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I agree, but the truth is there are people who lean more towards giving and those who lean more towards taking, and you have to watch out for that BEFORE you get married. It's usually not just on one subject. But of course, sometimes that makes you more sympatico, but only if you don't resent it.
Truth. Not enough people treat their spouses the way they want to be treated. If more people did that, more people would be happy. Unfortunately, society isn't geared that way.
 

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Truth. Not enough people treat their spouses the way they want to be treated. If more people did that, more people would be happy. Unfortunately, society isn't geared that way.
There are some good balance relationships with some of the people on this forum. In real life a lot of the ones I've seen have been very unbalanced.
 

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Look, women just don't want sex as much as men do, with very few exceptions.
Respectfully, generalizing to all of a gender through all cultures is a stretch. My wife has always been into it every bit ss much as me. There have been times as recently as a year ago when keeping up with her was a challenge.

She has friends around our age who are constantly pushing on their old man for more intimacy. Maybe these are the very few exceptions, but I really doubt it.
 

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Respectfully, generalizing to all of a gender through all cultures is a stretch. My wife has always been into it every bit ss much as me. There have been times as recently as a year ago when keeping up with her was a challenge.

She has friends around our age who are constantly pushing on their old man for more intimacy. Maybe these are the very few exceptions, but I really doubt it.
I've always said there are exceptions, but overall I believe it's true.
 

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Truth. Not enough people treat their spouses the way they want to be treated. If more people did that, more people would be happy. Unfortunately, society isn't geared that way.
You mean, they don’t treat their spouses the way they’d like to be treated themselves? Or the opposite?

I think a huge issue for many is the inability to be understand what’s special to the spouse, as opposed to doing something for the spouse that has meaning to the person giving, as opposed to the person receiving.
 

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why can't she do the simplest of things for me to make me feel loved and desired in the way I need?
I doubt that she understands your requests in this way. I think you need to speak more directly and let her know that this is exactly how you feel. I don't think most women intentionally avoid doing what makes their man happy/feel good/be fulfilled. Men and women just think very differently, and we can't read minds.


We just talk about what we like, which is what I thought you were supposed to do in a marriage, and I wait for her to try any of them at any time.
Waiting for her to try something when she is not the forward type is an exercise in frustration. She probably doesn't even know you're waiting. She's probably thinking "okay, he said he wants X but he hasn't even tried to get it." You may need to get her motor running first and then gently nudge her towards those activities.
 

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@firstnamelastnamehotdog22 It feels like you both have an issue of understanding where the other is, what's actually special for your spouse. Each of you are thinking in terms of what you can do for your spouse, that you would enjoy yourself. You're not meeting your spouse where they are; you're meeting them where you are. It's kind of a selfish thing, offering up what makes sense to you, not your partner. If that's the route you want your relationship to go, that's fine, but then each of you are stuck into thinking about what might have been instead of what can be. You'll each be thinking in terms of why he or she isn't getting it, and in a way, retaliating, thinking it's intentional because they know what you want.

For some reason conversation along these lines was deemed a threadjack. Not sure why; I think it's the core issue here.
 

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A couple of things here: first, don't do stuff for her because you expect reciprocation. Do it because you feel like it, or as part of a dynamic where you each meet the other's need generously (which isn't happening now). If you don't feel like making an effort because you feel your needs are ignored, then stop. If she complains or protests, that is a separate issue to resolve.

Second, while you may feel that a good wife will reward effort with effort, not all women agree with that sentiment - particularly with respect to sex. It's fine for you to feel that way, but you need to have a serious discussion (without being needy) where you feel there is an imbalance between you.
I would like to echo what you just advised. In Glover's book NMMNG, the second point is called a covert contract and is a source of lots of marital frustration. The first point is related to the first, but I would urge caution.

If one feels that your sexual needs are ignored, then you really need to have a candid discussion. Avoiding that discussion can create damage that will take a long time to undo. It can create resentment on your part. It can confuse one's partner into thinking that you are OK with what is going on. It can create bad habits that will take a long time to cure. But most of all in the wrong mindset it can create a situation where one member of a couple will weaponize the used of sex when they stop. Sex should never be a weapon in marriage.

Again, great insight into covert contracts and the damage they cause.
 

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I would like to echo what you just advised. In Glover's book NMMNG, the second point is called a covert contract and is a source of lots of marital frustration. The first point is related to the first, but I would urge caution.

If one feels that your sexual needs are ignored, then you really need to have a candid discussion. Avoiding that discussion can create damage that will take a long time to undo. It can create resentment on your part. It can confuse one's partner into thinking that you are OK with what is going on. It can create bad habits that will take a long time to cure. But most of all in the wrong mindset it can create a situation where one member of a couple will weaponize the used of sex when they stop. Sex should never be a weapon in marriage.

Again, great insight into covert contracts and the damage they cause.
Thank you. One thing I forgot to mention is that if you have a situation (as I did) where your partner feels okay knowingly not meeting your intimate needs but getting his or her own met because "sex is different", seriously consider leaving the relationship.
 

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Oh no, I read the rest, it's just that your snarky assumption at the end made me question your motives.
I'm glad you read the rest and it's good to see you back.

The thing is you lost weight and took pictures to show her, and nothing changed. It didn't get you the sex you were hoping for and on and on with the rest.

You're doing what lots of guys who don't have the sex lives they want and getting exactly that because they like you are coming at this wrong.

I have an extraordinarily great sex life that has never waned, and it is no accident that this is the case.

I am blunt with you, because as a man I presume you can take being talked to as a man.

But if that's not for you, that's absolutely okay, you really are welcome to carry on as you are.

Best of luck.
 

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I'm all for it, except it only happens once a week, and we can't do it during the week because of other responsibilities. I also want to avoid the munchies as much as possible.
The responsibility you have to your wife and she has to you is far greater than whatever responsiblities you have going on during the week, but yes, munchies do mess up my diet but i'd rather be fat than not have that time with my wife.
 
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Discussion Starter · #114 · (Edited)
I'm glad you read the rest and it's good to see you back.

The thing is you lost weight and took pictures to show her, and nothing changed. It didn't get you the sex you were hoping for and on and on with the rest.

You're doing what lots of guys who don't have the sex lives they want and getting exactly that because they like you are coming at this wrong.

I have an extraordinarily great sex life that has never waned, and it is no accident that this is the case.

I am blunt with you, because as a man I presume you can take being talked to as a man.

But if that's not for you, that's absolutely okay, you really are welcome to carry on as you are.

Best of luck.
Yes, also another snarky comment at the end of what could have been a poignant comment. If "being blunt" is code for "I'm a total asshole to those seeking help" then I don't want you to be blunt or try to help. Keep your comments to yourself.
 
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Discussion Starter · #115 ·
@firstnamelastnamehotdog22 It feels like you both have an issue of understanding where the other is, what's actually special for your spouse. Each of you are thinking in terms of what you can do for your spouse, that you would enjoy yourself. You're not meeting your spouse where they are; you're meeting them where you are. It's kind of a selfish thing, offering up what makes sense to you, not your partner. If that's the route you want your relationship to go, that's fine, but then each of you are stuck into thinking about what might have been instead of what can be. You'll each be thinking in terms of why he or she isn't getting it, and in a way, retaliating, thinking it's intentional because they know what you want.

For some reason conversation along these lines was deemed a threadjack. Not sure why; I think it's the core issue here.
I appreciate this comment, and you are correct. I feel like my needs are expressed explicitly, and I try my best to get the information from her to fulfill her needs. The problem, at least with sex, is she "doesn't know" what she wants. I started therapy and one of the suggestions was to use Gottman card decks. They provide the questions, we just ask and discuss. Her response to the first three were "I don't know" so she either truly doesn't know what turns her on sexually, or she just doesn't want to think about it and find out. I feel like being a man makes me want to fix the situation, but I don't know what to do about someone who doesn't know what turns them on and is also reluctant to try things in order to find out.
 
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Discussion Starter · #116 ·
I doubt that she understands your requests in this way. I think you need to speak more directly and let her know that this is exactly how you feel. I don't think most women intentionally avoid doing what makes their man happy/feel good/be fulfilled. Men and women just think very differently, and we can't read minds.




Waiting for her to try something when she is not the forward type is an exercise in frustration. She probably doesn't even know you're waiting. She's probably thinking "okay, he said he wants X but he hasn't even tried to get it." You may need to get her motor running first and then gently nudge her towards those activities.
I think you're 100% correct. She has actually made that point before, saying she doesn't know when to do something, or what to do, because she doesn't know what I want at any given time. You're definitely onto something. The issue is that we've discussed this exact thing, and I don't have expectations of when and where, just that she shows interest, or talks about it, or tries anything on her own. Or is receptive to me being spontaneous.
 

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Let me start by saying that I have no idea how to word this, so be prepared for some rambling. I also might sound selfish, but that's really not where I'm coming from, so please hear me out.
...
I know not to judge a current partner based on my past experiences, but I'm having a hard time coming to terms with such a drastic change....
... so why can't she do the simplest of things for me to make me feel loved and desired in the way I need? Someone help me out here.
You're being selfish and have a lot of demands. Who takes off their underpants to go to the movies heh that made me laugh. It's unsanitary. If you have sex pretty regularly and she respects you and loves you that's enough. You mix love and lust and wrote an essay about all your needs and they're all sexual. You may be a sex addict.
 

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Let me start by saying that I have no idea how to word this, so be prepared for some rambling. I also might sound selfish, but that's really not where I'm coming from, so please hear me out.

I know not to judge a current partner based on my past experiences, but I'm having a hard time coming to terms with such a drastic change. Before I met my wife, my sex life was semi adventurous. I had girlfriends that were giving when it came to sex, and they had no problem asking for things they liked. I had more sex, in more places, and I didn't have to ask for things that I liked. When I first met my wife (then girlfriend) she was the same. We had sex when we wanted, where we wanted (within reason) and it was fun. We've now been married for almost 10 years, and together for 15, and she is not the same person sexually that she once was, and I am. Where opportunity should allow for more spontaneous sex lives, she doesn't follow my spirit. An example of this started within the last 10 years, since we bought a house. We have more room, we have a fenced in backyard, we have privacy, and yet we have only had sex in our bedroom and a few times on the couch. To try to spice things up, I have bought toys that don't get used, I have bought lingerie that she says she loves but doesn't wear after trying it on initially, and I try to randomly bring out moments that could be adventurous, like asking her to take off her panties before going into a movie, or to use a panty vibrator when we got out. Those things have also been turned down, and from past experience I know that there isn't a point in asking again. The smallest of these things is me asking her for sexy pictures, which are generally turned down, so I might get them once in a 6 month period.

So, after all this time asking for things, and coming up with ideas, I started working on myself. I started getting in better shape, I lift weights, I've lost some weight, and I took pictures of myself that are honestly great, and I sent them to her. She said she loved them, but nothing has changed. If anything, my self esteem has gotten worse, because anything we do sexually is my idea, and I mean that literally. So now, if she agrees to anything that I ask (and I ask rarely at this point because of the history of rejection) I feel like she is just doing it to get me to leave her alone. She doesn't bring up any of this stuff at all, even in conversation, and I have started to have emotional issues because of it. She has said before she doesn't know what I want, but I am explicit in the things I need, and have discussed how the things I like don't need to be constant, and that I would just like her to participate so I don't feel like everything is one sided. I ask her what she wants and needs from me, and I try my best to do those things, but she doesn't reciprocate. It's like she doesn't have a single thought about sex and what she likes and wants, even though she does sometimes tell me when I ask.

To add to this, she also tells me that she didn't like sex with her exes, and that I am the best she's ever had, and I am very attractive to her, but she only tells me this stuff when I start asking what the problem is. So, this brings me to current day.

We have started getting high and having sex once a week, almost always on Saturday night. I have to say, it is amazing. She is open to things, she talks dirty, she will wear sexy clothes, we take pictures together. It is everything I've ever wanted, except it recently became a problem. When she is high, if I ask to try something, she will. I recently asked her to try deepthroating, and I loved it, and she was great at it. Then, a few weeks ago, I asked her to try it when we were sober. She immediately said she couldn't do it. I know for a fact she can, but she didn't want to try, and it turned into a whole issue where I told her sex isn't fun for me because he doesn't put in any effort, or she doesn't have fun with it, and I constantly feel like a problem because I have to ask for something I want every single time, or it will not happen at all.

Since that time, I have decided to give up. As much as I hate saying it, I don't think she will ever change, and I'm not asking for a huge change. I have told her everything that I like, and left the rest to her, which means it won't happen. If I bring it up, I feel like **** for having to ask. I haven't asked for pictures in months, and I haven't received any. I don't ask for blowjobs nearly as much, and I don't really feel like having sex much either. If I give her oral sex, it's because I like doing it, and I don't want reciprocation, but I give in because I don't want her acting weird when I turn her down.

Through the years we have talked about this and I have tried to come up with solutions for her. I'll use the picture thing as an example. She said she didn't know when I wanted pictures, and I told her anytime was better than never. She also said she never knows what I want at any given time, but I said it isn't like I want it all at once, or there has to be a specific time, other than more often. So to help, we agreed to make a list of things we like, and the frequency we would like them, and just roll dice. Whatever the dice lands on, we look at the number on the list and we do that. FYI, we never did that. So, after another year, we talked about making a spin wheel using an app, just spin it and that's what she/we could do. That also never got used.

In giving up on my sexual needs, we now follow a strict routine. When we do have sex, we perform oral on each other for a bit, then she immediately goes to doggy style, which is her favorite, and that's it. She has an orgasm, I do, and that's it. No discussion otherwise, nothing fun for both parties, I don't even know if she enjoys it because she never talks to me about it. I just go through the motions. At this point I feel like I should just take what I can get and keep my mouth shut. We are going on a trip for our 10 year anniversary, and the place looks great. Outdoor shower, outdoor beds, secluded. I have low expectations, but lots of fantasies.

I'm looking for advice. Am I the issue? Am I asking too much, literally or figuratively? The frequency of my requests has dropped drastically, and I don't even talk about things that I like or would like to try anymore. My self esteem is at an all time low, but just with my wife. I have high self esteem in every other aspect of my life. I am a good person, I am attractive, I am educated, I'm sweet and funny, and people recognize that about me and relay that to my wife, who also says the same things to others. But sexually, I am not satisfied in the least, mostly because I don't have any fun. I have so many examples of times where she flat out turned me down, and others where she just started dropping the ball, even on things that she started (Steak and BJ day was fun 4 years ago, but she forgot it one year, then was too tired last year, and this year she talked it up, but came home, didn't mention it anymore, then sat on the couch and ate cereal until it was time for bed.) On the flip side, I never forget Valentines day. I am just at a loss, I don't know what to do, I don't know what changed. I even considered that she might be cheating on me, but literally nothing else has changed or is negative in our relationship. She isn't distance in any other aspect.

I would also like to add that I do have a lot of requests when it comes to sex, but I don't put pressure on her for them. We just talk about what we like, which is what I thought you were supposed to do in a marriage, and I wait for her to try any of them at any time. When she told me she would like a hug when she got home from work, I did that. I do random acts to show her that I love her, like cards, flowers, candy, jewelry. I'm going to propose again on our anniversary, I have it all planned, so why can't she do the simplest of things for me to make me feel loved and desired in the way I need? Someone help me out here.
While I do understand that you are suffering from a lack of interest in sex with your wife, I didn't read anything in here about how much you love to participate in just your wife's pleasure.

Who cums when you are on the receiving end of a BJ? A lot of your post talks about BJ. Are you aware that BJ is all about you and your O? You are wanting your wife to focus your sex life centered around BJ?

Do you believe that your wife cums doing doggie style? (the clitoris is the pleasure point of orgasm for women - some women are able to have a semi-orgasm with doggie sex but the biggest percentage of women need clitoral stimulation) I'm going to go out on a huge limb here and say that the possible reason your wife is exhibiting that doggie style is her go-to - is because she has given up in her mind that she will get the clitoral stimulation she needs to orgasm - and just feels that you are after your own O - so she just wants to get to the part that she feels is the most important to you. She has given up on fulfilling her own pleasure. More on that in a minute.

Did you realize that your wife is throwing you BIG information when she asks for a hug?

One of the things that I feel like I'm hearing is that there may be a perception within your wife that all these things you do for her all have the ulterior motive of you getting sex. Your expectations wherever you go with her - like the 10th anniversary trip - are about how you can amp up the sex.

"Steak and BJ Day" - wow, terrific. Bet she was looking forward to that. I want to flip the table a sec here and ask you if you were hit with only pleasuring her without ending with an O yourself, how often would you feel like having sex?

Insofar as the picture thing - men are generally and widely thought to be very visual. But that isn't the generally and widely accepted genre for women. It's even a bit of a joke that women get these d*ck pics and are rolling their eyes. This is NOT something that is pleasuring your wife - or else she would enthusiastically agree to do it.

Which brings me to "enthusiastically agree" - sexual interactions between a husband and wife is still about enthusiastic agreement. If your wife isn't in that mode, I assure you there is something amiss in your relationship where she has given up on ever being treated like she has any say or right to her own pleasure. When I read your words here, I sense you are communicating that you are deprived YOURSELF. But not once have you posted anything about knowing what HER pleasures are. And I'm saying all this not with the intent of putting you down - but the intent of enlightening you. You have to be willing to completely set aside what you think you know about your wife's pleasure and start completely over.

If you are willing to strip away your pre-conceptions and be an empty cup open to learning about the minds of women in general when it comes to addressing their own pleasure - owning it, accepting it, exploring it - then the Netflix special on the Principles of Pleasure is a documentary that explains the situation that women face when it comes to sex. Now, the doc explores a lot of different women - women of color, trans, bi, gay - but also hetero - with principles that apply to women in general.

In our societies, women's pleasure is secondary to the pleasure of men. Sure, you can find exceptions - but by and large, MOST women are trained to please men. You see it in every aspect of life. We are cheerleaders for mens's sports, the sexy dressed side-kick for men who conquering the world in movies, and the empty-headed body in porn focused on bending over or opening our mouths so men can have O's - even being slapped around and passed around like a rag doll.

Why do women put up with this? Because they are trained from a young age to do so. Their role models are other women who have spent their lives doing these subservient roles. And women who stand up for themselves are called ugly names and considered to be "ball-busters" while men who are in dominant roles are viewed as strong, powerful and highly admired.

The movement of #metoo is very, very slowly changing things. Women have HAD it and are fighting back against the mistreatment. And we compare this mistreatment to the point of saying "Well, I don't do THAT to my wife."

And women say to themselves, "Well I don't get treated BADLY." So, the gray area of women who are stuck in accepting their lives without embracing their rights to pleasure, justify their mindset with "things aren't THAT bad."

I put to you that your wife has an incredible potential for pleasure - her OWN - that is not centered around YOURS. It's a huge leap for you to turn your mind around and look at your wife and truly see her. It must be extremely difficult for men to even begin this journey - because it's already difficult for WOMEN to begin this journey. We have not been taught that it's okay in any way. The locked rooms in our minds are barriers to allowing ourselves to think in terms of "Hey, pleasure is not only okay, but it's a human right and I am human."

I know I asked my own husband to watch Principles of Pleasure with me - at several points, he fell asleep. Then, I just said, "I'd really like it if you could watch this in your own time, please. It's important." The discussions cover everything I have said to him and tried to get him to understand.

But no matter how many times I have tried to talk to him about what pleasures me (hugs, funny conversations, foot rubs, just touching me all over with no intent to lead to sex), he does not understand the sexual aspects of how women approach sex.

If women and sex is confusing, I totally get it - but allow me to explain. If you take a woman on a date and she's into you, that whole preparation for the date and all the conversation and flirting goes on over a period of TIME. If it looks like she is hot and ready after all of that prep - it's because of all of that prep. Also, women are trained to pleasure men. And women like to be liked. Sex is often a way of receiving what they may perceive as love - however briefly. That attention and adoration may only last a short time, but it's often better to them than nothing. So, they may be willing to do BJ's in exchange for the brief attention and adoration. Then comes the often expected disconnect - and the women just hit repeat with a different guy. Chasing love in all the wrong places.

Deep abiding relationships require a lot of work. The myth of spontaneous desire only happens in the movies. We all judge ourselves by that. We also judge ourselves by porn. When we pull back that curtain and truly realize the impact on recorded, observational sex on the people participating (and that their motivation to do so is money), then we can demolish these fantasies out of our real life sex lives.

I feel like it would be so impactful if my husband could find pleasure in giving me pleasure also. But it's just a "task" - a punch in a ticket towards sex - and I know it. There's this rush to get to the "good part" and skip over the lead-up. I can't get a warm loving hug without that little "ooooOOOOOUUUU, yeah, baby" response. I want him to fully understand that conversation is foreplay - even if the conversation isn't about sex - it's about SEEING the other person, having a true connection. Sexual release may or may not be how men perceive love and connection - but for women, it's about so much more. It's about feeling safe, which is paramount for women opening themselves up to the vulnerability of sex. It's about trusting that other person to respect and honor how the WOMAN experiences pleasure - and not assuming that the pleasure is about a man's organ. Women perceive sex with their minds. They build their desire in their minds. And they are often made to feel ashamed of the ways they perceive and receive pleasure.

Countless times I read how men write degrading comments about how "She wants me to rub her feet and have a CONVERSATION" like it it some kind of trick or task akin to cleaning out a horse stall. What I would say to men is that: the men out there who truly enjoy all the ways of pleasuring a woman - THESE are the men who are having amazing sex with women. Finding a string of women who appear to just love giving BJ's - what is behind that are women who get what they believe they are only entitled to - that short span of pseudo love and attention they are chasing. Afterwards, they are empty and lacking in the ability to pursue and own their own pleasure.

And just FYI, the clitoris is like your penis - be it but small. It's powerful and filled with pleasure sensors so sensitive, there are times you can even touch it. Famously, the movie Deep Throat teased that the star of that movie had a clit in her throat. I can't help but wonder which guy fantasy came up with that idea. A BJ ultimately is only about the guy. I think women probably don't mind doing this to some degree - but after awhile, if that is the guy's highest priority fantasy and way of having sex, it's completely selfish. He can act grateful and happy all he wants, but on the flip side, it's selfish sex. And for some women who wake up and realize that the sex they are having is one-sided, in their minds, they finally just find ways to passively stop doing it. It's not about that they don't want to interact with a pleasurable sexual encounter - it's that the entire approach is one-sided, as is doggie sex. A woman's mind will eventually tell her she's just a vessel. You can argue that isn't true all you want - but I'm telling you this from the other side, the receiving end.

This information may be a 2X4 between the eyes. But, seriously, if you are wanting something different in your relationship, you will lean forward and watch Principles of Pleasure and take notes. Open yourself up to the woman's experience and set aside everything you think you know. Women are amazing. And if you cultivate a genuine interest in your wife and focus on the things that enhance her connection with you - patiently and authentically - you are in for a whole new world of a relationship. If you are impatient at any point, she will recoil. She's lived a life of setting aside her own pleasure and it will take a huge change on your part for her to trust that you are sincere and that she is deserving of the pleasure she can't allow herself to pursue.



Principles of Pleasure
 

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Wait a minute- she had to ask you for a hug when she gets home from work? That wasn't an automatic thing for you? You are asking for blowjob's and adventure in your sex life and she's asking you for a hug. That should tell you all you need to know. Step up your affection and romance game. Women are not all horny they are emotional creatures and they need foreplay in the form of a deep connection to feel sexy and uninhibited.
Get high and munch on carrot sticks. Rules? Schedules? Ugh you are taking all the fun out of sex. Stop. Take care of the emotional connection. Make her feel like you want more than sex from her and she'll give you more sex.
 
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