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I hate to bother you, but can you highlight the placebos used in these studies and the amounts? Also the amounts for the hydroxychloroquine. You’re used to it and and can probably dig it up in a few seconds, I’d be here all day. 🤣
Don't even bother @Ikaika this is just the new drum for the right wing nutters to beat. See, every study done that isn't showing how awesome it is, was done wrong, or they used a placebo that is also a miracle cure, or is just as effective as HCQ. It is a never ending chase to find the goal post that doesn't exist.
 

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Don't even bother @Ikaika this is just the new drum for the right wing nutters to beat. See, every study done that isn't showing how awesome it is, was done wrong, or they used a placebo that is also a miracle cure, or is just as effective as HCQ. It is a never ending chase to find the goal post that doesn't exist.
One of the problems that I see in this dialogue, is that Ikaika has been institutionalized (oh geez, that sounds so bad lol) on a small island for most of his life and is genuinely trying to educate people on scientific protocol for research. The problem is, these people do not understand scientific protocol, couldn't care less about it and just want to shoot from the lip.
 

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One of the problems that I see in this dialogue, is that Ikaika has been institutionalized (oh geez, that sounds so bad lol) on a small island for most of his life and is genuinely trying to educate people on scientific protocol for research. The problem is, these people do not understand scientific protocol, couldn't care less about it and just want to shoot from the lip.
We all have our own opinions. Are you against eating healthy and supplementing with vitamins as a means of disease prevention? That’s the route I have chosen, not to follow the pharmaceutical industry or Gates for my health and well being. Nobody is talking about the thousands of deaths every year to modern medicine or the thousands of deaths from pharmaceuticals every year. As I mentioned before, there are natural cures, eating healthy and supplements are just the beginning. You do you and I will do me.
 

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We all have our own opinions. Are you against eating healthy and supplementing with vitamins as a means of disease prevention? That’s the route I have chosen, not to follow the pharmaceutical industry or Gates for my health and well being. Nobody is talking about the thousands of deaths every year to modern medicine or the thousands of deaths from pharmaceuticals every year. As I mentioned before, there are natural cures, eating healthy and supplements are just the beginning. You do you and I will do me.
Why do those concepts have to be diametrically opposed? Can you not eat well, supplement well, exercise regularly, AND use the tools that modern medicine has discovered? It is not a competition between two sides, it is about how to live the best, healthiest life. That includes things from both of these branches you have artificially divided.

I am pro-vaccine, I am pro-science, I am pro-supplement. I have spent my professional career working in drug manufacture and development as well as supplement manufacture and development. They are not enemies and following only one of them is the only wrong answer.
 

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One of the problems that I see in this dialogue, is that Ikaika has been institutionalized (oh geez, that sounds so bad lol) on a small island for most of his life and is genuinely trying to educate people on scientific protocol for research. The problem is, these people do not understand scientific protocol, couldn't care less about it and just want to shoot from the lip.
I find it remarkable the world Ikaika lives in, where nothing is real until a peer-reviewed published scientific paper says so, at which time it becomes gospel.

At this time in the Covid19 pandemic (is it still officially a pandemic?), we cannot expect authoritative final over-arching research to have been completed and verified with multiple follow-ups. But we do have a lot of anecdotal evidence of some things including HCQ. Docs report great results, and we do have before and after data to look at. Again, not final authoritative exhaustively examined research, but damned good evidence nonetheless.

I'll add in two things to that. First, HCQ has been viciously politicized from the moment Trump mentioned it, as has everything he has said or done regarding this virus. To ignore the political aspect is to ignore the largest factor in the present debates Covid policies and treatments. Secondly, in areas I am quite familiar with, I have seen more junk science studies than good solid studies by far. Publishing and peer review mean nothing. As a result I am very skeptical about every study on every side of an issue until I look at it critically myself, and I don't have the time nor inclination to do that with every topic.

And I guess a 3rd aside that the lab is not the real world, and there is great value in the experience of real world professionals. When docs discuss their professional experiences it does have weight. If a doc says they have treated scores of patients with a particular regimen with outstanding results, it bears legitimacy even though not proven yet by perfected scientific studies. A lab test does not port over to the real world in many cases. Mask use is one example, where the real world application by millions of people is a far cry from lab conditions, regarding both the materials and the protocols.
 

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We all have our own opinions. Are you against eating healthy and supplementing with vitamins as a means of disease prevention? That’s the route I have chosen, not to follow the pharmaceutical industry or Gates for my health and well being. Nobody is talking about the thousands of deaths every year to modern medicine or the thousands of deaths from pharmaceuticals every year. As I mentioned before, there are natural cures, eating healthy and supplements are just the beginning. You do you and I will do me.
I would say this a good route to take since we know the worst outcomes for this infection are folks with underlying conditions, first on that list is obesity. So, I would say please do eat healthy and exercise.
 

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A couple of comments on Thor's post:
I find it remarkable the world Ikaika lives in, where nothing is real until a peer-reviewed published scientific paper says so, at which time it becomes gospel.
That's not what he said. He said that observational studies do not prove causation and controlled studies are needed. Those studies have been done and none of them show that it works.

At this time in the Covid19 pandemic (is it still officially a pandemic?), we cannot expect authoritative final over-arching research to have been completed and verified with multiple follow-ups. But we do have a lot of anecdotal evidence of some things including HCQ. Docs report great results, and we do have before and after data to look at. Again, not final authoritative exhaustively examined research, but damned good evidence nonetheless.
Anecdotes. As the right so often points out, most people do not die from COVID. How do we know that any of those people would have died without HCQ? We don't, which is why you need controlled studies. Initially, the anecdotes were used to treat patients, they still died at the same rate. Studies show it does not work, so they stop.

I'll add in two things to that. First, HCQ has been viciously politicized from the moment Trump mentioned it, as has everything he has said or done regarding this virus. To ignore the political aspect is to ignore the largest factor in the present debates Covid policies and treatments.
Which is why he should not have mentioned it. If he hadn't, you would not be here talking about it. The unfortunate side affect of the politicization of this is that there are people who won't let it die.

And I guess a 3rd aside that the lab is not the real world
No one is talking about lab studies. These are studies done on real patients in real hospitals, with real disease. When they die, they are really dead.
 

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I'll add in two things to that. First, HCQ has been viciously politicized from the moment Trump mentioned it, as has everything he has said or done regarding this virus. To ignore the political aspect is to ignore the largest factor in the present debates Covid policies and treatments. Secondly, in areas I am quite familiar with, I have seen more junk science studies than good solid studies by far. Publishing and peer review mean nothing. As a result I am very skeptical about every study on every side of an issue until I look at it critically myself, and I don't have the time nor inclination to do that with every topic.
The only folks politicizing this drug are those who either want it to work or those absolutely opposed to it because it has been promoted by President Trump. I think I can speak for most scientist, neither of those are important to us. We know it works well for those with lupus and from the time of it’s promotion, many lupus patients are finding it hard to come by. At the same time there have been other pharmaceuticals that have shown more efficacy (and even with those there are limitations) against SARS-CoV-2. I don’t see why you or anyone else are so tied to wanting the use of this drug, when there are others that are shown to be more effective.

And I guess a 3rd aside that the lab is not the real world, and there is great value in the experience of real world professionals. When docs discuss their professional experiences it does have weight. If a doc says they have treated scores of patients with a particular regimen with outstanding results, it bears legitimacy even though not proven yet by perfected scientific studies. A lab test does not port over to the real world in many cases. Mask use is one example, where the real world application by millions of people is a far cry from lab conditions, regarding both the materials and the protocols.
These recent studies are done on real patients (double blind controls), not sure how that fits with this scenario.
 

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I wish there was a panacea (especially if it were a prophylactic) for this viral pandemic. My oldest son could get a job, my youngest son could get his sports scholarship and actually attend university. My own job would not be modified to the nth degree. I could workout at the gym without having to wear a mask, etc... I could on and on.
 

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I wish there was a panacea (especially if it were a prophylactic) for this viral pandemic. My oldest son could get a job, my youngest son could get his sports scholarship and actually attend university. My own job would not be modified to the nth degree. I could workout at the gym without having to wear a mask, etc... I could on and on.
Logical fallacies, this has nothing to do with the virus and everything to do with the politics involved. The virus is virtually invisible without the political nonsense, everything you stated could happen are being stopped by politics.
 

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Logical fallacies, this has nothing to do with the virus and everything to do with the politics involved. The virus is virtually invisible without the political nonsense, everything you stated could happen are being stopped by politics.
?
 

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It's because every year people die by the hundred thousand from a random new disease. There is nothing to see here but political posturing to take down Trump, because he is so awesome that the deep state is scared of him and they are going to kill a million people world wide to take him down. It is pretty obvious when you see it. I mean, Gates, Soros, Clinton, Obama, China, they are all working together because Trump is gonna drain that swamp!
 

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The only folks politicizing this drug are those who either want it to work or those absolutely opposed to it because it has been promoted by President Trump.
Which is the entire Democratic party and almost the entire mainstream media. That's why the politicians are making the policies they are, including in some places banning the use of HCQ for treating Covid. There are very many in positions of power who are enforcing this political agenda by trying to professionally destroy anyone who comes out in support of HCQ, and those professionals are saying essentially exactly what you are, that HCQ is effective in a narrow set of circumstances. But even that truth is not acceptable in the wider world because it challenges the narrative that Trump is evil and/or he is a moron, and the belief is that anything an evil moron says is by definition false. If this one thing is true, it harms the progressive political agenda.

I think I can speak for most scientist, neither of those are important to us. We know it works well for those with lupus and from the time of it’s promotion, many lupus patients are finding it hard to come by. At the same time there have been other pharmaceuticals that have shown more efficacy (and even with those there are limitations) against SARS-CoV-2. I don’t see why you or anyone else are so tied to wanting the use of this drug, when there are others that are shown to be more effective.
It is more the reverse, where I don't want this drug removed from being freely chosen by doctors and patients. In some cases this will be the very best option, while in others not. It isn't that I want everybody to use it, I oppose those who want to remove the choice. They are doing that out of politics and are ignoring the very real science and very real clinical experience.

If my doc thought this was the best treatment, I would choose it.
 

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Jim Jordan is a joke, so is Tucker Carlson. Fauci doesn't comment on something that is matter of constitutional law, therefore he is a fraud......if he had said something he would get blasted for speaking out on things he is not an expert on.
 

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Again, the only people politicizing this are those that refuse to believe all of the data that shows it did not help. We have not a single trial where it helped, zero, not 1. All we have are observational anecdotes where it could have helped, but there is no establishment of causation.
 

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Also, you want real world data on stuff, there were 2000% more prescriptions filled in March for Hydroxychloroquine compared to last year in the US. Yet, COVID still rose and people still died at the same rate.
 

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I find it remarkable the world Ikaika lives in, where nothing is real until a peer-reviewed published scientific paper says so, at which time it becomes gospel.
Can't speak for @Ikaika , but the world I live in says reality is something we try to discover. Anecdotal evidence is a first step, followed by trials of progressing rigor. It is always fair to point to a flaw in a trial and redo it, or try a slightly different therapy.
At this time in the Covid19 pandemic (is it still officially a pandemic?), we cannot expect authoritative final over-arching research to have been completed and verified with multiple follow-ups. But we do have a lot of anecdotal evidence of some things including HCQ. Docs report great results, and we do have before and after data to look at. Again, not final authoritative exhaustively examined research, but damned good evidence nonetheless.
A trial is simply a more careful method than examining anecdotes.
I'll add in two things to that. First, HCQ has been viciously politicized from the moment Trump mentioned it, as has everything he has said or done regarding this virus.
If you mean viciously politicized by Trump, I agree. Had Trump simply mentioned HCQ as a potential therapy before the trials, as he did remdesivir, that would be fine. But instead he had to go to his "gut" and predict it would work, which is kinda dumb but mostly harmless. Unfortunately he also started pressuring the bureaucracy to say he was right and approve its use.
And I guess a 3rd aside that the lab is not the real world, and there is great value in the experience of real world professionals. When docs discuss their professional experiences it does have weight. If a doc says they have treated scores of patients with a particular regimen with outstanding results, it bears legitimacy even though not proven yet by perfected scientific studies. A lab test does not port over to the real world in many cases.
Not sure what you mean by lab tests. Where possible drugs are evaluated in test tubes and/or animals and if promising, moved to human patients to minimize risk to human life. The HCQ trials were done in actual patients, so I don't know of any difference btw the "lab" and the clinic. There was a difference btw anecdotes and trials wrt evaluation.
 
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