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I don't see why you have to break up the marriage. You just have to step up and become a 'man.' Learn about boundaries and enforce them. Educate yourself on her mental issues and find and implement workarounds. Go against your grain and start being a stronger force in your family to get the ship back on keel (is that the right way to say that? lol).

Is it a lot of hard work? Sure. But it's a lot LESS work than living in two homes.
 

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Hurt, that's the same book I recommended to you three weeks ago (post 39 above). It's the best selling book targeted to the spouses and partners of BPD sufferers. I believe you will find it helpful. Yet, if your W is actually suffering from strong BPD traits, you should have noticed them all through your 15 year marriage -- not just in the last 10 months. I therefore am very interested in hearing what you have to say after reading that book. At issue is whether the traits described in that book will ring a bell for you. If your W has strong BPD traits, most of that book likely will read like a biography of her life.
Exactly. AND, it's likely the MC sees it too, and wants YOU to verify it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #63 ·
So I have a 1-hour commute each way, every day. Yesterday, the interstate I take had a 3-car accident. After about an hour of the interstate being completely shut down, 3 additional cars tied up in the gridlock had another accident. 2 accidents, 6 cars involved. Gridlock backed traffic up for 8 miles or more. The first accident occurred at 4:30 and it was 9 PM before traffic was fully back to normal. Additionally, several cars along the way overheated and broke down, which added to the fun.

When I first hit the slowdown, I waited about 5 or 10 minutes, then called to tell her that traffic was tied up and I had no idea when I'd be home. 90 minutes later, she called me, very angry. "Are you coming home tonight? Where are you? Why didn't you call me?" I explained that I had called and that I still had no idea when I was going to be home. She grew more testy the longer I talked and abruptly said goodbye and hung up.

I started out this morning by handing her a printout from the local newspaper's website with the story of yesterday's mayhem. I told her I had sensed a definite lack of trust last night (she frequently questions whether I'm having an affair; I think it's beyond her to imagine we might be having difficulties just because she is so difficult). She said she felt like I was trying to mislead her. She said at the instant I called her, even if traffic had suddenly started moving again, I would have still been 10 minutes late. Since I didn't divulge this fact to her at the moment I called, she felt like I was misleading her and blaming my lateness on a traffic jam whose extent I didn't know until much later. In other words, the moment I called her I was already late and I didn't specifically state that.

I responded by telling her that when I say "I have no idea what time I'll be home, " that should be a self-evident statement. She said she felt I was being dishonest. We agreed to disagree and quit discussing it.

Once again, I turn to my virtual support group. Was I in the wrong on this issue? For the record, I am not having, nor have I ever had, an affair. Not even any serious flirting. An affair would only make a bad situation much, much worse.

What should I have done to more firmly establish the boundaries I'm hoping to establish here? How could I have handled this situation differently? I'm still trying out the "No more walking on eggshells" concept, so I'm curious how others would have handled this.
 

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Come on. Don't you know by now that guilty people project onto you so that you can't look badly at them? You're too busy defending YOURSELF! She will continue to blame everything on you so you don't make her look at herself.

Why do you even bother replying? 'I'm sorry you feel that way.' and walk away.

The no more eggshells means you STOP defending yourself. Unless you have done something wrong, if she tries to blame you, you look her in the eye and just say 'really?' and walk away. Take away her power.
 

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Hurt, I agree with Turnera. When your W is sulking and behaving like a spoiled four-year-old, it is impossible to reason with her because she accepts her intense feelings as constituting reality. To her, the feelings are so intense that they MUST be right. If she has strong BPD traits, she is driven by these intense feelings -- which she refuses to challenge intellectually. It therefore is counter-productive to defend yourself.

If you are determined to remain in the marriage, the best thing you can do -- and it will help only a little bit -- is to validate her feelings by saying you recognize she has such and such feelings and you are sorry she feels that way. Then you give her a brief explanation -- once. Then you walk away. As Turnera says, you should not be feeling that you must defend yourself. The problem lies with her and only she can fix it. Validation techniques are discussed in the Stop Walking on Eggshells book you are reading.
 

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Discussion Starter · #66 ·
OK, I see how my behavior didn't quite set new standards for establishing boundaries. But after years of her stuff, I'm still trying to calibrate my own perceptions here. She was off-base for taking a simple traffic jam and turning into a huge mess, wasn't she? Was I in the wrong to get feel that her reaction was inappropriate?

Sometimes, I feel like I've been messed with so much, I don't even trust my own perceptions any more.
 

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She was off-base for taking a simple traffic jam and turning into a huge mess, wasn't she?
Yes, absolutely. That's what I was referring to when I said she was "sulking and behaving like a spoiled four-year-old." Indeed, she was so far off-base that she got there because she listens only to her intense feelings, not the logical part of her mind. This means you cannot reason with her. And, because she is far out in left field, there is no reason for you to feel defensive. Instead, think of her as a four-year-old in those moments. That is what you are dealing with.
Sometimes, I feel like I've been messed with so much, I don't even trust my own perceptions any more.
Every partner of a BPDer knows exactly what you are talking about. That confusion is so common that, at the BPD websites targeted to spouses and partners, they have given it a name: FOG. Because the BPDers are absolutely convinced that their intense feelings MUST be correct, they produce a long series of false rationalizations to justify their behavior. Because those rationalizations are projections created at her subconscious level, the BPDer consciously believes them and therefore can be very VERY convincing.

On top of that, BPDers also deliberately create false arguments to control their partners because they are so fearful of abandonment. These false arguments are so well known that partners have given it a name too: gaslighting. As I mentioned earlier, it is named after the classic 1944 movie "Gaslight," in which a husband (Charles Boyer) tries to drive his new bride (Ingrid Bergman) crazy so as to have her institutionalized, allowing him to run off with her family jewels. One of his tricks is to keep turning the gaslights down a little bit every day and then claiming that he sees just fine.

The result of such abusive treatment is that most partners leave the relationship within 12 months. Those who choose to stay -- as I did for 15 years -- usually become disoriented and very confused. In addition, they start forgetting what their real personalities are because they have been walking on eggshells for years -- not being their true selves. This is why -- of the ten personality disorders -- BPD is the only one that is notorious for making the non-BPD partners feel like they are losing their minds.

As I cautioned earlier, however, she cannot be suffering from strong BPD traits if you did not see such red flags until the end of your 13-year relationship. Such traits do not vanish for years at a time. This is why I encouraged you to read Stop Walking on Eggshells to see if the nine traits sound familiar. There is nothing subtle about traits such as verbal abuse, black-white thinking, distrustfulness, and lack of impulse control.
 

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She was off-base for taking a simple traffic jam and turning into a huge mess, wasn't she? Was I in the wrong to get feel that her reaction was inappropriate?
Was she off base? She was legitimately annoyed that you were late. When a women is annoyed, they have zero hesitation letting their man know about it. This is 100% normal and typical. What you have to do is stop being the sponge for all her negative feelings to be unloaded into.

Now your big mistake was to feel her reaction was inappropriate and allow it to affect you. Your woman is mad over the situation and when she calls you, you represent the situation and the source. You have to become immune to her emotional outbursts. What you have to do is when your wife speaks to you in a nasty tone of voice you have to tell her to stop speaking to you like that. That is your first order of business. Tell her you will be glad to discuss the situation if she is willing to treat you with respect. Once your wife is speaking to you respectfully, it is OK to acknowledge a mistake: Dear, I see that you became upset and I should have called you again with an update. If she refuses to speak to you with respect, tell her you will continue with this conversation when she is ready to speak to you calmly.
 

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Hicks, the problem with that is that that person - without mental help - will NEVER accept responsibility. We are close friends to such a person and they literally turn your lives upside down if you don't set rigid standards.

This woman literally GAVE her daughter to us - offered (in front of her daughter) to meet us in court so she could hand over her daughter and give up responsibility for her. And she NEVER saw that she did anything wrong.

You CANNOT reason with such a person.
 

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Discussion Starter · #70 ·
You CANNOT reason with such a person.
And believe me, I've tried. I remember once I wanted to address an issue where I felt demeaned in some way. I could have been argumentative and started out with "Why did you ridicule me?" But I didn't. I not only didn't want her to feel instantly defensive, but I was perfectly willing to accept the fact that maybe I was perceiving things differently than they actually were. So I approached it like I've been told by counselors to do: "When you did that thing the other night, it hurt my feelings...."

Her response? "(Sarcastic tone on) Oh Boo-Hoo. I'm so sorry about your precious little feelings! Grow up and be a man!"

I've tried time and again to be reasonable. But sometimes I feel as if we're speaking a different language.
 

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I feel for you if she does have BPD. Your like will be a living H*ll forever...trust me, I have BPD. It took a horrendous thing for me to seek the help I desperately needed. I wish you the best of luck. Another good book for you to read to get insight is I Hate You, Don't Leave Me.
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She has fibro? A chronic illness of tiredness and pain? competently diagnosed?

If so, her weakening health might be a strong contributor to her poor mental outlook.

Do a lot of research on resolving her fibro. Look at all options.
 

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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
So are you ready to send her packing?
No. Because while I have many faults, I'm not a quitter. I made a vow and I'm going to keep it unless I believe us staying together would harm our son. So far, she's been an exceptional mother to him. If she ever turns on him, I'll send her packing, but as long as she is loving and nurturing with him, I an not a quitter.
 

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Then you ought to start educating yourself on how to set healthy boundaries so your son will grow up learing to be like YOU, not her. Just not quitting is not necessarily a great role model.
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
Here is an update on my situation:

Things have continued to deteriorate. After a lot of research about BPD and reading stories at bpdfamily.com, I have come to the sad conclusion that my wife probably has BPD, and that the long-term prognosis is not good. In addition, my wife started making some wildly paranoid accusations against me, including that I was bugging our house phone to spy on her. My mother-in-law became so "concerned" about my alleged "bugging" that she even called the local police and asked them to come over to our house and do a welfare check. I guess she assumed I had also tied up my wife and child in addition to the non-existent phone bugs. The poor cop who came to the door to check on us looked as confused as I was. But the cops at my door - especially at the behest of my dysfunctional mother-in-law, who hates my guts - was something I couldn't take lightly.

After much prayer and a lot of consultation with close, trusted friends, I finally laid down an ultimatum for my wife about two weeks ago; she either return to counseling with me or I consider divorcing her. I think the whole ultimatum caught her off-guard, but the more I talked it over with her, the more I realized she had been thinking the same thing. She even admitted to me after about an hour of talking that if she had felt that she could have gotten full custody of our son, she would have been long gone. That told me a lot about where we are.

I said something durinIg this conversation that was probably ill-advised. During the context of a discussion about what kind of marriage we were modeling for our son, my wife asked me what kind of model we would be giving if we split up. I told her that a model of being happy in divorce was probably a better model than the current one; constant anger and tension, him never seeing mommy and daddy kissing or holding hands. Mommy and daddy sleeping in separate rooms. No sex (although I'm pretty sure he hasn't figured that one out!). I think I also mentioned in passing that maybe at some point in the future, each of us might get into a relationship that was healthy, and that could also be a good model for him.

Word to the wise: Never, ever, ever mention the possibility of another relationship - how ever remote it is - to a spouse with BPD when you're having the divorce talk.

I'm afraid I've mixed things up a little bit. In my bid to make sure I leave no stone unturned in my attempt to get good counsel, I'm afraid I've muddied the waters. I went back and visited our previous marriage counselor, who is now apparently my personal therapist due to my wife's refusal to return. But I also talked to the pastor of our local church about it.

My therapist (who is also a Christian) says that divorce is completely understandable in my situation. She says the (untrue) allegations of physical and emotional abuse alone have put me in a very precarious situation. She advised me to seek legal counsel immediately. I did so; more on that in a minute.

However, I also wanted to talk things over with my pastor. As it turns out, my wife had also talked to him and told him her side of the story - basically that I'd gone "off the deep end" and wanted to go find someone else to marry. For the record, there is no someone else. She took that one comment I made about some hypothetical future relationship if we do divorce, and made it sound as if that were the reason I wanted out.

The truth of the matter is, I do want to be married to my soul-mate. I was hoping it was her. I still do at times.

But the issues are much deeper than this. She has falsely accused me of being mentally and physically abusive. Not to the authorities, because she knows she can't prove it. But to her family, and our friends. People I've known for a decade or more are now questioning whether I'm stable enough to be around my own son. This not only has implications for my family, but also for my job. I have a job which has a fairly high level of responsibility attached to it. Allegations of mental instability could be enough to threaten my career.

We met together with our pastor this week, and I must say that I was extremely frustrated and hurt by his advice. He told me that I needed to banish all thoughts of leaving from my head. He said that God would honor me if I became a "human punching bag" (his words) and decided that I wasn't going to fight for my rights. He ended up telling us we needed to hug each other again.

My gosh, I felt as if I had been punched in the gut. I was physically ill and didn't sleep a wink that night. Was he for real? How do you hug a spouse who unjustly believes you to be physically abusive? I'm afraid to touch her right now, because I don't know how it will be misinterpreted.

I also completely disagree with his "human punching bag" advice. Laying down and being a doormat is what I've done for far too long, and it's gotten me nowhere. Was he really suggesting that just giving in to my wife's unreasonable behavior what God would want me to do? I just can't express my disbelief at how naive this man was. Here's a man who has been my pastor for almost a decade, and now when I need his advice the most, that's what I get? I was flabbergasted!

On another front, I went to my family doctor for a routine physical. It was that time of year again any way, and I wanted to make sure he ruled out anything that could be ruled out that way (high or low thyroid, etc.). My bloodwork came back completely normal. I'm as healthy as any 44-year old man has a right to expect. The doctor did suggest that if I really wanted to prove my mental health, he could refer me to a couple of psychiatrists who could give me a personality profile. But his take was that given the nature of my job (among other things), he figured any pathological mental issues would have been discovered long ago.

I did get a consultation with an attorney. For now, she's not too concerned about the abuse allegations, because they have not involved the authorities. She cautioned me that doing anything about it at this point to protect myself might call more attention to the allegations than they deserved. She also gave me my full range of options regarding divorce or dissolution.

I'm going to take all of this - my attorney's advice, my pastor's advice, and my doctor's recommendations - to my therapist this week and try to come up with a game plan.

My biggest concern here is my son; whatever I do, I don't want him to be hurt. If Mommy and Daddy always fighting and Mommy calling Daddy abusive, stupid, lazy, etc. is the best model we can give him, I'm ready to call it quits. I think being a part-time Daddy who's emotionally healthy beats being a full-time Daddy who's too drained to care.

I also need to consider what future outrages can occur. If she honestly believes that I've been abusive to her and our son, and that I'm really bugging my own phone lines, who knows what weird things she'll accuse me of in the future. As my understanding of BPD grows, it's becoming more and more clear to me that my wife just doesn't see reality the way I do. While most of us have certain "filters" through which we see the world, a person with BPD has filters that are much more vivid and distorted. To put it bluntly, she can't always separate what's really happened versus her internal biases of what is likely to happen. When she looks at me, she sees her abusive uncle, or her abusive grandfather, or her dysfunctional sisters. She doesn't see me for who I am.

I know this decision is mine alone. But I would appreciate any feedback and perspective. Is it better to leave, become more emotionally healthy, and interact with my son on a part-time basis? Or is it better to stay in this living hell, try my best to paint on a happy face, and become a "human punching bag," so my son can have an "intact" home?

Also, prayers for me to have wisdom in this decision are much appreciated.
 

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I truly feel for your situation. I am so sorry that you are dealing with someone like me.

For your own mental health the obvious choice is divorce. There is no way your situation will ever improve if she will not seek help. By you "becoming a human punching bag" the situation will only worsen.

Also, not to alarm you but, studies have shown that children of a BPD parent will generally be BPD themselves. My youngest daughter who is only 12 is ADHD. When we say her psychiatrist for the first time he saw BPD traits in her without even yet knowing I am a BPD'er.

Although I am not a religious person in any way, I will pray for you to come to the best decision possible that you can live with.
 

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She has falsely accused me of being mentally and physically abusive.
Hurt, her accusations of your being abusive are getting worse but there certainly is nothing new about them. A year ago, she accused you of being a danger to your son (by being neglectful) when he burned his finger on the lawnmower. Then there was the bike incident. And, last July, she was refusing to let you drive him anywhere in the car because you could not be trusted to look out for his safety.

Indeed, things were so bad last July that you named this thread "She doesn't trust me." Moreover, if you are correct about her having strong BPD traits -- and I believe you are -- she has never been capable of trusting you for any extended period.
I also need to consider what future outrages can occur. If she honestly believes that I've been abusive to her and our son, and that I'm really bugging my own phone lines, who knows what weird things she'll accuse me of in the future.
Yes, absolutely! It is important to realize that her behavior likely will get worse and she will make outrageous claims that you cannot imagine she is capable of saying. It is common for BPDers to call the police and have their husbands thrown into jail. Because the BPDers are firmly convinced that their mental projections are actually true, they make very persuasive allegations when the police arrive.

That is what happened to me. My exW had me arrested for "brutalizing" her. Actually, I had only pushed her away from a bedroom door that she was trying to destroy during one of her rages (because I had retreated to the safety of the bedroom). Yet, because she had tripped and fallen down when stepping backward, she was convinced I was attacking her. Because it was early on a Saturday morning, I spent nearly three days in jail before I could go before a judge for arraignment.

Prior to entering the courtroom, I spent several hours in a holding cell with 99 other guys. All of the white guys -- there were only three of us -- had been arrested for being "wife beaters." IMO, the other two white guys had been falsely accused just like I had been.

One of them was a young professor in the physics department at a local university and had only been married a short time. I would not be surprised if at least a third of the men arrested for domestic violence (indeed, perhaps even half of them) are falsely accused by vindictive BPDer women.

I therefore believe that, as long as you continue living with an untreated BPDer, you are at risk of being slandered. Being thrown in jail is bad enough. The far greater risk, however, is that she will succeed at doing what she has been trying to do for the past year -- obtain "evidence" that you are abusive and thus pose a threat to your son.

There are many ways in which that may occur. If she is on blood thinner, for example, she will immediately have large bruises when simply bumping against a table while walking past it. She also will immediately show large bruises -- due to the blood thinner -- when you shove her off of you during one of her rages.

I mention this because my exW was on blood thinner and thus quickly had two dark bruises where my palms had pressed against her chest (when pushing her away from the door she was destroying). The bruises form within minutes. She showed the bruises to the police and they photographed them. She then used the photos in court against me. I managed to do well in court only because I had evidence (i.e., insurance statements and checks) that I had been sending her to psychologists for 15 years and that she had been hospitalized when threatening suicide.
I finally laid down an ultimatum for my wife about two weeks ago; she either return to counseling with me or I consider divorcing her.
I hope that, by "counseling," you mean IC rather than MC. IME, MC is a total waste of money and time until a BPDer has had several years of IC -- because her problems go far beyond a simple lack of communication skills. Until those deeper issues are addressed, any improvement in communication skills will likely only serve to make her better at manipulating you.

Another concern I have is that, if your W agrees to therapy only to prevent your leaving, there is little chance it will do no good. As you know, I spent over $200,000 sending my exW to weekly therapy with six different psychologists for 15 years -- all to no avail. Unless the W really wants the therapy badly for HERSELF (not to satisfy your demands), it will do no good.

A third concern is that, because therapy will take several years (at the least) to work, you will be at risk throughout that time of losing your job (due to the rumors she is spreading), being thrown in jail, and losing custody of your son. Moreover, once your W has such damaging "evidence" of you being a threat to your son, you will not be able to get any professional to testify about her compromised mental functioning.

As I've explained in many other threads, psychologists are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer client the name of her disorder -- and they absolutely detest going into court to testify against a client. This reluctance is so well known that one California law firm (Bonne Bridges) warns on its website that there is virtually no chance of obtaining expert testimony against a BPDer spouse. See http://www.bonnebridges.com/pdf/Borderline_Personality_Disorder.pdf.

A fourth problem is that, even in the unlikely event she does stay in therapy for years -- as my exW did for 15 years -- it is very VERY difficult to determine whether she is making any real progress. Because BPDers are emotionally unstable, they are always dramatically improving every two or three weeks -- in just the same way that smokers are seen to be successfully "quitting" a hundred times, over and over again. I mention this because I don't want you to go down the path I took, where I deceived myself into believing that I had seen some real improvement.
She had felt that she could have gotten full custody of our son, she would have been long gone. That told me a lot about where we are.
Yes, it speaks volumes.
She took that one comment I made about some hypothetical future relationship if we do divorce, and made it sound as if that were the reason I wanted out.
Hurt, please don't beat yourself up over making that minor comment. Indeed, you shouldn't give it a second thought. If your W is a BPDer, she has a powerful need to perceive you as the evil "perpetrator" to reinforce and "validate" her false self image of being the victim, always "the victim." Hence, if you don't provide her with a statement she can twist into "evil intent," her subconscious mind will project that evil intent onto you anyway.

This means that, if you never even open your mouth, she will be running all over town badmouthing you anyway. Part of it will be outright lies but most of it will be false projections she believes to be true (making her more persuasive). Further, as soon as you decide to walk away from this toxic marriage, she likely will be accusing you of such terrible things that this latest allegation (of your "wanting to remarry") will be far down the list. By comparison, it will likely sound like a complement at that time.
I also completely disagree with [our pastor's] "human punching bag" advice. Laying down and being a doormat is what I've done for far too long, and it's gotten me nowhere.
One reason that codependency is so rampant throughout our culture is that many churches still prescribe it as the only path to getting into heaven. That is, if your W strikes you on the right cheek, you're supposed to offer her your left cheek too.
I'm afraid to touch her right now, because I don't know how it will be misinterpreted.
That statement scares the devil out of me! I don't fear for your physical safety but, rather, for your risk of losing custody of your son.
When she looks at me, she sees her abusive uncle, or her abusive grandfather, or her dysfunctional sisters. She doesn't see me for who I am.
If she is a BPDer, that is true but it is only part of the problem. In addition, she has a desperate need to rid herself of all the bad thoughts and selfish desires she has. Having a fragile ego and being filled with self loathing, it would be extremely painful for her to deal with the guilt and shame arising from a recognition of having such bad thoughts.

This is why, on a daily basis, she will be using you as a trashcan in which to dispose of all that guilt and shame. She accomplishes that, at a subconscious level, by projecting her bad thoughts and selfish desires onto you. She fully escapes the guilt because her conscious mind really believes the thoughts are coming from YOU. With my exW, for example, I could often tell what she was thinking by taking note of what she was accusing me of wanting to do.

Hence, a BPDer will not only misinterpret things you do or say but -- in addition to that -- will blame you for every bad thought crossing her mind. This is important to know because it means it is impossible to escape being blamed. Even if you say or do absolutely NOTHING, you will still be blamed for every bad thought she has and for every misfortune that befalls her. As I said, your role is being "the perpetrator" and hers is being "the victim."
I would appreciate any feedback and perspective. Is it better to leave .... or to stay in this living hell....?
Hurt, you knew the answer to that question when we started discussing her BPD traits last summer. But, like any good caregiver -- and just as I did for a long time -- you have declined to take action. You've been putting yourself at risk in a generous effort to make sure no stone has been left unturned. Well, based on what you said today, it looks like all the stones are now upside down. Indeed, she's even started throwing them at you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #80 · (Edited)
Had a good session with my counselor tonight. She helped me consider all my options. At the end of the session, she told me to trust my gut. She said after working with me for a year, she knows my instincts are pretty much spot-on. Doesn't make the emotional impact of the decision I think I need to make any easier. But it does feel good to know that I'm not crazy.

I need to develop an escape plan while protecting myself from false accusations. I need all my ducks iin a row before I make a break. The counselor warned me that once I make my intentions known, it will get ugly qquickly. So I need to prepare now to mitigate the damage later.

If you believe in God, keep me in your prayers.

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