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Discussion Starter #22
I’m guessing that Spiny’s reply was rhetorical.
Well, Spiny is a pedant (not that there's anything wrong with that). He'll take a point from a post that isn't the main thrust or even important and try to engage you in long back and forths to distract you/others from the important issue.

Your post is a perfect recent example, and there are numerous others.
 

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Discussion Starter #23

Is it any wonder how people would've reacted if Trump, even jokingly, suggested putting covid positive patients BACK into nursing homes? No, there is no wonder.

But, what we actually have is a Gov. (Cuomo and Murphy, to be exact) who actually made such an order. The order was obeyed and death toll in nursing homes exploded.

Anyone care to defend this order?
 

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The naïveté is strong.

If it's about science, why do the guidelines and pronouncements from the white coat dictocrats flipflop weekly?
Because science progresses over time and guidelines change accordingly?

What is it you're trying to say here? Is Covid fake? Are the (currently) 97000 dead Americans and 6300 dead Canadians really just paid actors hired by Bill Gates and hiding out with the fake dead from the WTC and the Sandy Hook kids? These Democrats must be pretty crafty to enlist countries all over the world that don't care remotely about the American two party system to back up their power grab. I'm sure all those "dead" people in Brazilian favelas are just CNN sycophants.

Or is it just possible...maybe...that this is real? Is it possible that things actually occur here on Planet Earth that aren't caused by political conspiracies?
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Because science progresses over time and guidelines change accordingly?

What is it you're trying to say here? Is Covid fake? Are the (currently) 97000 dead Americans and 6300 dead Canadians really just paid actors hired by Bill Gates and hiding out with the fake dead from the WTC and the Sandy Hook kids? These Democrats must be pretty crafty to enlist countries all over the world that don't care remotely about the American two party system to back up their power grab. I'm sure all those "dead" people in Brazilian favelas are just CNN sycophants.

Or is it just possible...maybe...that this is real? Is it possible that things actually occur here on Planet Earth that aren't caused by political conspiracies?
My comment was in direct response to someone who thinks Covid has no political angle. Your response should be directed to someone else, it is 100% irrelevant to what I said.
 

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I, personally, don't know anyone who had symptomatic covid. The case load in my county was low. But, I do know many, many people who were hurt financially by the forced unemployment.

I suspect my experience is probably the common one for most people.

Only the most ardent TDS sufferer will blame Trump for this. The American Federal Republic system makes the Governor the grand poobah of each state. In the Democrat run states (not all of them, of course) where the Gov. was illogical, draconian, and power-grabby (I'm looking at you, NY, NJ, Wis, Mich. Cali. etc) even to this late point of things winding down is telling.

Will the electorate wake up?

Hopefully, maybe slowly?

Katie Hills seat in Cali. went Republican. An omen of things to come?

(Disclaimer, before accusing me of being a Republican hack, I'd prefer every clear thinking American vote for the Constitution Party. Up in Canada, we don't have a real constitution, so that choice is null)
It doesn't matter whether you call yourself a Republican hack because your post repeats the very talking points that have been used to politicize the COVID pandemic by the now co-opted Republican party. Trump is exonerated. Nothing is his fault. It's all the fault of the states, particularly states run by Democrats. Economics is more important than health concerns. That's your post.

COVID 19 is political because it requires a response by the federal government to handle it. If the US government had initiated and carried out a coherent plan from the start a lot of the suffering and misery both healthwise and economically that has already occurred and will continue to occur could be avoided. No such plan ever was ever implemented. Your claim that it's the states who are responsible is just bullshit. The federal government is there to handle national emergencies. It has the resources far beyond any state, and it can coordinate things at a national level and in cooperation with other countries, where they need to be coordinated. States can't do that, but because they have received such confusing signals and insufficient aid from the federal government they are forced to go out on their own and do what they can.

So yeah, I hope the electorate wakes up.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Trump is exonerated. Nothing is his fault. It's all the fault of the states, particularly states run by Democrats.
Thank you, we see eye to eye on that.

Economics is more important than health concerns.
Yes. And you believe it too, hence the reason you don't live in a hole and eat grass.

Pesticides, pollution, food stored in plastic, pharmaceuticals in water, etc, etc, etc, etc.......all kill and harm exponentially more people than a nasty flu season.
 

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A look into the world of 'politicized medicine' in the age of COVID-19




Meantime, popular support in the media has built behind a new I.V. drug called remdesivir, administered as a fluid into the veins. It was developed to use against Ebola, but never approved for any use when other medicines proved to be more effective. A draft version of a study was accidentally published last month showing remdesivir did not help most coronavirus patients and caused such serious side effects, 18 test subjects were taken off the drug.

Still, Dr. Anthony Fauci of the White House coronavirus task force began promoting remdesivir as “quite important” after other data that proved no lifesaving benefits but indicated it helped coronavirus patients recover four days faster.

“The data shows that remdesivir has a clear cut significant positive effect in diminishing the time to recover,” said Dr. Fauci on April 29.

We set out to find the facts about the promise and harm of these potential coronavirus treatments, minus the spin.

Cardiologist Dr. William O’Neill is a medical director at the Henry Ford Health System in Detroit, Michigan where they’re studying both remdesivir and hydroxychloroquine.

“I've never seen science [so] politicized in 40 years of practice,” Dr. O’Neill told me.

“President Trump touted [hydroxychloroquine] early and so then the media set out to disprove and discredit it without any regard for science. I think those of us that are actually involved in the scientific endeavor feel that there is some value to it and it has to be tested.”

Dr. O’Neill says he’s prescribed hydroxychloroquine to help numerous coronavirus patients and saw improvement in all of them. He’s less impressed, so far, by remdesivir, calling the data on that drug (so far) “a big Ho Hum.”

The biggest promise of hydroxychloroquine, he says, could be as a medicine to prevent Covid-19. He’s leading a study to find out if it works but says the bad press generated about the drug is making it difficult to get answers.

“Now people are scared to use the drug, without any scientifically valid concern. We've talked with our colleagues at the University of Minnesota who are doing a similar study, and at the University of Washington, we've treated 400 patients that haven't seen a single adverse event. And what's happening is because of this fake news and fake science, the true scientific efforts are being harmed because people now are so worried that they don't want to enroll in the trials,” says Dr. O’Neill.

Meantime, a government advisory panel and the FDA seem to give remdesivir the edge. On May 1, the FDA allowed emergency use for severely ill coronavirus patients while stepping up cautions against hydroxychloroquine and its sister drug saying they should only be taken in the hospital or as part of a formal study due to reports of “serious heart rhythm problems.”

However, numerous scientists I spoke to say they think there could be financial incentives to promote the expensive, new, unapproved I.V. medicine remdesivir over the cheap, generic approved malaria pill hydroxychloroquine. These scientists question the report about veterans who were supposedly harmed by hydroxychloroquine saying it was not a peer-reviewed study, it was a collection of case reports with key details missing and no way to know what patients really died of or exactly how sick they were before getting hydroxychloroquine. They add hydroxychloroquine should be given early in the illness, not in the latter stages of coronavirus infection.

“I think we have to look at the money,” says Dr. Jane Orient of the American Association of Physicians and Surgeons. “There's no big profits made in hydroxychloroquine. It's very cheap, easy to manufacture, been around for 70 years. It's generic. Remdesivir is a new drug that could be very expensive. And very lucrative if it's ever approved. So I think we really do have to consider there's some financial interest in remdesivir.”

I checked financial ties among experts on the government panel devising coronavirus treatment guidelines— guidelines that had the effect of dialing back hydroxychloroquine use and giving an edge to remdesivir.

Of eleven members reporting links to a drug company, nine named relationships to remdesivir’s maker Gilead. Seven more, including two of the committee’s leaders, have ties to Gilead beyond the 11 months they had to disclose. Two were on Gilead’s advisory board. Nobody reported ties to hydroxychloroquine, which is now made by numerous generic manufacturers and is so cheap, analysts say even a spike in sales would not be a financial driver for the companies.

It’s important to note that neither drug has been FDA approved to treat or prevent coronavirus. Numerous studies are underway regarding both drugs. Scientists I spoke to say that a lot more will be known about their safety and effectiveness, when it comes to Covid-19, at the end of summer.
 

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A look into the world of 'politicized medicine' in the age of COVID-19

Meantime, popular support in the media has built behind a new I.V. drug called remdesivir, administered as a fluid into the veins. It was developed to use against Ebola, but never approved for any use when other medicines proved to be more effective. A draft version of a study was accidentally published last month showing remdesivir did not help most coronavirus patients and caused such serious side effects, 18 test subjects were taken off the drug.

Still, Dr. Anthony Fauci of the White House coronavirus task force began promoting remdesivir as “quite important” after other data that proved no lifesaving benefits but indicated it helped coronavirus patients recover four days faster.

“The data shows that remdesivir has a clear cut significant positive effect in diminishing the time to recover,” said Dr. Fauci on April 29.

We set out to find the facts about the promise and harm of these potential coronavirus treatments, minus the spin.

Cardiologist Dr. William O’Neill is a medical director at the Henry Ford Health System in Detroit, Michigan where they’re studying both remdesivir and hydroxychloroquine.

“I've never seen science [so] politicized in 40 years of practice,” Dr. O’Neill told me.

“President Trump touted [hydroxychloroquine] early and so then the media set out to disprove and discredit it without any regard for science. I think those of us that are actually involved in the scientific endeavor feel that there is some value to it and it has to be tested.”
This is simply wrong. Studies done in China and France showed it to not help and to endanger patients.
Dr. O’Neill says he’s prescribed hydroxychloroquine to help numerous coronavirus patients and saw improvement in all of them. He’s less impressed, so far, by remdesivir, calling the data on that drug (so far) “a big Ho Hum.”

The biggest promise of hydroxychloroquine, he says, could be as a medicine to prevent Covid-19. He’s leading a study to find out if it works but says the bad press generated about the drug is making it difficult to get answers.
This doesn't make sense. Answers are gotten via studies, and the press can then report them. How does the performance of the press impact the ability to get answers?
“Now people are scared to use the drug, without any scientifically valid concern. We've talked with our colleagues at the University of Minnesota who are doing a similar study, and at the University of Washington, we've treated 400 patients that haven't seen a single adverse event. And what's happening is because of this fake news and fake science, the true scientific efforts are being harmed because people now are so worried that they don't want to enroll in the trials,” says Dr. O’Neill.
Again, simply wrong. The HCQ group in the study had significantly more adverse events than the control.

I didn't have a problem w/ Donald saying that there were therapies that looked promising at one time, including HCQ, nor did I think it made him look bad when it turned out not to show any benefit. I don't expect POTUS to have any prescience about which drugs will work and which won't. What did make him look bad was doubling down in the face of evidence to the contrary; I expect POTUS to realize the limitations of his own intuition.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
It's considered by most to be unusually abusive to isolate (by whatever means) a dog for long periods. They are, afterall, social animals.

Guess who else are social animals?

("WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL OLD PEOPLE???".....overheard from a shrieking Karen).
 

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It's considered by most to be unusually abusive to isolate (by whatever means) a dog for long periods. They are, afterall, social animals.

Guess who else are social animals?

("WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL OLD PEOPLE???".....overheard from a shrieking Karen).
This may be a bit off topic....but maybe not.

For awhile now, we get way more upset about the treatment of animals than we do the mistreatment of humans.

It's sad and disturbing.
 
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