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Yea, I prefer counselors who have a moral compass. The ones who make every last detail 50/50 are highly ineffective.
Co-pay collectors.

Counselors are reluctant to diagnose someone with a cluster B disorder, because they are behavioral disorders and insurance won't cover it. Additionally, labeling a client in such a way usually results in losing that client, and their $. Because nearly all cluster B's insist there is nothing wrong with them. They blame others for their problems (victim mentality).
 

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Co-pay collectors.

Counselors are reluctant to diagnose someone with a cluster B disorder, because they are behavioral disorders and insurance won't cover it. Additionally, labeling a client in such a way usually results in losing that client, and their $. Because nearly all cluster B's insist there is nothing wrong with them. They blame others for their problems (victim mentality).
Well, there ya have it.
 

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youre probably right. Im just in denial about it. Tonight I needed a break from all the bossiness and went out with a fried to watch the game, and I came home to a house trashed. I mean trashed. And of course she isnnt going to clean it up, its on me because she could live in a pig stye and be fine. I dont believe in raising my baby in an unhealthy and dirty environment. And my parents and there as well and I said to them "OMG this place is a mess". My wife overhears and suddenly starts acting super awkward and talks rude to me and I say "why are you talking like that?" she says "you just criticized the home, like it's my fault." And talks rude and sort of snaps at me and then ignores me.

I said "I was just talking about the state of the home, I have no idea who did what here."

She was rude again and I walked out. Honestly I'm so sick of her issues. I dont see how I put up with this for so long or how anyone would ever put up with her behavior, unless all they cared about was money, because they would have plenty of THAT. I guess there are a lot of people out there who care a lot about money but Im not one of them. So tired of all this.
You're wife doesn't like girly men. You lost your marriage when you lost your ba lls . She treats you like sh it because that's what her partner trained her to do to underlings.

Have you ever told her to go fu ck herself?
 

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I guess I'm once again thinking back to @EI and @B1 ...
Hi cinnabomb

For your consideration. Reading bfree’s recent comment concerning EI, led me to the following.

EI strikes me as woman with an enormous capacity to love. When EI and B1 started posting about the very serious crisis in which their marriage found itself in, she was, as the WS, an angry and defiant woman. However, what struck me was that she is a woman with a big heart. Notwithstanding EI’s responsibility for her affair, it quickly seemed to me that if B1 started dealing positively with his pre-affair issues that the odds were very high that EI would eventually fall ‘in love’ with him again in part due to her considerable capacity to love.

In regards to your wife, is it possible that the underlining fundamental issue in your marriage is that she has only so much of love to give. When it was the just the two of you, you were the main recipient. However, with the arrival of the baby, gradually this little person became the main beneficiary. Also, noting her feelings for her work - not so much love left for you. I have known women who had “only so much of love to give “. Not so bad, if it encompasses the entire immediate family. Not so good, if only certain family member/members is/are the recipient(s).

Cinnabomb, it is challenging enough trying to resolve serious marriage issues when spouses are in love with each other. If the above rings true, then you may have a nearly impassable road for your marriage to travel down.

Respectively

Joe75
 

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Hi cinnabomb

For your consideration. Reading bfree’s recent comment concerning EI, led me to the following.

EI strikes me as woman with an enormous capacity to love. When EI and B1 started posting about the very serious crisis in which their marriage found itself in, she was, as the WS, an angry and defiant woman. However, what struck me was that she is a woman with a big heart. Notwithstanding EI’s responsibility for her affair, it quickly seemed to me that if B1 started dealing positively with his pre-affair issues that the odds were very high that EI would eventually fall ‘in love’ with him again in part due to her considerable capacity to love.

In regards to your wife, is it possible that the underlining fundamental issue in your marriage is that she has only so much of love to give. When it was the just the two of you, you were the main recipient. However, with the arrival of the baby, gradually this little person became the main beneficiary. Also, noting her feelings for her work - not so much love left for you. I have known women who had “only so much of love to give “. Not so bad, if it encompasses the entire immediate family. Not so good, if only certain family member/members is/are the recipient(s).

Cinnabomb, it is challenging enough trying to resolve serious marriage issues when spouses are in love with each other. If the above rings true, then you may have a nearly impassable road for your marriage to travel down.

Respectively

Joe75
regarding copay, we dont use insurance we pay cash. Joe, to answer your question, yes I think there is truth to this. She gives a TON of love to baby, and I am invisible. However, the love was sparse for 7 years now. She slowly and methodically removed me from the equation and fell in "love" with herself and her career and job, status, pseudo-fame, etc. Literally every minute she is home from 5 or 6pm until bed, she is on her laptop or the phone. I'm not exaggerating. I have tried to engage with ehr for years, saying lets watch a show together, etc, and she will sit next to me on the couch, but with her laptop, and it isn't really like we are engaging or doing something together at all because she isnt watching the show, so we arent experiencing anything together. If I complain, she gets furious. Now I dont even try anymore.

It's weird to me this concept....Why wouldnt you give love to everyone you love??? I guess maybe thats the answer. I dont think she truly loves me anymore. She says the words, but nothing in her actions says love. Anyways, that isnt the FUNDAMENTAL issue. I believe (and have said so from the beginning to our therapists), that the fundamental issue is this narcissistic personality disorder that came about with this new job and sociopath partner 7-8 years ago. she literally did a 180 in personality. It was terrifying beyond belief. I SO regret not taking audio ad video of her during these years. I actually DID take audio a few times and during a positive period, feeling guilty I deleted them. I'm a fking putz, I know. I just didnt want to believe that it was true.

Now, her blowups arent as bad because she knows we are seeing MC and so she stays within SOME control, because she doesnt want me to bring it up and then she gets "scolded". But they are still typical to what I posted here the other day, except she now defaults to 'I wont talk without MC" within 5 seconds.
 

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regarding copay, we dont use insurance we pay cash. Joe, to answer your question, yes I think there is truth to this. She gives a TON of love to baby, and I am invisible. However, the love was sparse for 7 years now. She slowly and methodically removed me from the equation and fell in "love" with herself and her career and job, status, pseudo-fame, etc. Literally every minute she is home from 5 or 6pm until bed, she is on her laptop or the phone. I'm not exaggerating. I have tried to engage with ehr for years, saying lets watch a show together, etc, and she will sit next to me on the couch, but with her laptop, and it isn't really like we are engaging or doing something together at all because she isnt watching the show, so we arent experiencing anything together. If I complain, she gets furious. Now I dont even try anymore.

It's weird to me this concept....Why wouldnt you give love to everyone you love??? I guess maybe thats the answer. I dont think she truly loves me anymore. She says the words, but nothing in her actions says love. Anyways, that isnt the FUNDAMENTAL issue. I believe (and have said so from the beginning to our therapists), that the fundamental issue is this narcissistic personality disorder that came about with this new job and sociopath partner 7-8 years ago. she literally did a 180 in personality. It was terrifying beyond belief. I SO regret not taking audio ad video of her during these years. I actually DID take audio a few times and during a positive period, feeling guilty I deleted them. I'm a fking putz, I know. I just didnt want to believe that it was true.

Now, her blowups arent as bad because she knows we are seeing MC and so she stays within SOME control, because she doesnt want me to bring it up and then she gets "scolded". But they are still typical to what I posted here the other day, except she now defaults to 'I wont talk without MC" within 5 seconds.

Cinnabomb:

If this is you feel and how you think she is acting, why do you need a recording?

Do you think her hearing it will make her want to change? I think if she found out you recorded her to play it for a MC or anyone she'd flip.

I also think that it might actually backfire with the MC. I'm not sure a MC would listen to a secret recording. That is just my opinion I'm not sure what yours would decided if presented with a recording.
 

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I truly believe her addiction to this job is consuming all of her energy, love and fueling her outburst, just like someone who reacts when you try to take the drug out of their hand. That's what caused the shift... Now could she learn to balance it like bfree suggests... maybe, but not in her current state of mind.
 

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I truly believe her addiction to this job is consuming all of her energy, love and fueling her outburst, just like someone who reacts when you try to take the drug out of their hand. That's what caused the shift... Now could she learn to balance it like bfree suggests... maybe, but not in her current state of mind.
Been out of touch for a bit, friend visiting from out of town. Things have been ok at home overall, but not spending much time together, since we had family in town last week and my friend this week. I think you are right BL. This is what it is. It is clearly some narcissism and other things....but how can it change? She doesnt want it to. She isnt even aware of the term "narcissistic personality disorder". That was my hope with the recording to show MC this and hope she can influence my wife in some way. I doubt its realistic.

It was my hope though. That she might listen to someone like an MC that she respects, saying "you are showing some traits of narcissism, but there is hope with training and learning about it...."

What do you think?
 

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Been out of touch for a bit, friend visiting from out of town. Things have been ok at home overall, but not spending much time together, since we had family in town last week and my friend this week. I think you are right BL. This is what it is. It is clearly some narcissism and other things....but how can it change? She doesnt want it to. She isnt even aware of the term "narcissistic personality disorder". That was my hope with the recording to show MC this and hope she can influence my wife in some way. I doubt its realistic.

It was my hope though. That she might listen to someone like an MC that she respects, saying "you are showing some traits of narcissism, but there is hope with training and learning about it...."

What do you think?
I don't think she I pathological which would mean she doesn't have the capacity, but her unwillingness has you dead in the water until she becomes willing. What does your IC say?
 

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I think she will never change or question her actions until YOU MOVE OUT and she loses her butler.
Oh no!
Rule #1: Do not move out. That can create all sorts of trouble in a divorce.
 

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In this case, I recommend it. This is no different from a woman relying on the man's income - the courts will require the care provider to remain the care provider, at the expense of the money earner.
 

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well I'm just sort of checking in, though nothing much new to report. I've been focused on my work and things I want to do, liek spending time with friends, baby, watching sports, etc, without being all dependent on wife and needy or clingy. I have not initiated a date with her in months and she has not either. It seems she prefers this totally seperated marriage. Maybe she doesn't but she seems content enough. It hurts.

Some days are fine and I stay busy and it is what it is, and other days, like last night, I cried a bit (no she did not see), looking at old pics. She was really so sweet I just miss her. I know there is no going back. Maybe there is a middle ground. I dont know. Some days I think I can do it if I need to...seperate, and be ok. Other days I am like WTF am I thinking that would be a nightmare. I dont want to be single again, trying to awkwardly hit on girls at Target or whatever! But by far the biggest thing holding me back is my sweet little baby who I adore more every day. I literally cannot go a day without holding and smelling and snuggling and kissing that wonderful thing.

You get my point. Anyways, that's about it.....thinking a lot about it all.
 

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Then your only choice is to give up dreams of having a wife. Just be a roommate until your daughter turns 18.
Or maybe 16 when she's old enough to run away and "find love". If she's brought up in a family where mom and dad ignore each other and mom would rather be at work or on her computer, your daughter could very well run off with the first exploitative dirt bag who tells her what she wants to hear and shows her "love".

Man if I knew then what I know now, I could have been quite the player with those girls who lacked a loving home, but alas I was pretty "nice" back then.
 

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lol @Blossom Leigh

She is doing what works for her. The point is to stop falling into her traps and create a healthy environment, at least for yourself. She doesn't have to join you, but it sure would make things better for both of you. Keep working on healthy responses and see if she comes around over time. I also like @bfree comments about how she is probably filled with stress from work and comes home like a pressure cooker ready to explode. She needs to blow off steam somehow in a healthy manner. Do you know what works for her to do that or can you ask her what she does when she's stressed that helps her get it out and to feel better?
I'm trying, but still learning how and dont know everything. BTW this was just a typical "example" of an argument. I made up the part about the baby toys cleaning, usually, the argument is over much more hurtful stuff and there have been HUNDREDS of arguments like this. Repeatedly peeing on the floor and I keep stepping in it, showing up late to an important event where I needed her, repeated ignoring me, being on her phone the entire night on a date night, disrespecting me by name calling etc, yelling or being bossy, even tonight: My mother had made a big pot of food for us and left it on the stove.....I get home and shower and she gets home while I am in the shower, never says hello or asks if I ate, and ate the entire thing herself (and some to baby)! I said "you ate all of it? There was a lot in there and I wanted some." She was like "Oh there wasnt much, here do you want the last bite."

Im just like WTF, I ALWAYS make sure she gets fed and half of everything in the house. I dunno....hard to get used to selfish behavior. I guess we are just different. She takes care of herself and baby, with zero concern about me. she does selfish stuff like this everyday and doesnt even cross her mind that I'm a living human being in this house. This happens daily.

I've been doing some research on narcissistic personality disorder and I am convinced she has some of these traits. It's shocking actually, when I read down the list of "symptoms", probably 90% of them are her to a T. Its shocking. Both MC and IC also have repeatedly said how they can see how much changes I have made to try and make this work, but MC has not really said that to her. I mean....1 apology in 7+ years....that's barely progress and I'm still not sure it was sincere. I sent this sample argument to MC and she seemed a bit concerned about it, but then asked if wife would agree on the verbiage, and I said "highly doubtful." I have an excellent memory and wife has an admittedly poor one, and when she is raging she can literally forget and deny something she said 5 seconds ago. So without proof, I guess its my word vs hers all over again.

Going to get a VAR and see if I can get some proof. But its like....what's the point? To try and prove to the MC the truth about what is going on? And then what??? Our MC is not the type who would ever say to her "honey I think you have some BPD and really need some therapy for it".
That's when you go to bedroom get dressed and go eat a T-bone at the local steak house or go to Red Lobster.

When my wife gets cross tone I tell her directly to "lower your tone", if she says " I don't have to" I say "Then this conversation is over" and walk away. If she says where are you going, I tell her When you can speak in a respectable manner we can continue with the conversation.
 

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I've said many times in here that I dont give a F about money. I'd rather be happy, in love, and loved.
Most if not all of us want that, too. The question becomes whether that's a reasonable expectation in your marriage. I'm thinking at this point that it's not.

At least not if you stay on your present course.
 

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Trying not to look at old pictures but everytime I drink I cant help it and then I feel awful looking at how sweet she was and then I cry. Im going through the motions, keeping busy, etc. But there's still a bit of denial in me....wanting her to be what she was. Or even something close. Overall the heat is way down at home, like she isnt snapping at me or has not in weeks, and the one time she did I got up and left like you gusy said and she apologized (which she never does). There were other times she was bossy or dissmissive and sometimes I didnt voice my opinion because it wasnt worth the conflict (wasnt something I cared enough about). Trying to choose battles here....

But you know the messed up part? In some ways, think we were better BEFORE MC therapy. Like, it wasnt so awkward all the time because we hadnt put everything all out there like we do in therapy. And now its like every single action is second guessed and we are both in this wierd heightened state of awareness of our actions and scared to just ****ing LIVE and LOVE or do whatever the **** we want, even if it means grabbing the other person and giving them a hug.

Dunno if that makes sense, but its like now, we dont interact barely at all. Its BEYOND awkward. I mean, she says goodbye in the morning with a little hug and then sometimes hello after work and then goodnight with a small cheek kiss, and we chat on instant message during the day, but when we are actually TOGETHER, like for the 4 hours a day after work, or all day on weekends, we dont talk, interact, touch, etc. I feel like we are so much in our own heads now that nothing is organic, normal, everything is questioned and we are reserved and holding back and its hurting us. I've been spending more and more time out of the house, even weekends, because I dont like that awkwardness, and I'd rather go work at a coffee shop, but it would be nice to not have that.

Any advice on getting this back on track?
 
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