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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
All the progress I thought we had made and then he throws me a curveball.

He read where I posted his chats with the OW on another anon board. (I had offered to pull them up for him so he could see how other people outside the sitch view the convo's he is having with this woman since he seems to believe he did nothing wrong)
He did not like what everyone had to say. He says my 'buddies' (it's an anon board, no one knows who the hell I am!) are ganging up on him to make him look like the bad guy.
He also said he is 'on to me' and that I am just setting him up with my 'bs conditions' so that he will fail and that I can then divorce him.

Yes, me trying to facilitate some much needed changes in our marriage after months of trying to get thru to him and being ignored is now magically ME setting HIM up.
He said he knows this because I am a liar. When I asked him when I ever lied he brought up those stupid surveillance recordings he made to 'catch' me having sex with his friend while he was at work.
Nothing happened and there is nothing on those tapes.
He is continuing to say that there was nothing to those chats he was having with the OW. When I pointed out that she has been calling him 'babe' and 'sunshine' for the last 2-3 months, he says he hadn't noticed.
He STILL claims she is JUST a friend and that I am the liar/cheater who is trying to set him up so I can divorce him since that is what I supposedly want.
Says he loves me and if I don't want to be married anymore to just kick him out and quit playing games.

I was pissed and lost my **** with him and yelled back & forth till our 6 yr old woke up.

What has happened to my husband? Who it this man I am living with and how do I get back the one I married?!
This is not who he was a year ago. What is happening here?!

I feel like I am going insane. I am so hurt and sad right now!
Why the fvck would I set him up, and then ask him to commit to 12 weeks of MC?

It's like he has no empathy anymore.
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You surprised him the other night with your conditions.

CAKE EATER. He likes having multiple women stroking his ego. He is not going to give that up very easily. I can't even believe you would engage him in a discussion of it anymore. It's the same old stuff you already talked about, like your letter and conditions the other night never happened. Why go back there and retreat from the progress you've already made?

My advice to you is to keep it simple. The more extraneous information and arguments you engage in, the easier it is for him to wiggle out of what you need. Meet your conditions or divorce. Period. No other items are relevant. The only thing you should discuss is "meet my conditions or we get divorced."

You were wrong to even engage in this discussion with him again. You should have refused to talk to him about it. Discussion was over the other night. You gave him your conditions. He agreed. Now he is backtracking.

Surprise, surprise. Cheaters are liar. Your husband is a liar. Believe only his actions.

What consequence is there for not meeting the minimum conditions you have to stay married to him? If it's not divorce, then he is not going to stop eating cake. He doesn't want to lose you. You have all the power in this relationship, but you are too weak to use it. You have been so weak for so long, he does not believe you will stand up to him. He thinks you will just go on tolerating his behavior. It's all about him, even when you're fighting, it is an ego stroke to him, you love him, other women love him, everyone loves him.

File for divorce. Detach, discuss only divorce issues until he meets your conditions.
 

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Yep, he bamboozled you the other day. Now the real guy is starting to show up again.

File for divorce, then physically separate. Then you will find out if he really wants to reconcile, or if he's just playing games.

As others have said, you have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it.
 

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I do think the fact that the both of you had sex with other people in your marriage, even though you both agreed to it, changes the landscape of what is acceptable going forward. There is no doubt in my mind that the open marriage experience has permanently damaged your boundaries and is playing into what is happening now.
 

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I do think the fact that the both of you had sex with other people in your marriage, even though you both agreed to it, changes the landscape of what is acceptable going forward. There is no doubt in my mind that the open marriage experience has permanently damaged your boundaries and is playing into what is happening now.
True or maybe not. But this doesn't help OP move forward in her life.

OP, the husband you married is gone and you can't have him back...!! You can't have him back. You can't make him be someone he isn't. He is who he is, untill he choose to change. And this choice is up to him to make. Untill he do, you have lost him.

Listen to Will Kane, he is spot on. You need to carry through. You said A, now you must say B in order to protect your own self. Don't argue with him anymore, just detach and enforce consequences. He made his choice already: "I want cake".

Take care of you.
 

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True or maybe not. But this doesn't help OP move forward in her life.
I don't want anyone to think I'm giving her husband an "out" on this. His behavior is damaging to the marriage to say the least. However, this was even more damaging:

We went thru a 'need to spice up our marriage' phase. He found someone for me, and then someone for himself. We each went off and did our thing. When I was done with mine, it was over. When he had done his thing it morphed into some sort of emotional thing with constant texts back and forth, pet names, etc. I confronted her and put a stop to that part, and he said that she 'sucked him in'.
He also ended up getting REALLY jealous of me and my piece, accusing me of doing stuff when I wasn't. He even set up recording equipment to try and 'catch' me. He still claims to this day that there is evidence of me doing stuff on the tape even though I didn't, and I can't hear anything when I listen to it.
The question I have is: Were proper boundaries set up and understood between you two after this "experiment"? Was there an understanding before you went into this?

I think you both F-ed up by willingly bringing others into your marriage in the first place. Once you let that Genie out of the bottle, getting it back in can be a b1tch! No good can ever come from bringing others into your marriage, be it an agreed upon open marriage, an affair or opposite sex friends. It fvckes up the "couple dynamics". A marriage isn't 3 or 4 people, it's 2. Unless you get him to acknowledge the damage the experiment caused and agree & commit to strong boundaries, you can kiss this marriage good bye.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thank you for all the replies.
This morning he appologized for getting upset about me posting his chats and says he understands why I did it.

The difference between last night and this morning is that he is sober.

I get that I messed up this relationship and I took the bait last night.
I have made so, so many mistakes in my marriage and I am so heartsick that 15 years of my life may not survive this and that I am forever changing the landscape of my children's lives.

So far he is meeting my conditions so I will keep up with my end of the bargain.
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Is there any history of personality disorder in his family that you know of? (siblings, parents, aunts uncles etc)
Yes.
I thought the same thing and found something that describes him almost perfectly:

http://www.m.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/paranoid-personality-disorder

I haven't the first clue how to even begin treading that minefield with him.
Right now I am just to exhausted to even think.
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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Yesterday was his first day back to work after the holidays and I think the time apart has been a good thing.

I wrote him an email about the paranoid personality disorder and asked him to consider it in light of the kinds of issues his dad & brothers have. I also sent him an article on the effects of alcohol on memory and M's affect on memory and paranoia.

He didn't write anything back but he told me he read them and didn't seem upset that I sent them. He did tell me that he thought about me all day.

As far as my conditions go he has been reading the book and has given me all his user names and passwords. The councelling apt is next week and he still needs to find an IC for himself.
He hasn't deleted anyone off his FB yet or sent any letters to those women yet. I asked him when he would do this and he said he didn't want to delete anything or contact anyone until he knew I had a chance to see everything I wanted to see and copy any conversations that I wanted. I told him I would do that and let him know when I had what I wanted.

After the fight we had nigh before last I realized that there are certain elements of this mess that we just can't discuss right now and that we will have to address with the help of a professional in councelling.

I have had a lot of time to think and I feel I have pinpointed what it is about all this that bothers me the most. His attitude is not that he is doing anything wrong that he has to fix, but that I think that he is doing things wrong and that he has to do what I want him to do.
I am tempted to ask him to write a list that only includes the things he thinks he is doing wrong in our marriage (not things like 'not making Lily happy').
His statements like ' I guess I can't be myself', or 'looks like I just need to shut up and colour', or the sarcastic 'I'm always the bad guy.', just to name a few make me feel like he really doesn't get (or doesn't want to get) what part he is playing in all this.

I know people will say I just need to leave him, but I am not ready to give up on our marriage, especially before we have even tried councelling.
Maybe a professional will know how to get thru to him in ways that I don't and help him realize that if he doesn't start owning his sh!t vs going thru the motions that he will destroy his marriage.
He says he really wants to save the marriage, and for the moment, I will take him at his word.

I told him that 2013 was a crossroads and I mean it. I love who I know my husband is capable of being when he is not wallowing in insecurity and self pity. I am willing to put time and effort into helping him rediscover the kind, compassionate, and confident person he once was. But I have finally realized that I can only help someone who is willing to help themselves and I have flipped the hourglass and set in stone the amount of time and energy that I will invest.

I really hope he figures this out, because I cannot do it for him.
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I've been going thru my posts on this and other threads here at TAM.

The word that comes to mind is 'frenetic', in its more addled sense.

I feel like I am attempting to compartmentalize different aspects of my marriage/husband, as if the issues we/he has would somehow be easier to deal with separately. I don't know if that is logical, rational, or even healthy.
I guess I am used to thinking my way out of problems....if I learn enough about something I can fix it. I just have to turn it around in my mind enough, consider every angle, every possibility...*sigh*...it seems to work well in every other aspect of my life except my marriage.

So, forgive the rambling, this place has sort of become my journal.
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No, Lily, you can't figure things out for your husband, and you can't make him change anything if he doesn't want to.

I think your energy is far better spend establishing your own boundaries and figure out how to enforce them and act upon them in a healthy way.

Best wishes for you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
No, Lily, you can't figure things out for your husband, and you can't make him change anything if he doesn't want to.

I think your energy is far better spend establishing your own boundaries and figure out how to enforce them and act upon them in a healthy way.

Best wishes for you.
Thank you.
I am reading about the 180 and think I just need to take its advice.
This is just so emotionally exhausting. I have talked and talked and argued and fought and now I am just tired.
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I know, I know. Someday soon I may take my own medicine.
I hear you! :) it always so much easier to give other people advice when you can view their situation from a safe and dispassionate distance. But when you are I the situation and have so much invested in it, and your identidy is entwined within it...then it becomes almost insurmountable to decide on a course of action and stick to it.
Would that we could all view our own situations from the vantage point of the dispationate observer. :)
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
How are you, lily?
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Thanx for asking Bee. I wish I had better news for u.
I had to quit posting for a while b/c I just started feeling like a broken record.

So, how am I doing.
Well, I feel sad, angry, hurt, invalidated, betrayed, insulted, ignored, unimportant, abandoned, despised, and defeated.

H says that he can tell that I just hate him and am just looking for something to b!tch about.
Turns out he has been drinking between 12 and 20 oz of vodka a night, but I am being unreasonable in wanting him to quit and get help.
He says the chats & phone call with the OW were harmless and she is just a friend and that I am just inventing more stuff to b!tch about.
Basically-I am completely unreasonable and hateful and am just out to label him as 'the bad guy'
I am also not meeting his needs and only ever think of myself. Yes, you read that right. I am the problem here and everything would be fine if I would just quit finding things to nit-pick about.

*sigh* On the upside, I had my 1st appt with my therapist on Monday. She seems very nice, kind of grandmotherly, and seems genuinely interested in helping me and my H.
She wants me to meet with her for one more IC session, then with H & I together.

I know lots of ppl will say that this is too big to fix, that I should pack my bags, etc.
Despite what he thinks, I do love him and will not throw in the towel just yet.
I do have a timeline, and am still hopeful that he will figure it out in time...but FVCK!
The interim sux!!! Roller coaster is an understatement. I feel more like these poor blokes:
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=b8jaEp8aA4Q&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Db8jaEp8aA4Q
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Hi Lily,
Hang in there, I think he will respond to clear boundaries.
Realize that some here advise divorce with a view for reconcilation, so not everyone saying it thinks you should just end it.
Anyway you have a lot of strength and it sound like you are a keeper for your husband so I hope he wakes up!
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Hi Lily,
Hang in there, I think he will respond to clear boundaries.
Realize that some here advise divorce with a view for reconcilation, so not everyone saying it thinks you should just end it.
Anyway you have a lot of strength and it sound like you are a keeper for your husband so I hope he wakes up!
Thank u for saying so, D.
It helps to be reminded of that. :)

Today the roller coaster took an upturn with him apologizing in his way.
He also dumped out his vodka and is going to cold turkey it.
We both know that can be dangerous and he has been reading up on symptoms to look out for.
He has some homemade beer in the pantry if things get too bad.

I am so tired today and a strong cold front is blowing in so my arthritis is going crazy.

I'm going to try and take care of myself a bit this weekend and, with any luck, it will be an uneventful one.
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