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=>good advice for women too :yay:

especially those of us who tend to be codependent doormats

You said earlier you didn't find women giving this advice.
Melody Beattie (books on codependence)
Michelle Weiner-Davis (the 180 was her idea IIRC)
The link to codependence and the Red Pill stuff is pretty strong actually; a good deal of the NMMNG idea is basically a break from a codependent relationship.

The 180 is perhaps the best advice I have ever seen for a struggling relationship and especially for a dead/dying bedroom one. Never knew where it originated.
 
I would offer that a Non Natural cannot effectively write a good book on how to be a Natural.
Nobody can write *that* book, because the "natural" can't understand the problem. So we have the books we have, which are books written by non-naturals who observe, experiment and relate what has worked... and then surround it with plausible explanation loosely based on behavioral science and evolution. The explanation honestly doesn't even matter. All that matters is whether the advice works to drive sexual interest.

My experience is that it works extremely well.

If you could take out your envy from the equation and just really hear us describe it, you may learn something more than what you can learn from a Pretend Natural.
Most of the men who have problems attracting their physical equivalent in a women, have the problem because they listened to women describe what they liked.

A book could be written explaining why that is, but it is true.
 
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Question for ya...

In the context of the Dread game, along with the ongoing issue between my wife and I regarding her difficulties verbally expressing her attraction to me...

It's a beautiful day outside, mid 80's, sunny, and I was sitting on a bench out front of my work building when a late 20's, early 30's woman sat down beside me, took off her sandal, told me it was broken and asked if I could try and fix it for her. I said sure, and after about 30 seconds or so, she started making small talk, and after a bit of that, she told me that she thought that the jeans and t-shirt weather really agreed with me.

Am I correct in thinking that if I were to say anything about that to my wife, it could likely be considered playing the dread game?
 
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Mothers are deeply blessed with children. Guess its all in the perspective you pick.

I wouldn't trade it for the world. And that is coming from a woman who didn't really want kids originally.
 
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Discussion starter · #485 ·
Question for ya...

In the context of the Dread game, along with the ongoing issue between my wife and I regarding her difficulties verbally expressing her attraction to me...

It's a beautiful day outside, mid 80's, sunny, and I was sitting on a bench out front of my work building when a late 20's, early 30's woman sat down beside me, took off her sandal, told me it was broken and asked if I could try and fix it for her. I said sure, and after about 30 seconds or so, she started making small talk, and after a bit of that, she told me that she thought that the jeans and t-shirt weather really agreed with me.

Am I correct in thinking that if I were to say anything about that to my wife, it could likely be considered playing the dread game?
Sure, but I'd actually call it Middle School Games.

ETA, sam if you want your wife to tell you more directly how hot she is for you, TELL HER TO DO THAT and keep telling her until she does it. If she gives you any crap about it like excuses, tell her you don't want to hear excuses you want to hear how sexy you are. Give her lists of things she can say if she needs that.

This is similar to what Anon Pink has to do with her husband, too.
 
Most of the men who have problems attracting their physical equivalent in a women, have the problem because they listened to women describe what they liked.

A book could be written explaining why that is, but it is true.
There's a ton of reasons why a man is having problems attracting their physical equivalent.

If 10 guys who were my level of attractiveness tried to attract me there would be plenty of various reasons why I wouldn't be. Maybe he's a jack@ss or too c@cky (seen this one plenty of times). Maybe he has baggage (had a guy try to pick me up by talking about how he lost his job, his girlfriend left him, he's going to get kicked out of his home) or his likes to wear his pants really low with a belt around his pelvis to hold them up (had one of those guys try too, WTF) Maybe he wears too much cologne or I don't like his hair.

Being too nice, in touch with my needs and listening to what I want and like, never happened.

First time I even heard of it was on TAM and I've been around a lot of life forums and of course RL friends and family.

I can see that it's an issue for some men and some women but let's just not get carried away with the "Most of the men...." stuff and like the book, thinking that there are large amount of women who don't/can't express their needs so it's up to men like AK to tell you what they are.
 
Question for ya...

In the context of the Dread game, along with the ongoing issue between my wife and I regarding her difficulties verbally expressing her attraction to me...

It's a beautiful day outside, mid 80's, sunny, and I was sitting on a bench out front of my work building when a late 20's, early 30's woman sat down beside me, took off her sandal, told me it was broken and asked if I could try and fix it for her. I said sure, and after about 30 seconds or so, she started making small talk, and after a bit of that, she told me that she thought that the jeans and t-shirt weather really agreed with me.

Am I correct in thinking that if I were to say anything about that to my wife, it could likely be considered playing the dread game?
Depends on your heart and intent when you tell her.
 
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Yes please do go get some beauty products, get muscled up, get some new clothes, get some nice smelling after shave, pluck all your wayward hairs, brush your teeth, get a haircut and trim your toenails. Women everywhere will appreciate it.
There is a big difference between grooming/hygiene and dying your hair and concealing wrinkles to be thought youthfully attractive.

Men generally don't do these things, because we don't have to. The man with the graying beard does about as well with women as the man with a dyed beard. This isn't so for women. Thus in the average store, there's a few dying products available for men, and an entire isle of them for women.
 
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Discussion starter · #490 ·
I can't watch it right now but will later, Ikaika. You lighten things up just by being here. ;)
 
There is a big difference between grooming/hygiene and dying your hair and concealing wrinkles to be thought youthfully attractive.

Men generally don't do these things, because we don't have to. The man with the graying beard does about as well with women as the man with a dyed beard. This isn't so for women. Thus in the average store, there's a few dying products available for men, and an entire isle of them for women.
Actually I know a couple of guys in their 50's who do a lot of the same grooming and "concealing" of aging that women do. My immediate boss, dyes his mustache to hide the silver.
 
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Discussion starter · #493 ·
Actually I know a couple of guys in their 50's who do a lot of the same grooming and "concealing" of aging that women do. My immediate boss, dyes his mustache to hide the silver.
The entire PUA industry is based on men's insecurities....men of all ages. The idea that men don't care about this stuff is pure nonsense....of course they care, why else would they be constantly trying to gain advantage over other men by whatever means possible.
 
Actually I know a couple of guys in their 50's who do a lot of the same grooming and "concealing" of aging that women do. My immediate boss, dyes his mustache to hide the silver.
I'm 52, and the gray is starting to take over, especially my beard.

Hell with it, though. I've earned every single one of those gray hairs.
 
Sure, but I'd actually call it Middle School Games.

ETA, sam if you want your wife to tell you more directly how hot she is for you, TELL HER TO DO THAT and keep telling her until she does it. If she gives you any crap about it like excuses, tell her you don't want to hear excuses you want to hear how sexy you are. Give her lists of things she can say if she needs that.

This is similar to what Anon Pink has to do with her husband, too.
It goes without saying, I've no intention of saying a word to her about this afternoon.

It has been a work in progress with kind of a two steps forward, two steps back...more thoughts later.
 
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There is a big difference between grooming/hygiene and dying your hair and concealing wrinkles to be thought youthfully attractive.

Men generally don't do these things, because we don't have to. The man with the graying beard does about as well with women as the man with a dyed beard. This isn't so for women. Thus in the average store, there's a few dying products available for men, and an entire isle of them for women.
I don't get why this fact has any relevance. There are also aisles of make-up at any drug store, and it's almost entirely for females from 11 or 12 years old and up. Young women dye their hair, too.

Even very young girls like to wear make-up and get mani-pedis with their Moms. I know people who get jewelry for very young girls, even babies with their ears pierced.

Beauty enhancement is a life-long thing for most women.

So is it really some kind of statement on the value of women's appearance vs. men's appearance in middle age and up that there are more beauty products for women?

In a way, the very fact that there is "cover the gray" product for men kinda suggests that men start to get nervous about aging, too. I think they sure do worry about it. Unlike the beauty products for women, you don't see that kind of stuff for the young men, yeah? It is only when they get older that they start to stress about it.

Yes, women age. So do men. I think "older women are wrinkled and lonely and have no value" is just a myth. I don't see it at all in real life, for either men or women.
 
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