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You assume that the current tack will result in all those horrible outcomes. Maybe. Or maybe it will lead to a better deal as it behooves both sides, including the Chinese, to find an agreement.... and no, simply rolling over and accepting unfavorable conditions is not an agreement, it's capitulation and subjugation. You seem to have an inherent premise that taking it is somehow being a good global partner, but it is anything but.

And you obviously have no clue about the extent of Chinese trade underhandedness.

https://www.businessinsider.com/counterfeit-parts-from-china-raise-grave-concerns-for-both-us-companies-and-national-security-2012-6

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-aviation-whistleblower-insight/fake-paperwork-poor-parts-challenge-chinas-aerospace-boom-idUSKBN1CL0R2


https://www.aeri.com/chinese-counterfeit-parts/

Yeah.... we just can't live without all those substandard parts!
 

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InMyPrime said:
I don’t despise Trump just because; I look at it in terms of probabilities: I can see that he can do a lot more harm than good.
Meh. The same could be said of any US president.

Europeans don't like that? Well, guess who don't care, boys.
Oh, don't assume we all think the same. We're not all ManfromDenmark.
 

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IN dealing with Chinese vendors fir 12 years. We bought low tech stuff that they can make.

We do run into issues where their quality slips or is not consistent. We've had some issues and production delays. If they screw up then it escalates to an air shipment quickly.

From what I've seen any type of critical to make product doesn't go to China unless they are a proven vendor.

Hence, it may cost more but they aren't irreplaceable. It's always been make the complicated hard to produce stuff here. Outsource the easy stuff for the price break.

While I can't speak for all companies I'd bet it's similar.
 

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You mean the fabricated “proof”, right? That’s all Hitler needed too. ... where did I put that....that Rasmussen dossier....
Now now Germany is probably a sore topic.

To Rasmussen’s credit at least he publicly apologized for this Dane’s country’s reprehensible samarbejdspolitikken policy. Perhaps this Dane ought to look down his nose a tad less and be a bit more humble.
 

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You assume that the current tack will result in all those horrible outcomes. Maybe. Or maybe it will lead to a better deal as it behooves both sides, including the Chinese, to find an agreement.... and no, simply rolling over and accepting unfavorable conditions is not an agreement, it's capitulation and subjugation. You seem to have an inherent premise that taking it is somehow being a good global partner, but it is anything but.

And you obviously have no clue about the extent of Chinese trade underhandedness.

https://www.businessinsider.com/counterfeit-parts-from-china-raise-grave-concerns-for-both-us-companies-and-national-security-2012-6

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-aviation-whistleblower-insight/fake-paperwork-poor-parts-challenge-chinas-aerospace-boom-idUSKBN1CL0R2


https://www.aeri.com/chinese-counterfeit-parts/

Yeah.... we just can't live without all those substandard parts!
How come you all are so worried about the trade deficit - it's actually not doing anything bad to your country. The unemployment is low, the dollar is strong and the interest rates are low. You are just buying more from China than you are selling to them.

Of course, there is more to it, but if you want to negotiate better trade agreements and lower the trade deficit, it won't help anything to force the Chinese to buy their goods elsewhere. That's exactly what you are doing at the moment.

It's a common view among economists in Europe that Donald Trump doesn't understand the trade deficit, and thus treats it as being solely negative for the US.

The trade war will not have any impact on Chinese counterfeiting
 

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Yep Congress, DOD and DOE love to waste our money.







That's exactly what a lot of people want to know.



We also use software developers in China, Russia and other questionable countries to develop defense systems. Shoot even to develop/manage secure communications system similar to skype. It's crazy.
But illegal border crossers are the main threat to national security

Rationalization hamster 101...

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I don't think they are worse than the US
You have probably watched too many US Spy/intrigue movies.
You do not have the full picture of the things that China has pulled on the US gov and industries because we do not report it in the press.

I think your auto industries will miss selling the 267000 cars worth $9.9 billion if they start buying them in Germany instead. Your farmers will not like it if the export of agricultural products drops. China may start buying them elsewhere (and we would be glad to sell them some more pork). On the import side; Most of the electronic companies, such as Apple and HP, will have to look elsewhere to get their products manufactured, which will result in higher consumer prices, which again will hurt their ability to compete with other companies - Huawei and Samsung for example. Everything is linked together, so it's not that simple.
Of course, it’s not that simple.

What I find amusing is that when we were discussing the health insurance and medical industries and Bernie’s Medicare for All bill/proposal that would basically financially destroy the US insurance and medical industries, your take, and the take of other supporters are ok with that. As one person said… industries disappear all the time; it’s better for the social good.

But here we are going to worry about pork and soybean exports. Looking at this from the same mind set…. The US imports far more food from China than China imports for the US. I guess the farmers can change what they grow and feed the US instead of China.

Why is it ok to destroy the US insurance and medical industry but doing anything to change the US export of food is bad. Actually, if US farmers would stop exporting beef and pork to China, the prices of these things would go down in the US. For the last few years the cost of meat in the US is getting so high a lot of people cannot even afford it anymore.
This is simply not true. Chinese companies are not involved in this kind of activity, it would kill their businesses immediately. According to the IP addresses, most ransomware criminals are located in Russia - this seems to be a national sport there, just as most telephone scammers are from India.
Sometimes google can be your friend. It was not hard to find pages of reports like these.
Exclusive: Chinese hackers behind U.S. ransomware attacks - security firms
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-ransomware-idUSKCN0WG2L5

Chinese Robocalls Bombarding The U.S. Are Part Of An International Phone Scam
https://www.npr.org/2018/05/10/609117134/chinese-robocalls-bombarding-the-u-s-are-part-of-an-international-phone-scam
In regard to collecting personal data on the internet - no one is worse than Google, Facebook, Microsoft, and Apple. Except of course your intelligence services, but that is different - or is it?
Yes Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple collect the data that a person types in when they create an account and when they use their applications. If a person does not want the companies to have their data, stay off the internet. What they don’t do is to secretly download everything off your computer to mine it for data that they can use for scams, capture all the passwords you enter on sites, etc.

Here on TAM, everything you post here is permanent. Nothing is ever deleted.

Here is a list of what Google collects. It’s all info voluntarily provide by the user.
• Things you search for
• Videos you watch
• Ads you view or click
• Your location
• Websites you visit
• Apps, browsers, and devices you use to access Google services

Information that users provide to google when they sign up:
• Your name, birthday, and gender
• Your password and phone number
• Emails you write and receive on Gmail
• Photos and videos you save
• Docs, Sheets, and Slides you create on Drive
• Comments you make on YouTube
• Contacts you add
• Calendar events

Google and Facebook track location – if the person turns on location
Google app store knows all the apps you buy/install from them

Here you go, you can download the file with all the info Google has on you.
https://takeout.google.com/settings/takeout?pli=1

Keep in mind that a lot of people are concerned with the data collection/retention and how it is used. For example, in China, these companies turn it over to the government that then uses it against their citizens.

Many in the US are concerned that with all the spying on the US citizens that has been going on for some time now that the US government might use these companies against us. This is an internal problem and has nothing to do with China.

Yes, those Hollywood movies show you exactly what the US intelligence agencies do. Yea, like The Bourne Identity. Wow, that’s what it’s really like. LOL
 

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But illegal border crossers are the main threat to national security

Rationalization hamster 101...
Do you realize that we hand deal with more than one issue at a time? Yea.

For example we can cancel defense programs that are not performing well or no longer meet the needs of our military. For example, all of the programs in the list you provided were cancelled, many of them over a decade ago.

And at the very same time we can deal with problems at the border that many consider a national security issue.
 

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But that’s precisely the thing that many who voted for him seem to value so much; they feel they have been somehow screwed over so much by everyone else before Trump (as well as other many countries) that they feel need somebody who is ‘qualified’ at screwing people on their behalf, instead of ‘diplomatically’ receiving anal treatment...
I can understand where they are coming from but in my opinion it’s shortsighted and the risks way outweighs the potential benefits.

I hired once somebody like that. That was precisely my thinking. It backfired tremendously and I almost went under. It’s like the flu virus; it’s self-limiting, if it’s too aggressive.
Ah, this is you putting your own spin on things. People who voted for Trump are not looking to have others screwed over.
 

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You mean the fabricated “proof”, right? That’s all Hitler needed too. And the witch hunts in Salem. Cool...give me a minute...got some proof for you about your Prime Minister. Hang on....looking...it’s around here somewhere...where did I put that....that Rasmussen dossier....it’s in a blue folder. Wait....here it is. Wow...look how dirty this guy is. Holy CRAP....it even involves the Queen!! We MUST get to the bottom of this!!!
It wouldn't be the first time - there was something about buying underwear and suits for government money a few years ago, and also something about not having proper receipts for wine. We forgave him for the wine thing, but the underwear problem cost him his job at the election in 2011.

So bring it on - we demand that our ministers are clean, and they know it :smile2:

Last time we had an impeachment was in the mid-eighties, where the special investigation resulted in the firing of the minister of justice.
 

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How come you all are so worried about the trade deficit - it's actually not doing anything bad to your country. The unemployment is low, the dollar is strong and the interest rates are low. You are just buying more from China than you are selling to them.

Of course, there is more to it, but if you want to negotiate better trade agreements and lower the trade deficit, it won't help anything to force the Chinese to buy their goods elsewhere. That's exactly what you are doing at the moment.

It's a common view among economists in Europe that Donald Trump doesn't understand the trade deficit, and thus treats it as being solely negative for the US.

The trade war will not have any impact on Chinese counterfeiting
Did I say anything about the trade deficit?

I was just responding to your claim that the Chinese woudln't be up to no good... clearly they are.

I really don't care that cutting trade won't stop the Chinese from counterfeiting.... but it can stop us from going after cheap, inferior, counterfeit parts. The point is that all that trade we supposedly "need" isn't really a loss if we're giving up cheap access to inferior goods. Maybe we learn to make our own **** again. Costly? Sure, in the short term, but possibly worth it. Almost certainly more worth it than relying on crap.
 

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Do you realize that we hand deal with more than one issue at a time? Yea.



For example we can cancel defense programs that are not performing well or no longer meet the needs of our military. For example, all of the programs in the list you provided were cancelled, many of them over a decade ago.



And at the very same time we can deal with problems at the border that many consider a national security issue.
We've cancelled token programs but motherhood and apple pie programs like the F-35 continue to drain budgets.

If you don't understand what's going on with the F-35 look into the delays or the massive efforts of the DOD et al to promote the F-35 as the plane to beat regardless, or their resistance to cheaper alternatives like the A-10.

Shiny new objects win every time.

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It wouldn't be the first time - there was something about buying underwear and suits for government money a few years ago, and also something about not having proper receipts for wine. We forgave him for the wine thing, but the underwear problem cost him his job at the election in 2011.



So bring it on - we demand that our ministers are clean, and they know it :smile2:



Last time we had an impeachment was in the mid-eighties, where the special investigation resulted in the firing of the minister of justice.


Yes.. but you didn’t invent a reason to investigate and THEN find something.
 

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You assume that the current tack will result in all those horrible outcomes. Maybe. Or maybe it will lead to a better deal as it behooves both sides, including the Chinese, to find an agreement.... and no, simply rolling over and accepting unfavorable conditions is not an agreement, it's capitulation and subjugation. You seem to have an inherent premise that taking it is somehow being a good global partner, but it is anything but.



And you obviously have no clue about the extent of Chinese trade underhandedness.



https://www.businessinsider.com/counterfeit-parts-from-china-raise-grave-concerns-for-both-us-companies-and-national-security-2012-6



https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-aviation-whistleblower-insight/fake-paperwork-poor-parts-challenge-chinas-aerospace-boom-idUSKBN1CL0R2





https://www.aeri.com/chinese-counterfeit-parts/



Yeah.... we just can't live without all those substandard parts!

I’ll be in China in two week. I will put in a good word for you guys
I have to say, the few dealings I had with China, I’m not impressed...Very unreliable.
Still, I think he should stop tweeting about it. Unless he’s playing some kind of a double game.


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The most obvious example of this is George Soros. He joined the Nazi's in persecuting his own people. Then after the war he took what he learned from the Nazi's to build a financial empire by sowing discord in countries causing their collapse and them stealing all that he could from them.

Where do you get you information from? I’m curious because that might explain yours (and perhaps others) misconceptions about what’s actually happening, politically...

Soros had never anything to do with Nazis. He was 9 years old when the war broke out.
It’s another one of those ‘alternative facts’/conspiracy theories that are completely false.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/george-soros-ss-nazi-germany/

But I don’t doubt that perhaps there were Jews who had to do horrible things to survive, I don’t know.
Some of my family did end up on concentration camps and were never given a chance to do anything with the Nazis...bad OR good. Once it was established you were Jewish, they slapped on a yellow star onto you and off you went. So I don’t think there were many (any?) Jews that worked with the SS.
Anyway that’s besides the topic.



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What's wrong with having the top 5%-10% pay more in taxes?
Rationalization hamster 101 logic.

As implemented, the cap screwed wealthier people mostly in coast states or big urban centers, both of which are reliably Democrats generally.

As intended.

A fairer ( ) version would have set the cap based on per state averages.

Anyhow, that's past for me, but nearly all my dual income colleagues got screwed as well. Liberal or not. And will continue to be. All while corporations pay zero year after year.

As intended.



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You have probably watched too many US Spy/intrigue movies.
You do not have the full picture of the things that China has pulled on the US gov and industries because we do not report it in the press.
I don't watch spy movies, and if I did, I would know it was fiction. Do you have the full picture - I doubt it. The US has been caught so many times in Europe with their hands down the cookie jar, so there is a lot of evidence of spying.


Of course, it’s not that simple.

What I find amusing is that when we were discussing the health insurance and medical industries and Bernie’s Medicare for All bill/proposal that would basically financially destroy the US insurance and medical industries, your take, and the take of other supporters are ok with that. As one person said… industries disappear all the time; it’s better for the social good.
Coincidentally, half an hour ago I watched a documentary on the Danish National News about insulin prices in the US and a young guy without insurance that died because he couldn't afford to pay $1400 for his insulin. The young man had type 1 diabetes. They interviewed the director of Novo Nordisk and accused him of greed because the prices have gon up several hundred percents over the last few years. He explained how the middlemen expect large discounts when they negotiate, and because of that, they were forced to raise the list price. The negotiated prices do only benefit the insurance customers, people without insurance have to pay the full price. The middlemen get their profits from the discounts.

Now I'm not so naive that I don't think there is greed in play here, but there certainly is something fundamentally wrong with your health insurance system. So don't talk about destroying your health insurance system - it's already dysfunctional!

But here we are going to worry about pork and soybean exports. Looking at this from the same mind set…. The US imports far more food from China than China imports for the US. I guess the farmers can change what they grow and feed the US instead of China.

Why is it ok to destroy the US insurance and medical industry but doing anything to change the US export of food is bad. Actually, if US farmers would stop exporting beef and pork to China, the prices of these things would go down in the US. For the last few years the cost of meat in the US is getting so high a lot of people cannot even afford it anymore.
This is simply too far out to comment - I hope you don't actually believe it!

Sometimes google can be your friend. It was not hard to find pages of reports like these.
Exclusive: Chinese hackers behind U.S. ransomware attacks - security firms
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-ransomware-idUSKCN0WG2L5

Chinese Robocalls Bombarding The U.S. Are Part Of An International Phone Scam
https://www.npr.org/2018/05/10/609117134/chinese-robocalls-bombarding-the-u-s-are-part-of-an-international-phone-scam

Yes Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple collect the data that a person types in when they create an account and when they use their applications. If a person does not want the companies to have their data, stay off the internet. What they don’t do is to secretly download everything off your computer to mine it for data that they can use for scams, capture all the passwords you enter on sites, etc.

Here on TAM, everything you post here is permanent. Nothing is ever deleted.

Here is a list of what Google collects. It’s all info voluntarily provide by the user.
• Things you search for
• Videos you watch
• Ads you view or click
• Your location
• Websites you visit
• Apps, browsers, and devices you use to access Google services

Information that users provide to google when they sign up:
• Your name, birthday, and gender
• Your password and phone number
• Emails you write and receive on Gmail
• Photos and videos you save
• Docs, Sheets, and Slides you create on Drive
• Comments you make on YouTube
• Contacts you add
• Calendar events

Google and Facebook track location – if the person turns on location
Google app store knows all the apps you buy/install from them

Here you go, you can download the file with all the info Google has on you.
https://takeout.google.com/settings/takeout?pli=1

Keep in mind that a lot of people are concerned with the data collection/retention and how it is used. For example, in China, these companies turn it over to the government that then uses it against their citizens.

Many in the US are concerned that with all the spying on the US citizens that has been going on for some time now that the US government might use these companies against us. This is an internal problem and has nothing to do with China.

Yes, those Hollywood movies show you exactly what the US intelligence agencies do. Yea, like The Bourne Identity. Wow, that’s what it’s really like. LOL
I work with IT, so I know what I'm talking about. You can't use the internet without getting tracked unless you are a nerd who knows exactly what you are doing. No matter where you go on the internet, data is collected, and it's very much an object of trade, and it has been so for the last 20 years. Data is big business, in China as well as in the rest of the world - it's just the way it is, if you don't like it, then stay off the internet and don't buy a smartphone.

The EU's GDPR has made it more difficult to comply with the rules, and it has forced the big companies to tighten up their policies in regard to collection and storage of personal data. But they still collect extensive information about you all the time - in addition to the data you can request to be removed.

China is not a democracy, so it's very likely that they do some things we don't like. But they are also interested in selling their technology, and they are definitely not stupid. They know perfectly well that if they try to use their products to spy on other countries, it will kill their export. That doesn't mean we shouldn't keep an eye on them, but to assume that Chinese product are spying devices is wrong.
 
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