that he can't abuse you in your own home.

Our son moved out at 17, 1 year before it was legal. He wanted to, and we let him, because we had 3 other children who were living in hell with us. We needed our home life back. When he moved out he went nuts with drugs and alcohol, "having fun" for a while. But when all his belongings were stolen while he was spending days at another friend's house, and his "friends" rubbed oregano oil on his face while he was passed out (and other things like that) he stopped having so much fun. It took things like that to teach him that his family love him more than his friends do.

I hope I didn't ramble, but that I said some things that are helpful to you.

You'll get through this. So will your son.

 

[sandcastle]

Some come out on the other end and some do not.

For some- "ToughLove" further fuels their rage against the parent who is upfront and Center about implementing that tactic.

"BOOT CAMP"- same rage.

There are terrific parents who can not do a damn thing to "Save" their child.

 

[Adelais]

I'm praying to God he joins the military, but somehow in his narcissistic little mind he thinks he's above being enlisted in the military. Like somehow the material wealth and job status I've earned through a lifetime of hard work has rained down upon him, and enlisting in the military is for the lowly people. He has middling grades at best, quit all sports, no activities, no skill-set. He's going nowhere. And in this **** state I can't kick his ungrateful ass to the curb until he's 21 years old. He can basically just come and go, doing drugs, telling his mother to **** off, and there is not a thing we can do about it until he's 21. It's crazy.

I'm so sorry. I know exactly how you feel, but in our state the age is 18. Our son once called me the longest list of cuss words that I didn't even know went together to make sense. Neither my husband nor I cuss. Once I picked our son up at our local Walmart for shoplifting, and the police officer gave me permission to slap him, and he told my son he was a punk. The officer told the other officer "That is a good mother" when I tore our son's stupid looking "wife beater" tee shirt off him and told him to button his shirt, pull up his pants and tighten his belt. The officer took me outside, gave me his card, and said that I needed to stand up to my son more, and not let him run our home. He said that if he ever tried to complain that he was being "abused" that I needed to hand him the officer's card and tell him to "Call Officer Adam, and ask him if he is being abused." He knew what Officer Adam thought of him already!! I actually did that once when my son got angry I slapped him in the face for calling me a string of nasty names. I told him that Officer Adam told me to not put up with his foul mouth and disrespect anymore. While I was very sad and afraid when he moved out, I was relieved to not have the insanity in the home. Even or other children were relieved when he moved out.

You really do need to speak with a lawyer to find out your legal rights and responsibilities. When our son was acting like your son all I thought about was what stupid thing he might do that WE would be charged with because he was a minor. When he moved out at 17, my husband made him sign a paper he had typed up that said he agreed to not drink, use drugs, etc. and would follow all laws. Of course he signed it, because he wanted to move out and have the freedom to do all those things with no one watching. It was hard not knowing if he was dead or alive most of the time, but there was also a strange peace in the home without all the chaos he caused.

Everything that sandcastle says is true. Your son is in a delusional state and not in touch with reality. Only being off drugs, combined with physical (brain) and emotional maturity combined with life experience are going to snap him out of it. It is going to take time and tough love on your part.

loveandlogic classes will help you get some sanity and control over your own life.

 

[Adelais]

Just so you know...the slapping I did was not part of loveandlogic. I hadn't heard of loveandlogic at that time. If I had been using loveandlogic techniques our son may have been a very different person at 16 and I would have done something more effective to his personal growth than slap him. Slapping him was wrong, and I have apologized to him now that he is older and I am wiser.

But without effective tools used by the parents, it seems that out of control teenagers run the home, and the parents are desperate to get back control of their household using whatever means is familiar to them (from their own childhood?)

 

[Satya]

Has he been formally diagnosed with ODD?
I'm sorry if you've already addressed that.

 

[Omego]

I think you need to start with step one -- that would be getting him sober. As he's completely uncontrollable, I would follow the advice of the poster who said to let him deal with the consequences of his actions.
16 is really young. He can come through this. Keep in mind that he must be absolutely miserable but unable to deal with his emotions.
Enforce the 3 rules you set out. If he does anything illegal, call the police.
Is there anyway to avoid separating from your wife? You need to be a united front to deal with this child. Separating will only add to your problems and create more instability for your son.

Hang in there. This can work out. He's still young.

 

[sandcastle]

Has he been formally diagnosed with ODD?
I'm sorry if you've already addressed that.

The kid refuses to be diagnosed.


The kid is not going to get labeled anything willingly-

Smart move on his part.

 

[sandcastle]

I think you need to start with step one -- that would be getting him sober. As he's completely uncontrollable, I would follow the advice of the poster who said to let him deal with the consequences of his actions.
16 is really young. He can come through this. Keep in mind that he must be absolutely miserable but unable to deal with his emotions.
Enforce the 3 rules you set out. If he does anything illegal, call the police.
Is there anyway to avoid separating from your wife? You need to be a united front to deal with this child. Separating will only add to your problems and create more instability for your son.

Hang in there. This can work out. He's still young.

The kid has already created the Grand Canyon between parents.

He is a user- Xanax oxy, pot, booze and That is the least the OP knows about.

Maybe ketamine, heroin, Ecstasy , spice etcetera .
He is NOT miserable- his Father is.
There are no consequences to ANY of his actions if he is smart enough to stay under the radar. Which he probably is. And has been thus far.

 

[Satya]

The kid refuses to be diagnosed.


The kid is not going to get labeled anything willingly-

Smart move on his part.

It's not about giving him a label.
It's about knowing more about what he may actually have, to better educate the parents on what steps they can take vs those they can't possibly hope to take.

True ODD cannot be "handled" at all in most cases, even by professionals, not without knowing the seriousness or even which medications work. And as you pointed out, the patient is rather defiant in general, so even getting to that point is a major stretch.

 

[sandcastle]

It's not about giving him a label.
It's about knowing more about what he may actually have, to better educate the parents on what steps they can take vs those they can't possibly hope to take.

True ODD cannot be "handled" at all in most cases, even by professionals, not without knowing the seriousness or even which medications work. And as you pointed out, the patient is rather defiant in general, so even getting to that point is a major stretch.

The OP stated that the kid will not go to a Shrink.

Why?

Because the kid is smart enough not to get labeled.

By the Shrink.

To be used against him in a Court of Law.

This kid is really smart if the OP is to be believed and telling the truth.

 

[Satya]

His own unlawful actions can be used against him in a court of law.

He doesn't necessarily need a diagnosis at all.

And if anything, a real diagnosis might help to keep him out of jail whilst simultaneously mandating the treatment he might need.

I don't think we're talking at cross purposes here, but I do not believe it's at all smart of the young man to refuse help that could potentially keep him out of prison.


Eta: 16 is a short hop to 18 and then 21 is around the corner. I don't think there's much time to try and help him, but at least the OP and his wife could do their best.

 

[sandcastle]

His own unlawful actions can be used against him in a court of law.

He doesn't necessarily need a diagnosis at all.

And if anything, a real diagnosis might help to keep him out of jail whilst simultaneously mandating the treatment he might need.

I don't think we're talking at cross purposes here, but I do not believe it's at all smart of the young man to refuse help that could potentially keep him out of prison.


Eta: 16 is a short hop to 18 and then 21 is around the corner. I don't think there's much time to try and help him, but at least the OP and his wife could do their best.

His " own unlawful actions " against whom?

His parents- they are screwed unless he murders them or attempts to. Read my earlier posts about parent/child conflicts and law enforcement.

If he is diagnosed with ANY Cluster B and threatens his parents- kiddo is going to have a tough time blaming Daddy for being verbally/physically abusive.

This is a game that a parent never thought they would have to play much less DEFEND themselves against their own child.

 

[Omego]

The kid has already created the Grand Canyon between parents.

He is a user- Xanax oxy, pot, booze and That is the least the OP knows about.

Maybe ketamine, heroin, Ecstasy , spice etcetera .
He is NOT miserable- his Father is.
There are no consequences to ANY of his actions if he is smart enough to stay under the radar. Which he probably is. And has been thus far.

Given the fact that he is still a child -- yes, even at 16 -- and immature, I think that it's too harsh to say that he is willingly placing himself in this situation. Doing drugs is a sign of a deeper problem. Of course the parents are miserable, but I believe that there is a way out without demonizing this kid. There's no way that he's happy in is current situation. I think he's in such a hole that he can't see the way out.

The drug/alcohol use is a major problem which needs to be resolved, by whatever means available. There's no way to improve this situation otherwise.

 

[username77]

And your wife ?

Her ego probably can't allow her to admit and see that your son is abusive and mentally ill- so she makes you the bad guy- which your son is more than happy to have you be.

You tell him NO which makes YOU the axis of evil-

Don't be shocked if Jr. Isn't telling Mom that YOU are the problem and IF YOU went buhbye that life would be great.

Yeah he already does this. I had the flu so I was locked away in my room quarantined and he played the role of good son, laughing and playing with his siblings. But it's an act. I've caught him breaking his little brothers toys and calling him an ******* (the kid is 5).

I know my wife's solution is just to give him back all his stuff and turn a blind eye. I refuse to do it, I'll let the marriage implode before I allow it.

I make a comfortable living, I always said, just get good grades, don't get in trouble with the police or drugs, be respectful and a good citizen and I'll have no reason to really pry into your life (basically you can rebel a little but keep it under control). You'll get an allowance, I'll get you a car, pay for college, whatever you need. But the kid would rather fight tooth and nail and lose everything than put a dish away or be respectful to his mother.

He definitely plays us. I'm the heavy, his mother is in his corner (until she's not). When my son screws her over then my wife is on me to "discipline him". I do, and then 20 minutes later she's taking him for Chinese food and asking if he can have his phone back.

It's ****ing crazy, I swear my wife and my son deserve each other. Right now I just want to save my relationship with my 11 year old daughter (she's my best friend and a great kid), and my 5 year old son who is so nice. My oldest son can pound sand, if he ever wants a relationship with me he has a lot of making up to do. If he comes around I'll be his biggest supporter, but in his current state I want nothing to do with him.

Has he been formally diagnosed with ODD?
I'm sorry if you've already addressed that.

He wasn't formally diagnosed but on one of his hospital visits for threatening suicide the psychiatrist took me aside and said she believes he's just evading her questionnaire, telling her what he thinks she wants to hear. I talked to that doctor for an hour and she said it's likely ODD but he probably has underlying depression, anxiety, and potentially another personality disorder at play but he's too young to diagnose with a personality disorder.

 

[Omego]

He wasn't formally diagnosed but on one of his hospital visits for threatening suicide the psychiatrist took me aside and said she believes he's just evading her questionnaire, telling her what he thinks she wants to hear. I talked to that doctor for an hour and she said it's likely ODD but he probably has underlying depression, anxiety, and potentially another personality disorder at play but he's too young to diagnose with a personality disorder.

That's the problem. The drugs, the mental illness, etc. So many variables...

Is there any way to get him into a detox facility, against his will?

 

[username77]

His parents- they are screwed unless he murders them or attempts to.

My Mom knows about him because when she watched him he stole pills from her, sleeping pills and pain pills for her neck and stole her car. I told her if he killed me in my sleep I wouldn't be surprised even 1 bit.

If he is diagnosed with ANY Cluster B and threatens his parents- kiddo is going to have a tough time blaming Daddy for being verbally/physically abusive.

Yeah that's his thing, his mother and I were verbally abusive. Like after he stole my brand new car and crashed it I yelled at him, that's apparently abusive.

I grew up with nothing, with real abusive crazy parents, I joined the military, put myself through college, earned a Master's degree. I never acted like this. I never played this eternal victim. Unfortunately I have a lot of crazy in my DNA on both sides and I suspect he just inherited this.

And that's the real thing thing that pisses me off. The kid is such a giant *****. He thinks he's enlightened and independent, but he's terrified of life. He's a coward in every sense of the word.

 

[sandcastle]

And that's the real thing thing that pisses me off. The kid is such a giant *****. He thinks he's enlightened and independent, but he's terrified of life. He's a coward in every sense of the word.

A coward who is and will destroy everything and anything that makes him feel less than.

Like his siblings. You. Whoever.

You cannot possibly fix this. You can only protect yourself and your other children.

And he certainly CAN be diagnosed. He is not too young. But good luck on that . Unless he does something awful .

 

[RandomDude]

I know my wife's solution is just to give him back all his stuff and turn a blind eye. I refuse to do it, I'll let the marriage implode before I allow it...

But the kid would rather fight tooth and nail and lose everything than put a dish away or be respectful to his mother...

I'm the heavy, his mother is in his corner (until she's not). When my son screws her over then my wife is on me to "discipline him". I do, and then 20 minutes later she's taking him for Chinese food and asking if he can have his phone back...

It's ****ing crazy, I swear my wife and my son deserve each other.

So... have you drilled into your wife's mind her yet how he's takes advantage of any inconsistency and disunity he can find? He suffers no consequence, mum has his back.

I drove ex-wife crazy with this, she disciplined our daughter, I spoiled her, and boom; rebelliousness. It's because they can. I nibbed it in the butt as soon as I realised how awful I was making things. Now our daughter is very well-behaved and she earns her privileges, she knows even though mum and dad ain't together, we aren't tolerating her BS and we stand as one in this.

I've never raised a 16 year old however, and I wonder if my daughter's inner rebel will emerge again at that age, I hope not!

Though I was a rebellious youth as well in my childhood, in pre-teens I was poisoned against my father by my mother, I took advantage of this disunity, used mum against him. Eventually he had enough of me, and kicked me out so I had to stay with mum. I didn't dare rebel against mum because once dad was out of the picture, she's very strict and not afraid to discipline. Unfortunately mum's boyfriend didn't like me moving in, and she kicked me out because he didn't like me around not paying rent, then broke up with him and left the country, so I was worth less than her boyfriend who she even dumped later lol.

For six years I embraced my inner rebel and it still persists to this age. Everyone was my enemy especially law enforcement. After I was caught it was all over, I was no longer off the grid, my fingerprints all taken and I had a wakeup call face to face with an impending prison sentence. I got away with many crimes and only got charged with those at that time but I acknowledged how close it was that I was jailed, and it was only then I decided it's not the life I wanted for myself. I had to suffer the consequences of my actions to see that.

Your son has a comparatively much better situation, but it started from the same issue; family disunity. He also suffers no consequence for him to learn.

 

[username77]

The second part of the problem is the divide this has caused between my wife and I has killed our marriage. The years of dealing with him have left us devoid of all affection for each other. She still tries, I don't feel anything for her anymore. There's not much left to the marriage in my opinion other than finances and shared stuff. I don't really know what to do at this point. I'm not a young man, I don't have forever to find some happiness. Right now I'm miserable in marriage and with my son. Mentally I'm managing, I'm not falling behind in work, but I want to stop letting this run my life. How do I just move past it?

I guess it's time for separation or divorce? I don't want to date anyone or anything like that, but I do want peace, quiet, and a life without incessant craziness my son and wife bring into it. I'm a simple guy, I like the outdoors during the day, then a nice meal, settle into a TV show or book, go to bed. I hate drama, yelling, arguing, stress, but I find my life surrounded by it through no fault of my own.

 

[ConanHub]

Have him committed.

You need to protect your other children.

Send the idiot to a place where he can get strapped to a table or solitary for acting like a moron.

My oldest son was somewhat similar but I never played softball with him so it did not get quite as far. You have the power to commit him against his will while he is a minor.

He will continue to destroy everything around him including your other kids if he isn't stopped.

Call the police and report him if he brings illegal drugs in the home. He is endangering his siblings.

Get your legal ducks in a row and you might have to get actions moving against your wife as well for not protecting her small children from her oldest.

There is no middle ground here.

Been there and done that.