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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
HELP! We are going through rough times. To make a really long story short, I am considering divorce.

I approached my wife twice before with the suggestion of counseling and was turned down both times.

Recently, I told her I was contemplating divorce and told her we needed to go to counseling or it was over. She agreed and we have been 5 times so far.

We have the typical ups and downs of marriage, that I know will exist with any marriage, but we also have a unique situation.

We own a small business and work together EVERY DAY! This is killing our marriage and I suggested that she, the one with a degree and killer resume, should find a job to not only help supplement our income, but give us some much needed space.

She refuses and rather than get a job, she pulled money out of her IRA, she's not 59 1/2, and bought some time.

Our business is 3 years old and doing well, but it's not making enough $ to support itself and our family. Hence, me asking her to help out and get a job, hopefully with benefits.

Soooooo, I have been thinking about divorce or if I married the right person for about 2 years now and we have been actively discussing divorce/marriage for about 2 months now with counseling.

Here's what could be the last straw.

My sister is gay and I love her. My wife is what I call a "super Catholic" and doesn't agree with my sister's way of life.

I get it, and I'm a Catholic as well. But here's the deal. My sister is getting married, no date set yet, and when I told my wife we should attend and that our daughters will probably be asked to be flower girls, etc. she FLAT OUT REFUSED!

She said she doesn't support their marriage and she and the kids will not go period.

This was two days ago. And I told her this would cause a major s#@$ storm with my family and they won't forget it.

She told me that they would just have to understand "our" stance on the subject and accept the fact that we won't attend or support the marriage.

THIS IS CRAZY! I mean, sometimes you have to bite your tongue and be a grownup and show up. Put on your fake smile if you need to and let's get through this thing together. It's not that big of a deal and it's FAMILY!

Last night, she was asking specific questions about dates, my involvement, etc. and kept asking me how "I" was going to make it down to the wedding. We're a little short on $$$. There was not talk of "we" or "me and the girls."

So, this could be the last straw. This could be the catalyst for divorce and I need some help.

I'm emotional and want other opinions on the subject so I can make a good decision regardless of my feelings.

PLEASE CHIME IN :crying::crying::crying:
 

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The other issues aside, I'm with your wife about the gay wedding.

I wouldn't attend either and wouldn't want my children to attend.

If you believe something is wrong, you don't endorse it even if you love someone.

She believes it to be a sinful act. You desire her to partake and endorse, by her presence and the involvement of your children, in a sinful ceremony.

If that is your last straw, stop talking and start divorcing.

You two have incompatible belief systems.

Stop trying to manipulate and force her to defy her beliefs and who she is.

You find her stance disgusting and she yours.

I would divorce you over this issue if I were her.

You are too different.
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I think you should raise this wedding issue in front of your counsellor so your wife is forced to confront her offensive, childish and (from perspective of your and your kids relationship with the rest of your family) damaging stance in front of someone detached and objective.

Is your wife hoping that your kids never find out that there are homosexual people in the world? Or is the aim that they be viewed as such low lives that nobody your kids know or love could possibly fall into such a group?
 

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You have religious convictions which you are entitled to and which no one, not even your wife, have the right to dispute, ignore, or interfere with. Your wife has the same. If you want to go to the wedding, go. If your wife feels that her attendance would be offensive to God, she should not attend. If you were raised Catholic I expect your family members have all met people of varying degrees of religious commitment. They will understand and piss on them if they don't. Your primary loyalty is to your wife. If they disrespect her they disrespect you. If you wish to end this marriage then you should end it. If there is still any part of you that wants to make it work you need to quit talking about divorce. A man who frequently speaks of divorce offers zero security to a woman. If I were getting married, I would not want anyone attending against their will.

My wife and I are two different people. I have my own moral convictions and some don't make sense to her. She has her's and some don't make a lot of sense to me. She would never force me to act contrary to mine and I will never force her to behave contrary to her's. To do so would be to disrespect her as a person and nobody can feel loved and disrespected at the same time. Even when our nation faces serious threats and we are at war, we don't force complete strangers to fight if it violates their moral convictions. Hasn't your wife earned the right to be a conscientious objector for this wedding? Is someone going to die if she doesn't show up? I assume the wedding will proceed in her absence and this couple will get married either way. Life will continue, the sun will rise, the birds will sing, some family members might talk ugly for a time but those folks would probably be gossiping about something anyway and the target of their ire will change when new family drama appears. You are running a struggling business and your marriage is about to fail. You have much bigger fish to fry than worrying about someone else's wedding or what Uncle Frank thinks about your wife.
 

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@ConanHub is right, IMO. Just like him, "The other issues aside, I'm with your wife about the gay wedding" . A person's religion is primary to their core beliefs. You cannot call another person's religious beliefs "crazy". You do not "bite your tongue" on major issues like this. You want it YOUR way. YOU are the one not understanding your WIFE's beliefs and you are putting your sister before your wife. And then you wonder why your marriage is failing.
 

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Im a supporter of Gay marriage, My mom worked at OHSU when i was a kid in the nineties and there were MANY lesbian couples in the medical field. I am good friend with a few of my moms co workers and though I'm not a lesbian I'm also not religious and the couples i knew are good people. In fact i stayed in a couples victorian mansion in vermont just cause they felt like they needed young people about. (Older lesbian couple far into retirement)

Your sister is family, and you seem to love her anyway, and from the tone of your post you don't seem to fully share the same values as your wife. I think your wife is a bit of a biggot and it makes me sad that people can't just be there for the other in kindness and love for fellow man. There is a difference between a vow to god, and a vow to each other. Think of the marriage ceremony as their vow to each other and not a betrayal of your beliefs system because you are supporting your sister. Family is EVERYTHING and from the sounds of it you and your wife may not remain a family much longer.

Hell i don't support being a Mason, or sitting through their horrible long installations, and all that crap, but I GO because my husbands family have that value and i want to be a part of that family.

Morals and values aside, you and your wife are clearly not on the same page and i think it SHOULD go towards divorce. You are not pulling the same cart forward. Forget who is wrong or right, its just pure incompatibility.
 

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Im a supporter of Gay marriage, My mom worked at OHSU when i was a kid in the nineties and there were MANY lesbian couples in the medical field. I am good friend with a few of my moms co workers and though I'm not a lesbian I'm also not religious and the couples i knew are good people. In fact i stayed in a couples victorian mansion in vermont just cause they felt like they needed young people about. (Older lesbian couple far into retirement)

Your sister is family, and you seem to love her anyway, and from the tone of your post you don't seem to fully share the same values as your wife. I think your wife is a bit of a biggot and it makes me sad that people can't just be there for the other in kindness and love for fellow man. There is a difference between a vow to god, and a vow to each other. Think of the marriage ceremony as their vow to each other and not a betrayal of your beliefs system because you are supporting your sister. Family is EVERYTHING and from the sounds of it you and your wife may not remain a family much longer.

Hell i don't support being a Mason, or sitting through their horrible long installations, and all that crap, but I GO because my husbands family have that value and i want to be a part of that family.

Morals and values aside, you and your wife are clearly not on the same page and i think it SHOULD go towards divorce. You are not pulling the same cart forward. Forget who is wrong or right, its just pure incompatibility.
Just curious how you sat through installations. Are you in the eastern star or what?
Anyway, I guess you know that fraternity is all about charity, and helping others. 32nd degree masons, "Shriners" run hospitals that help children all over the world at no cost to the children or their parents.
That's the kind of work masons do.
Why would you not support that?
Just curious.
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Wow, I am really sad to read this, OP. I would definitely attend the ceremony if I were you. If your wife does not want you to take the girls, I would respect her wishes.

23 years ago my gay sister had her union ceremony. My dad, a staunch Catholic, refused to attend, as did several evangelical siblings. That hurt my sister a lot.

My mom attended with my aunt. My aunt was Catholic, too, and spoke with her priest beforehand. He told her to attend.

I think it will take a lot of love and patience on your part to turn things around with your wife. If it is even possible.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thank you all for chiming in. I'm not trying to force my wife to do anything. I made her aware of the wedding, she acknowledged it and we're moving forward from there. I'm not going to harp on the subject or make her feel like crap for not going.

The simple fact is that, to me, family is family. If you don't support the gay marriage, I get it. If you don't want to go, OK. But, if you tell me that OUR kids aren't going due to your beliefs, that's not ok.

They're my kids too and this is their family too. They need to see the world with open eyes and learn to respect other's beliefs. They don't have to agree with them, but they do need to be aware of other people's way of life in the world.

Our marriage is shaky for various reasons. I am not a cradle Catholic. I converted so we, as a family, could fully participate in mass every Sunday. She is a cradle Catholic and has very strong beliefs. I understand her position on the subject, but don't make your views the kids's views.

Since there's no date set yet, I'm going to leave it be for now. I won't force the subject.

When they do have a date set, I will suggest taking the kids with me and test the water.

Thanks again everyone for chiming in. I really appreciate it.
 

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Oh, and I think OP is wrong on expecting his wife to support a marriage she doesn't believe in by her attendance, and I don't think taking the kids and providing the example that two women marrying is normal and cool is a good idea, either.
Not about bashing gays, but I think it's wrong and therefore I don't support it.
I don't believe in beauty pageants and don't help out or attend them, either.
Your wife is entitled to her beliefs. If you are catholic, how could YOU not understand?
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Let's get this straight.
It is bigotry to be intolerant of someone else's beliefs. If someone wants to get married to someone of their own gender and you disagree with that, not going to the wedding isn't bigotry. Trying to force someone to go to a wedding that is against their beliefs is bigotry.
It is not bigotry to disagree with someone. What is bigotry is telling someone they do not have a right to their belief and you aren't going to tolerate it. It is bigotry to try to force someone to do something against their beliefs.
The wife is not trying to stop the wedding. She is not telling her husband that he cannot go. She is simply living up to what she believes. You, the husband, telling your wife that you are intolerant of her strongly held beliefs is bigotry.
 

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I understand her position on the subject, but don't make your views the kids's views.
When you married her, did you have to sign a paper saying your children would be raised Catholic?

I don't know if that is still done, as I left the Church long ago. But I do remember hearing about that when I was growing up. That might be where she is coming from.
 

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Just curious how you sat through installations. Are you in the eastern star or what?
Anyway, I guess you know that fraternity is all about charity, and helping others. 32nd degree masons, "Shriners" run hospitals that help children all over the world at no cost to the children or their parents.
That's the kind of work masons do.
Why would you not support that?
Just curious.
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My husband is a mason, and i sat with the ladies and wives beading.... Not very fun for a 22 year old and being that i was not brought up with the masons i had no real understanding. But i loved and supported my husband and his family.

I sat through Demolay when my husband was a teenager, and Jobs daughters, rainbow and easter star. Yes...i have sat through them all to a degree. Its not my most fondest moments honestly. But i did it and i don't feel its a bad thing that i did.

Sorry for the thread jack.
 

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That's what parents DO, is teach their kids to value what they value. We, as Christians, are supposed to teach our kids that the rules in the Bible don't change to fit society.

I totally think you're in the wrong in this. She is right to not want your kids to go. She understands it's your sister and you want to support her.

Exactly what would you NOT support your sister in? There should be a limit to what you support. I think you should pray about this and see where your heart is led.
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If you don't want to go, OK. But, if you tell me that OUR kids aren't going due to your beliefs, that's not ok.
But it's ok for you to insist they DO go due to YOUR beliefs? Double standard.

Yes, kids will eventually need to be exposed to all kinds of people and belief systems, but part of our jobs as parents can be to shield them from adult issues before their little minds are mature enough to formulate their own beliefs and convictions, while attempting to guide them in what we believe to be true. Since you and your wife are not in agreement on this issue, this wedding will likely not be the only time this issue comes up.

How old are your kids? If they are little enough to be flower girls, I assume they are young, and they will not be sad or upset, or even know, that they are missing the wedding. So, then the issue becomes you are afraid of pissing off the rest of the family (i.e. your sister, maybe your parents?), and that's making your family more important than your wife.

I'm sure your sister knows that not everyone, especially religious people, will approve of her marriage. She's had to put up with a lot of this type of thing in her lifetime, and your wife is probably not the only person who will choose not to attend. I think she'll understand.
 

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OP, do the girls know that their aunt is getting married? Have they expressed any opinions on going?

One risk of not telling them, after discussion with their mother, of course, is that later in life they may feel disrespected by not having had the opportunity to express their opinions on the matter. They may blame you, as the parent who knew, but did not fight to let them know.

Just something to consider.
 

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I think you should raise this wedding issue in front of your counsellor so your wife is forced to confront her offensive, childish and (from perspective of your and your kids relationship with the rest of your family) damaging stance in front of someone detached and objective.

Is your wife hoping that your kids never find out that there are homosexual people in the world? Or is the aim that they be viewed as such low lives that nobody your kids know or love could possibly fall into such a group?
Excuse me? It's now childish and offensive to have religious and moral beliefs and to want to pass those beliefs onto offspring?

The wife is a woman of faith. Her faith teaches that marriage is reserved for heterosexual couples. Her faith also teaches that it is a grave sin to support gay marriage, explicitly or implicitly. This woman literally believes that attending this wedding is morally wrong and does not want to attend nor have her children attend.

That said, attending the reception is kind of a grey area. Possible comprmise there.

And, lastly, directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Clearly, this woman isn't being malicious. She is called by her faith to be respectful, sensitive, and compassionate to homosexuals. What she is forbidden to do is attend the wedding ceremony.
 

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Seems that there's so many problems in the OPs marriage, that this wedding issue is just indicative of the many broader problems... I can't really imagine living with someone and having such fundamentaly different moral beliefs though - I feel for you as it's very hard to raise kids and constantly have to compromise on which beliefs to instill in them.

I hope you're counselling can help things.


Don't want to hijack the thread, but stuff like "You cannot call another person's religious beliefs "crazy"" and "You have religious convictions which you are entitled to and which no one, not even your wife, have the right to dispute, ignore, or interfere with " is an odd thing to say, and this isn't even accounting for the fact that the Catholic church is responsible and complicit for some the largest examples of institutionalized and covered up child abuse in history (which means it's hard to argue in favor of following their selected morality). Being religious doesn't give people a free pass (no right to dispute, ignore interfere with...) it's this kind of sentiment that has lead all religions to inflict misery on the masses throughout history and still today.

But it's ok for you to insist they DO go due to YOUR beliefs? Double standard.

Yes, kids will eventually need to be exposed to all kinds of people and belief systems, but part of our jobs as parents can be to shield them from adult issues before their little minds are mature enough to formulate their own beliefs and convictions, while attempting to guide them in what we believe to be true. Since you and your wife are not in agreement on this issue, this wedding will likely not be the only time this issue comes up.

How old are your kids? If they are little enough to be flower girls, I assume they are young, and they will not be sad or upset, or even know, that they are missing the wedding. So, then the issue becomes you are afraid of pissing off the rest of the family (i.e. your sister, maybe your parents?), and that's making your family more important than your wife.

I'm sure your sister knows that not everyone, especially religious people, will approve of her marriage. She's had to put up with a lot of this type of thing in her lifetime, and your wife is probably not the only person who will choose not to attend. I think she'll understand.
Sorry, but this is upsetting. 1. You're saying that children should be shielded from the idea that 2 people of the same gender can be in love because it's an adult issue? If children are exposed to this (completely natural) thing, then they’re more equipped to make an informed decision about it once they’re older. If it’s something that’s hidden from them, then of course they’re more likely to grow up thinking it’s a bit weird, and maybe wrong.

2. You're saying that because the OPs sister has put up with homophobic behavior in the past, this isn't a big deal, she should just suck it up? Would you say the same about an inter-racial marriage (in the context of the sort of bigotry sometimes associated??
 

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Seems that there's so many problems in the OPs marriage, that this wedding issue is just indicative of the many broader problems... I can't really imagine living with someone and having such fundamentaly different moral beliefs though - I feel for you as it's very hard to raise kids and constantly have to compromise on which beliefs to instill in them.

I hope you're counselling can help things.


Don't want to hijack the thread, but stuff like "You cannot call another person's religious beliefs "crazy"" and "You have religious convictions which you are entitled to and which no one, not even your wife, have the right to dispute, ignore, or interfere with " is an odd thing to say, and this isn't even accounting for the fact that the Catholic church is responsible and complicit for some the largest examples of institutionalized and covered up child abuse in history (which means it's hard to argue in favor of following their selected morality). Being religious doesn't give people a free pass (no right to dispute, ignore interfere with...) it's this kind of sentiment that has lead all religions to inflict misery on the masses throughout history and still today.



Sorry, but this is upsetting. 1. You're saying that children should be shielded from the idea that 2 people of the same gender can be in love because it's an adult issue? If children are exposed to this (completely natural) thing, then they’re more equipped to make an informed decision about it once they’re older. If it’s something that’s hidden from them, then of course they’re more likely to grow up thinking it’s a bit weird, and maybe wrong.

2. You're saying that because the OPs sister has put up with homophobic behavior in the past, this isn't a big deal, she should just suck it up? Would you say the same about an inter-racial marriage (in the context of the sort of bigotry sometimes associated??
We'll see, having religious beliefs and thinking something is wrong is not "homophobia".
Homosexuality is "completely natural"???

Having homosexuality pushed down one's throats as perfectly normal and completely natural is where it gets wrong to me.
I think it's a psychological disorder that shouldn't result in people being persecuted because of it, but it shouldn't be presented as completely natural, either.

See? We disagree...., OP and his wife disagree. OP is a catholic. I'm not. But I know that he should understand that she thinks attending is wrong. Should he force her to agree?
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