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Discussion Starter #1
The last couple days, this topic seems to have come up a lot and I want to have an open conversation about it in order to help some of the men here. The topic is being the "Nice Guy".

There's a book "No More Mr. Nice Guy". All too often we hear "I'm non-confrontational…I'm a NICE guy".

I'm tired of this mislabeling.

We need to start differentiating the idea of a "Nice Guy" versus a "Doormat Guy"

Here is the definition of Nice in how it applies to personality. No where does it say, non-confrontational, accepts being disrespected, puts oneself lower in status than the others around them.

Nice: pleasing; agreeable; delightful: a nice visit. amiably pleasant; kind: They are always nice to strangers.

Here's the definition of doormat in how it applies to personality.

Doormat: Slang One who submits meekly to domination or mistreatment by others. Informal a person who offers little resistance to ill-treatment by others

Let's define a strong "manly" man, or "Alpha" if you will (not alpha by the book just the perception) in regards to how he acts in a relationship.
Demands respect
Confronts issues when problems arise
Stands up for himself
Has a strong sense of self
Demands others to treat him as well as he treats others

Now the big question. Can you be those things and be NICE? Yes Can you be those things and be a DOORMAT? No.

For those who make excuses for themselves about being a doormat by calling yourself "NICE", you need to stop. You need to recognize what you are and what you aren't. That's the first step to fixing yourself. Be honest with yourself. As much as it hurts to say "I've been a doormat" in a relationship, it's also empowering, because a TRULY nice guy, can't stop being a "Nice guy" but a DOORMAT, usually wants to stop being a doormat. By properly defining yourself, you're giving yourself the motivation to make a positive change.
 

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On another forum I'm on, which is pretty much entirely women with a focus on homebirth, natural parenting and feminism we talk about the Inner Good Girl. The part of us that is afraid to cause conflict, who wants everyone happy and comfortable. Who is afraid to question anyone in authority, particularly those in the medical profession.

Maybe Nice Guy, as opposed to guy who is nice?
 

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Great post OP

As a woman that appreciates and adores "nice guys" I get frustrated with the no more Mr Nice Guy references.

Nice guys are all that and more, they are good men. Good role models for future men.

I would not be with a man that wasn't a nice guy but I have no desire to be with a door mat.
A door mat to me is self depreciating, weak willed, insipid.

I think men try to box themselves in too much trying not to be a nice guy.

My man is a nice guy with me, he is kind, caring, romantic, attentive and loads of fun.
He is alpha in his career and very successful.
He is alpha when it comes to our sex life which I find incredibly sexy.
He is the perfect combination for me.
 

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I am married to a Genuine Nice Guy. He is not much of a confronter by nature, but I feel this is largely due to his temperament makeup.... When I learned of his "1 out of 16" type... the ISFJ .. I almost fell off my chair laughing...but yet I was amazed.....it was sooooo HIM. If any type is most prone to being a DOORMAT.....it IS this temperament ~ It is even mentioned in the ISFJ's Profile - for goodness sake. This however, does not mean my husband is ~ I am just pointing out what it said.


Good thing I'm not a Witch.
He knew I had a very soft sensitive side when he met me in my teens, otherwise he wouldn't have wanted me.

However I am the Confronter ~ I enjoy it !......but my reasoning is...I want peace & harmony in my relationships & my marriage ...Also Justice is important to me......I love & adore my husband & many of his ways, I wouldn't trade him for anything in this world... He does it for me... And he's got the patience I lack... he gets me to laugh at myself & calm my feisty azz down at times.. ..But that just makes us good together. :)

Some men really need help overcoming some of these things.... I hate to see them spit upon, it really ticks me off - especially from the ALpha males who think they are far superior...I call BS, they have their issues too. And the women who abuse ...what does this speak about them......Personally I think all the nice Guys ought to kick the bi*ches to the curb... I'd support them a 100%...but that is manning up ...after all.

I like the book "No More Mr nice Guy"....I bought it just for curiosity, we went through some of the beginning pages together, he fit some of those, and some more like half truths.

I love & accept him as he is.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Not real sure your spouse is going to be labeling you as nice when you do any of these things.
I'm curious why you say this?

My wife thinks I'm one of the nicest guys in the world.

You don't have to confront an issue like a jerk. You can still confront things "nicely"
If anyone, my wife included, was dumping on me, I'm going to address it and not accept it. But I can still be a nice guy.
I try to treat everyone with the upmost in respect. I will give you the shirt off my back if you are in need. And specifically to my wife, I'm an incredibly loving and attentive to her needs. But I do expect the same in return. If I give my wife the respect she deserves and she doesn't return that respect, she's going to hear about it. That doesn't define me as "not nice".
 

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I'm curious why you say this?

My wife thinks I'm one of the nicest guys in the world.

You don't have to confront an issue like a jerk. You can still confront things "nicely"
If anyone, my wife included, was dumping on me, I'm going to address it and not accept it. But I can still be a nice guy.
I try to treat everyone with the upmost in respect. I will give you the shirt off my back if you are in need. And specifically to my wife, I'm an incredibly loving and attentive to her needs. But I do expect the same in return. If I give my wife the respect she deserves and she doesn't return that respect, she's going to hear about it. That doesn't define me as "not nice".
Brilliant post
 

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It doesn't surprise me you are one of those Nicer men Dad&Hubby...as I noticed your posts from the very beginning....was impressed with the depth -just about all resonated with me...but I am terribly biased towards the GOOD guys.

Your chosen username speaks to your devotion to family. :smthumbup:
Thank you SA. Your post earlier also resonated with me because I USED to be a doormat. In my first marriage, I was the CLASSIC doormat. I read alot of these posts and I see where these guys struggle and I know the feelings they're going through because I lived it for 6 years. I woke up one morning was getting ready for work and looked at myself in the mirror and couldn't identify with who was looking back at me. That's when changes were made and my divorce happened etc. I was speaking with my best friend throughout my life and he summed me up during that period as "Man, I was looking at you and it was like you didn't have your soul anymore." That sucked but it helped me realize the difference between being the nice guy I always was, and being a doormat.

It is easier for a nice guy to become a doormat, I agree with that assessment you made earlier.
 

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I think I'm the poster child for this conversation.

I used to be the doormat nice guy w/ alph wife that led to a sexless marriage after ILYNILWYA... I got much better over almost three years.

I'm still "A Nice Guy" but now I'm very quick to stand up for myself against my wife.

Its sort of the I'll be Nice unless you cross me then it will be dealt with in a quick matter.

I'm a better father... kids know who's in charge. They think Moms crazy.
More decisive and when it comes down to it I make the final say on family decisions.
My wife defers to me on any family issues.

You can be Nice just don't be a doormat.
Sometimes Men have to be woken up...I was.
I'm creating a new marriage.
Not afraid at all to stand up for myself against my wife.
She awoke a new husband after ILYNILWYA she is falling in love with her new husband.

In the end its easier and more satisfying to fix the wife you have.
 

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I'm curious why you say this?

If I give my wife the respect she deserves and she doesn't return that respect, she's going to hear about it. That doesn't define me as "not nice".
I say this because people generally have different ways of looking at things and men and women in particular have some very well characterized differences. Miscommunication and misunderstanding seem to abound in a lot of the male female dialog especially regarding sensitive issues. This results in marriage partners feeling "hurt" and finding themselves concluding that the partner who hurt them is not "nice".

But first and foremost, I'm here to learn. Could I ask you please to give me some pointers on how I can confront issues, stand up for myself and demand to be treated as well as I treat my partner without having her feel that I'm not being "nice"?

Believe me, I need the help and I can use any suggestion you can give me later on this evening and see how it works for me
 

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Speaking as a woman, I think it's very possible for a guy who's trying to be 'alpha' to turn into a bully when demanding respect or standing up for himself. It's all in how it comes out -- you can demand respect in a 'nice' way; most importantly, by being worthy of respect. A dictator can demand respect, for example, but what he will get instead is fear.

A nice man can stand up for himself with strength that doesn't cross the line into demeaning the other person to make himself feel better. A truly nice man won't resort to that kind of behavior.

Thanks for starting this thread, OP. I totally agree with you. I don't think 'Nice' and 'Alpha' are mutually exclusive. And I don't think 'Nice' and 'Doormat' are the same thing.
 

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Based on my own experience in my soon-to-be-ended marriage, I would say that it's important to not be needy. Take care of responsibilities you've been given. When you've done something wrong, own up to it and fix it - don't shove the blame onto someone else. Be truthful and faithful to promises you've made.

So those things would be respectable behaviors in my book. Totally possible to be this and still be nice, which I would equate with kindness and empathy.

Does that help?
 

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Based on my own experience in my soon-to-be-ended marriage, I would say that it's important to not be needy. Take care of responsibilities you've been given. When you've done something wrong, own up to it and fix it - don't shove the blame onto someone else. Be truthful and faithful to promises you've made.

So those things would be respectable behaviors in my book. Totally possible to be this and still be nice, which I would equate with kindness and empathy.

Does that help?
Thanks very much for answering, but not really. These are all good things to do but I can do them all day long and still not be respected or even be actively disrespected. I'm really not seeing how to "demand respect in a 'nice' way"
 

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Thanks very much for answering, but not really. These are all good things to do but I can do them all day long and still not be respected or even be actively disrespected. I'm really not seeing how to "demand respect in a 'nice' way"
You enforce your boundaries. You can't make anyone do anything, but you can deliver "consequences" if you will for behavior.

If you friend is disrespectful to you, what can you do to "demand respect." You can't make him not belittle you, but you can enforce your boundaries. Perhaps it starts out by telling him that you will be happy to talk to him again when he can be respectful, then walking out of the bar. Maybe it means not doing the things that friends would do (such as help move a tree stump) while telling him that his lack of respect has caused a distance. It might even mean ending the friendship and demonstrating your own value.

Again, you can't make anyone do anything, but you can demonstrat your own value and self worth by sticking up for yourself and enforcing you own boundaries. Doing that will earn you respect.
 
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