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Discussion Starter #1
I have a dry marriage and I see there are lots of others on these blogs who suffer the same. I don't want to leave my wonderful partner, but I really cannot live another 20 years without a love life. So I need tips - more than ideas, though. I would like people to post success stories here. Give me hope. Give me evidence. Talk about results and how they really happen. Talk about misteps, goals, and accomplishments.

So here is my story, to get us started. I've been married 18 years. The first 5 were fantastic on the intimacy scene. then a series of stressful things happened - a very bad job for me, a promotion for my husband that made his job very busy, a death, a fight with my mother-in-law that caused a bad riff between us. it is not surprising that a bit of distance developed, but then we really never recovered. (my mother and law and I did recover after about 3 yrs - it is all okay now)

Fast forward, 10 years after all that happened. How did we get here? I think he has become convinced that it is my fault - but mostly I find that his timing stinks. I find he never has time. So, (1) I decided I can't take this lack of love life. (2) I have read every blog I can find (we tried counselling and it failed miserably. Neither he nor the counsellor wanted to talk about sex and he thought the whole thing was a huge waste of time). (3) I have been talking it up like fury. "Remember when..." "I sure do miss...." etc. It took quite a while for this to make an impression - I think he was quite skeptical that I was serious.

okay, so that prepared us. Now is just the shaky step to actual action. bodies are not what they used to be, so I bought some lube. (Boy was that embarassing, but actually, they were really, really nice at the sex store). I insisted on meeting him on a business trip (good to be away). Unfortunately he insisted on going out for dinner, even though I had said quite a number of times that I thought it would be good to order dinner in - treat ourselves (wink, wink, nudge-nudge). When we got to the room, finally, at 8:30, he wanted to read the paper. Okay. whatever (really, some people are so dense!). Finally I presented the lube, which surprised him quite a bit! And we sort of went at it. It was awful. Ironically, a couple in the next door room had a very successful romp just at the moment things should have been good for us. You know, ooo-ooo-aah-aaa, thump, thump, groan, oh-oh-aaaayyyh. Hilarious.

So, that is my success story. He got off. I did not. But never mind. We broke a barrier. he now wants to do it again. If we do, that will be the 5th time in 10 years, and 2nd time this year. What next? I really need to improve his technique. Please share your success stories - evidence. not suggestions. How have you restarted your love life? what approaches do you take? where do you look to for advice? how is it different? what do you compromise on? what do you take on as your part in the whole sorry business?

love to hear from you

18 yrs and hoping for 36
 

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Wow not many sucesses posted .

I think your doing everything great!

be patient, maybe after he has got his you could say holy cow it was so great seeing your passion but I need a little more stimulation and then start masterbating and ask if he could help you get there. if he balks say someting like if I can't ask my husband to rub me the way i like then who can I ask? or maybe you could introduce a toy.you could say that your sensitivity has changed and you need a little extra.


just a thought
 

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Tell him what you want. He can't read your mind - especially with how long your dry spell has lasted.

Make sure you and he are spending time together doing other stuff too!

My wife and I just came out of our drought 9 months ago and it lasted over 5 yrs. That part of the saga is now over and I swear it's better now than when we were dating or first married.

Just keep trying. It will be awkward at first but keep trying. But tell him how you want to be pleasured and ask how he wants it too. There is a lot more than just the intercourse part.

Good luck and God Bless!
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Discussion Starter #4
thanks powerbane. I need to hear it can end and it can get better. You both hit the nail on the head - it sure is awkward after so long not doing it. Not sure how we got into that fix - maybe we are both too nice, waiting for the other. it is going to be hard to talk about what is pleasurable - but it does seem like that is the only way forward. taking the angle that things are different now might help. thanks - yeah, and I hope there are few success stories, chillymorn! made me nervous when no one replied.
 

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This is probably not a reply from the area that you were hoping, but many middle aged guys who have been out of the action for a while are simply not physically or emotionally charged for it.

Remember that success builds from success. Maybe the first area is where he can work to build up a big dose of testosterone. Get active. Build the large muscle groups. With feeling better about himself, he'll naturally turn the attention to you.

About ten years ago, I ripped my collar bone from its attachment to my shoulder doing military presses. The doctor banned me from working out until the surgery and healing were over (about three months). I felt terrible. From there, I quit everything, incuding stationary bike and treadmill.

I took the testosterone building approach and then approached my love life like a twenty year old. The confidence felt like it literally oozed from the pores. Now, that brief time is a very scary, dark period.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I think you are right, Halien. I hadn't thought of it quite that way. I kind of don't get that, but if you say so. Sounds like things get rusty! We have never talked about it but I would imagine he masturbates - wouldn't that be enough? What do you mean emotionally not up for it? Sigh. this is one of the myths of sex I think - that men are always ready anytime. Maybe this is partly why I am so stumped by the lack of sex life. If I give the signals and nothing happens then why? that's not the way the script is supposed to go - or at least not ALL the time.

I started buying a men's mag a few months ago - it has great ab work outs. I've been leaving them around the house and pointing out all the great low-cal recipes. course I don't mind all the cheesy pictures either (and it makes him a bit jealous which is funny) - but two weeks ago he was inspired to go back to the gym, which he always used to love doing. Makes me happy...:)

On third thought, maybe I am rusty too. Maybe that's why, when he makes a pass at me and I feel like the timing is just so awful its because he's out of practice and so am I. It's just too startling. Holly hello. It's like being virgins again.
 

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I think changing anything in marriage, especially sex takes a heroic effort on the part of both people. Its very hard when the motivational timing is off between partners, there is past and current hurt, and stubbornness.

also, get a reusable(really hundreds or thousands of times) lelo vibrating c*ck ring (BO and TOR) (they are <40$ online). Even when timing is awkward and we are rusty its a lot easier for my W to get into it and finish. Also, the vibration is distracting, so he can last longer if thats an issue. Its really probably the best $40 we've ever spent. Usually after a dry spell, I'm too quick and excited and its hard for her to get into it.

You mentioned technique, and I wanted to send you this. Its a little not safe for work, but a cartoon. Anyways, for him to please you if he is on top, a motion more like that (along with a vibrating ring) is usually the key.
Why Woman on Top Can be More Orgasmic for Her

Looking internally and changing yourself is one of the hardest things a person can do. Having the energy to push a LTR out of a rut that you both have dug takes a brand new mindset.

Best of luck and cheers for taking the effort to fix something like this.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
You people are so sweet here. there are all these really specific questions on the blog like 'do you swallow' etc. You folks are just telling me to take it easy - acknowledging people do get stuck.

so, we had another date - and I kept in mind the idea of him taking some emotional time. the date did not go so well - ended up getting filled with work needs and an adult child had a crisis and needed some help... etc - the usual, in fact. but I talked a little about what it would take to have a life like we used to and really tried to listen instead of being frustrated or impatient.

what I took away is that work is really, really, exhausting right now. and he needs time - a holiday away, might really be necessary. we need to do some life balancing, but meanwhile, bills need to be paid, of course, so it is not an option to just walk away from this.

the toy - I'm not sure he would go for it, and I'm not sure that is the problem, but then I've never asked. From what you guys are suggesting, I'm thinking I need to learn a bit more about this. We are not totally out of touch, but maybe our habits of not talking about this make me unaware of some things that are going on.

it takes a lot of work to really think about how I might be stuck - how I might keep trying to bash the problem on the head with the same old frustrations. so everytime I say "not that" I instantly correct myself. yes that. look at it.

onwards!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
those anatomy cartoons are hilarious (and actually informative) - but sadly, we have not got that far in a long time. thanks though...

on 2nd thought - following my line just posted of everytime I think `not that" I make myself think again - okay, so why don't we get that far? we have a routine. act 1, act 2, act 3 etc. act 1, a bit of kissing - getting into bed or a place to make out. act 2, getting undressed, act 3, etc. we never make it as far as a 2nd position and for some reason, me on top is a 2nd position. In fact, since I like doing oral, we sometimes never get beyond his pleasure - he is very apologetic, but he just gets tired and sleepy. (keeping in mind that we have had sex 3 times in two years so this is a bit thin on opportunity to try variations). Boy this sounds boring as hell. how would you married guys feel if your wife suddenly skipped all the foreplay and just went for the main dish, her first? I'm guessing that is not going to work...

and really, I do not think the problem is that he is not attracted to me. he is very loving, all the time.

and I'm feeling a bit weird about talking about myself so much!
 

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Discussion Starter #10
one more post and then I will be quiet - the link, Anx, to the woman on top position has another set of articles that were very useful - the one about nudity really hits the mark. If I am nude, he hits on me - but at the most awkward times. so I stay clothed. I feel really self conscious because I can't "just be nude" without it being a sexual moment. So, I keep my clothes on, and dash from the bathroom or get dressed when I know he is busy. hmmm. and, the bedroom is also really, really cold for me, so I wear flannel to bed. He flings all the blankets off. hmm. maybe this gives me some practical ideas...
 

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Sex in marriage is very complicated. It touches on how connect we are, how we feel about ourselves and the relationship, our habits, our needs, stress, kids, love, control, guilt, hurt, ego, self esteem, shyness, etc.

Any of those issues can and do get in the way.

It really sounds like if you get naked (or nearly) and get it started, it might work.

If you can, get your husband to talk. Just listen without doing anything more than affirming what he says for as long as he will talk. Don't argue or even suggest he is wrong or another way to think about it. Just listen.

and I'm feeling a bit weird about talking about myself so much!
How well do you guys communicate?

Boy this sounds boring as hell. how would you married guys feel if your wife suddenly skipped all the foreplay and just went for the main dish, her first?
Sex is different for guys. I would be fine with that, but its an issue if I finish and can't finish my wife.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
this is a very small little set of posts, but it has already got me thinking a lot. I am really, really impressed (in awe) with how much some guys here have done for their wives, and for their marriages. It has made me think about what I take for granted, and what I resent, and whether that is a good thing or not. It's not that I don't have reason to be frustrated - its just that maybe he does too, although maybe for different reasons. your comments have also made me curious about what I thought I knew about sex and guys - even my husband. I think you get to a certain point and you feel (or I feel) like we have done it all before - its not that its not nice, I just don't expect surprises. And so maybe he feels like he needs to perform and has sort of not been saying things... I'm not sure.

Two weeks ago I would have said we did communicate well - except about actual sex, but now I am not so sure. You are right, Anx - the further I go into this, the more sex seems to be connected to every bone in the relationship. I knew that before, but I haven't really thought about it with fresh ears for a long time. Listening to him the other night was just a tiny step - and I am going to do some more listening. I think I need to. And by listening, I mean being prepared to have it change my life.

I am also going to try a couple things re intimacy - one being to be a bit more naked (phew, that sounds weird to me, but I am going to just see what happens) and I am also going to not turn him down if he decides to make a pass at me at a really awkward moment. It might not work long term, but it might be that he is feeling a bit more rejected, and I am too. we can work on timing later. The physical stuff I am not sure about - I think I need to find a way to explore whether he feels like his body has changed in some ways that make things different (I don't mean the obvious). My body has changed - maybe he doesn't know really how or what that means to me.

thank you, thank you, thank you for the words.
 

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If you are religiously inclined, I highly suggest reading sacred marriage. Its been a fresh view on my own marriage and struggles.

I really do applaud you for working on this. Its not easy getting unstuck from something you've been in for years. Its not easy to objectively look at issues.

You could always do a few MC session if that interests you, but you guys might figure this all out on your own.

Best of luck
 

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also, get a reusable(really hundreds or thousands of times) lelo vibrating c*ck ring (BO and TOR) (they are <40$ online). Even when timing is awkward and we are rusty its a lot easier for my W to get into it and finish. Also, the vibration is distracting, so he can last longer if thats an issue. Its really probably the best $40 we've ever spent. Usually after a dry spell, I'm too quick and excited and its hard for her to get into it.

I can never tell from the pictures of these things...Is this one of the ones that fits around just the penis, or does it try to fit around the penis, and testicles at the same time?
 

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Jade,


Sometimes it comes down to planned spontaneity. If you have the plan ... Adjust that thermostat up a couple degrees so you can be comfortable above the sheets without having to don the flannel fortress an hour/half-hour before you think you might get there.

How does your husband respond to you if you simply approach him on the couch, run your fingers through his hair, and say "I would like for you to hold me now?" or the even better (sometimes) "I would really like some time to hold you." Sometimes its small steps to get people there, and that is all it is, but it can go places too. Sometimes the issue is simply getting people in the right state of mind, or unexpressed/unmet needs for affection. I can only speak for myself here, but when this need for myself wasn't met for a long period of time, I felt truly disinclined to want to have sex, because I knew it wouldn't help, and I would feel even worse afterward. Eventually that got to the point where after several attempts to resolve it, I actually felt like leaving, and was prepared to leave. The lack of affection, plus still having the other demands made me feel truly unloved, and rejected daily. It felt that hopeless. It took both of us changing a lot of habits to get this to be happy again.

All of this is interconnected, from timing, appreciation, desire, priming the pump (everything from physical foreplay to emotional foreplay), expectations, dealing with bad experiences, stress...etc It sounds like you both have some truly bitter things in the past, and maybe some stinging resents that are causing avoidance behavior ... I've had, and been guilty of a dose of this myself. These problems weren't there earlier because we were both making an effort to do the things that did fill both of our wells, even if it wasn't conscious. Over time bad habits crept in, and so did resents. Let that go long enough, and those feelings can get really ugly.

The good thing about habits is they can be changed in a relatively short time with effort, but its a mutual thing. You can change some things purely on your own, but the biggest thing I've experienced that helps is a mutual change to talk about what you each need here, and in the other areas of your life together, and ask for it. Emotional & physical intimacy are about as connected as you can get in my experience. For me I wasn't meeting her need for emotional intimacy, and she wasn't meeting mine for affection. She still wanted sex every day, because her drive is that high, but she started to feel like I was closed to her, and she made less effort during, and I wasn't enjoying it because of it. I almost felt like a breathing machine for my penis at times. Eventually I started to withdrawal from that, and that just made it worse. Until we both made a choice to really be honest with each other at that level about everything, nothing was going to resolve in the sex area.

I have a bit of the opposite problem at the moment, but some of the same issues ... The largest being one of timing. She is at that point of drive where she wants sex all of the time. If my well for attention is full, I don't mind this as an emotional matter anymore, and may be a bit of unintended consequences for initiating 30 days in a row of sex, which matched her drive nicely, but didn't match my own completely. It was an interesting experience, but its had a few unintended consequences, and its caused some new insights into problems form that side of it.

Its a real effort sometimes to arrange a schedule to do it. ha The going to bed, and expecting this to work out, and be fun when either is dead tired thing doesn't work. Not if you want good sex. The lights need to be dimmed sooner, and a plan enacted to drift off to the bedroom sooner. What worked for us was ...as soon as we get the kids in bed, to drift off to take a shower or bath together, have sex, and then we have a couple hours at night to use for our own devices while the kids are asleep (for me studying, for her catching up on "her time"). Sometimes we even end up going back to bed again, and having sex again. Its not 7 days a week as she would like, but we found a compromise that as long as we make an effort to do it earlier, one of us vocalizes it pretty darn directly, and she takes some time to tend to the attention well for me, and I make the effort to tend to the intimacy well for her -- it seems to work.

We haven't had a month like December that was pure agony for both of us since. I'm hopeful this will be a lasting change both emotionally, and sexually.

I have some non-PG suggestions tooi, but the core is somewhere else...
 

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@ anooniemouse,

good to hear the 30 day thing went well. I'm still hoping to get to that one of these days.

It can fit around both, but I haven't really tried. I think It would be pretty snugIts comfortable just around the penis.
 

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Four years ago or so we went from having a great sex life to my W slowly losing her desire for me as I lost my edge, became passive, stopped lifting and became skinny - she hates skinny. So we dropped down to maintenance sex - once every 5 days. That was the least I would tolerate, and required her to make an effort as she had no desire. It was a painful compromise for both of us. Actually her lack of desire was far more painful than the actual frequency.

After more than a year of that, I rediscovered my edge cranked up the weight lifting and her desire returned.


I have a dry marriage and I see there are lots of others on these blogs who suffer the same. I don't want to leave my wonderful partner, but I really cannot live another 20 years without a love life. So I need tips - more than ideas, though. I would like people to post success stories here. Give me hope. Give me evidence. Talk about results and how they really happen. Talk about misteps, goals, and accomplishments.

So here is my story, to get us started. I've been married 18 years. The first 5 were fantastic on the intimacy scene. then a series of stressful things happened - a very bad job for me, a promotion for my husband that made his job very busy, a death, a fight with my mother-in-law that caused a bad riff between us. it is not surprising that a bit of distance developed, but then we really never recovered. (my mother and law and I did recover after about 3 yrs - it is all okay now)

Fast forward, 10 years after all that happened. How did we get here? I think he has become convinced that it is my fault - but mostly I find that his timing stinks. I find he never has time. So, (1) I decided I can't take this lack of love life. (2) I have read every blog I can find (we tried counselling and it failed miserably. Neither he nor the counsellor wanted to talk about sex and he thought the whole thing was a huge waste of time). (3) I have been talking it up like fury. "Remember when..." "I sure do miss...." etc. It took quite a while for this to make an impression - I think he was quite skeptical that I was serious.

okay, so that prepared us. Now is just the shaky step to actual action. bodies are not what they used to be, so I bought some lube. (Boy was that embarassing, but actually, they were really, really nice at the sex store). I insisted on meeting him on a business trip (good to be away). Unfortunately he insisted on going out for dinner, even though I had said quite a number of times that I thought it would be good to order dinner in - treat ourselves (wink, wink, nudge-nudge). When we got to the room, finally, at 8:30, he wanted to read the paper. Okay. whatever (really, some people are so dense!). Finally I presented the lube, which surprised him quite a bit! And we sort of went at it. It was awful. Ironically, a couple in the next door room had a very successful romp just at the moment things should have been good for us. You know, ooo-ooo-aah-aaa, thump, thump, groan, oh-oh-aaaayyyh. Hilarious.

So, that is my success story. He got off. I did not. But never mind. We broke a barrier. he now wants to do it again. If we do, that will be the 5th time in 10 years, and 2nd time this year. What next? I really need to improve his technique. Please share your success stories - evidence. not suggestions. How have you restarted your love life? what approaches do you take? where do you look to for advice? how is it different? what do you compromise on? what do you take on as your part in the whole sorry business?

love to hear from you

18 yrs and hoping for 36
 

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Jadegreen,

Your honesty about this process of reengaging each other, emotionally and sexually shows your true desire for intimacy with your husband. From what I have read from your posts, I know that you have been making these changes and pursuing each suggestion with openness. Do not give up!

Outside of having sex together, try to convince him that you need to find something to do together. Get the doing something together part of your relationship working well for you.

Tips: Build him up. Promotion at work doesn't always mean that it is fulfilling and not a real drag. If you can build up his ego, he may just want to initiate the foreplay and sex. When my wife talks me up and lets me talk about my boring business to her it really turns things around for me.

I have a success story for you.
All in the same year, I have lost my job and struggled to start my own business. The stresses of both have made my libido slow down in my marriage.

After getting chewed out by my business mentor, an expert in my business field, I felt so small and hopeless that I fumbled my whole way through our intimacy that night. Because, I approached sex with her like a robot, mechanical all the way, I succeeding in turning my wife completely off from wanting to go any further with me. I had to explain to her that I just could not have sex with her because I felt so sorry for myself and I was just trying my hardest to fulfill her needs.

All it took was her saying, "I believe in you", "You are a great provider", and "I respect you". That was all it took. We had the 4th of July fireworks under the sheets. Her encouragement brings out the thing she desires most from me, assertive love attention as described in my article: Intimate Marriage.

Seriously, the business I am starting has taken me to the brink of depression. 7 months starting it out and trying to get it off the ground without a penny to show for it yet. It has made me lose my desire to get in shape and sometimes it has made me not want intimacy with my wife, because I felt worthless, a failure. My wife's encouragement turns it all around. I write more about the effect in my article: How to Save a Marriage

Since it has been a long time since you have been sexually active, and in your posts you honestly state that you are feeling inadequacies, I assume your husband might feel the same inadequacies. Start to tell your husband the things that he can do to you to get you going. My wife and I have been sexually strong for the seven years of our marriage, but I still need her to coach me on what to do sometimes. I just run with it. I will not turn down her sexual direction.

Coach him quietly at first. Use your hand to direct him on what he should do, each step of the way until a rhythm gets going. If it works you may be able to whisper to him what you want. (my wife wants to add:) Try the same thing for him. Ask him how he is doing and what he is wanting and fantasizing about, and get excited about fulfilling that for him. He will all that much more connected to you knowing that you care about his needs. We all just want to love and be loved.

I hope the best for you and your husband.
 

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Jadegreen,

In your initial post you mentioned a dinner date and having sex with your husband, but not having the Big O. In that Story you mentioned the couple in the next room getting it on and how that uhm, caught you and your husbands attention.

Do you have any younger friends that are not going through a dry patch, sexually?

Sure, I know this idea comes from a movie, but, perhaps it may help. Did you ever see "Don Juan Demarco" with Marlon Brando, Johnny Depp and Faye Dunaway? Silly movie but it had some interesting sexual wisdom to impart. I still to this day think that picking a feature on my wife's body like her fingers (as in the scene in the movie) and paying attention to it as I would pay attention to a more erotic part of her body is BRILLIANT and great foreplay.

Anyways, my main point is the romance tales from Don Juan incite Marlon Brando's character to spice up his sexual relationship with his wife, played by Fay Dunaway.

Do you have any lovey dovey friends or family that could inspire the sex in your relationship?

Just a suggestion. This post offers a fictional sex success story, but one with a moral.

My wife and I hope the best for you and your marriage.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I've been feeling a bit discouraged so have not posted, and want to catch up here. Your replies are SO great. You really have answered honestly, and it makes me feel not alone. It has also made me think quite a bit (2nd post, below)

I need to go back to the "sex was awful" comment. I like your suggestion, rough patch about using a scene or something to set up a conversation or try something, without it being porn, which would not work at all. I am going to look up these movies, or some others. I need to find a way to open the door of his prudishness. he is really very conservative.Somehow, in whatever, way, we have to find a way to talk about these things.

A long time ago, we did get to a place where what he was doing wasn't working and he just told me to tell him. I did for a while, but it got so mechanical I eventually withdrew. I can see now that it was not a good thing to do. I just did not know what else to do at that time.

The trouble is that he is not a sensitive toucher. As an example, he doesn't "get" shoulder massages. If I ask for a massage, he willingly gives me some pretty hard pinches on the shoulder for about 5 minutes. I try not to say it is hurting, and I try to give him instructions (a little more here, a little lighter) but eventually I just have to say "that's enough". I try to do that graciously, but I would have to say he is almost the worst shoulder massager I have ever encountered. However, he loses all interest in about 5 minutes so it is not a disaster, and I do get massages elsewhere (I love massages). I have tried lots and lots of approaches to getting better massages, like by giving him long ones, even by buying him a massage so he could see how a professional does it, as well as lots of descriptions, talking to him while he is doing it, etc.

Sex is the same. He is just the type of person who is not able to translate what something feels like to someone else. When we were first dating this was not a problem as basically any contact was fantastic. As time wears on though, that is not enough. But when I said that the sex was awful, it actually hurt. First we had intercourse, and then he was giving me oral. I lost my desire in the moment in trying to avoid being hurt. I did not tell him that because I did not want to be discouraging. He knew it was not the best for me and he was a bit disappointed.

There was a time, many years ago, when we were being pretty open about sex and he got to the point of just saying "tell me what to do". I found, though, that I was writing a recipe book. "now touch here, now touch there, now this, now that" We did that for a while, but eventually I lost interest as he never was able to move on from the instruction part. That was about the time our love life died. Part of the magic of it, for me, is the chemistry of doing it with someone else.

However, I take the point Anx was making in suggesting the c'ring. I don’t know if the ring itself would help because I suspect it would be really hard to get him to consider it. I will try, though, at some opportune moment, but I don’t want him to get the message that he is inadequate, because he is not. The important part about Anx's suggestion for me is about me taking charge of my own pleasure, and I have been thinking about this a lot. It is not that my husband is against me having pleasure - he would love to think he is giving that pleasure to me. The technique is just not there, and I am guilty of not telling him what is wrong because I want to protect his ego and because I don’t want to scare him away from the little sex we do have. Complicating things is that he has a very traditional idea about what is okay and what is immoral, so the range of options for solutions is a bit limited. I would be fine, for example, with helping myself while he watched or petted me or kissed me, but he thinks this is pretty weird and kinky. He doesn't even like to use the "m" word. I asked him once if he masturbated and he was pretty horrified. I’m not sure if he was horrified that I raised the topic or whether I was suggesting he masturbated, or whether I breached some rule about privacy or rules about what women talk about. I was prepared to talk to him about my needs and my actions, but that kind of killed the conversation. Sigh.
 
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