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Discussion Starter #21
I haven't read the book, but I would disagree that the male is selfish to make sure the woman is taken care of first. I consider myself to be a very generous lover, but after my own orgasm there just isn't anything left in the tank until I've recovered for a bit(snuggling and afterglow yes, but going down on my wife will have to wait for a few minutes). In fact I think it's very unselfish of the man to make sure his wife/gf has been well taken care of first. I'd be curious to hear from women on this. Maybe Schnarch is suggesting it's a female empowerment thing? Doesn't really make sense to me.
I think Schnarch is trying to say that perhaps females feel the same way (sometimes). After she has had hers then maybe she doesn't have anything left to give. Perhaps she might enjoy allowing her man to go first and then take her time afterwards knowing she just can enjoy herself.

Admitting you have nothing left to give after you get yours, I think Schnarch is making it a point to say oral does NOT have that limitation.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
I wouldn’t mind if my boyfriend Os first If he was enthusiastic about giving oral to me after until I cum.

Personally I’m exhausted after I orgasm.
And there it is!

In Schnarch's opinion all women should at least be given this as an option to explore.
 

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I always make sure my wife is well taken care of before I get mine. She has never once complained about it or communicated that she wants to take care of me first. In fact after she has had several orgasms, it actually enhances her O when we go PIV. I guess everyone is different though, but it works for us. My refractory period isn't that long either, so I'm ready to go again in as little as 10 to 15 minutes.
I am not saying you are selfish or that you don't please your wife. I used your quote as an example of how most people are after they O. They don't want to do more stuff, so if you always give your wife an O, then she has to please you, it is selfish.

I think there is a difference between giving her an O then having sex, vs giving her an O then she needs to service you. The first is fine I think, and the 2nd isn't. There are too many variables to really cover what happens in every bedroom. If it is the 2nd, then that is selfish.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
I always make sure my wife is well taken care of before I get mine. She has never once complained about it or communicated that she wants to take care of me first. In fact after she has had several orgasms, it actually enhances her O when we go PIV. I guess everyone is different though, but it works for us. My refractory period isn't that long either, so I'm ready to go again in as little as 10 to 15 minutes.

I am not saying you are selfish or that you don't please your wife. I used your quote as an example of how most people are after they O. They don't want to do more stuff, so if you always give your wife an O, then she has to please you, it is selfish.

I think there is a difference between giving her an O then having sex, vs giving her an O then she needs to service you. The first is fine I think, and the 2nd isn't. There are too many variables to really cover what happens in every bedroom. If it is the 2nd, then that is selfish.
I had to read that a few times to understand, and I imagine that many men can't tell the difference between the 1st and 2nd examples to which you refer. Add to that the fact that many men have sensitive egos and need "encouragement" in order to climax and it starts to paint a rather interesting picture.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
What does he say about women that prefer intercourse over anything else?
I'm still reading, but the emphasis on oral is that it breaks down sexuality into four areas of focus:

1) Husband enjoying giving oral to his wife
2) Wife enjoying receiving oral from her husband
3) Wife enjoying giving oral to her husband
4) Husband enjoying receiving oral from his wife

When isolated all four of those aspects of sexuality should be equally as enjoyable for everyone involved. By avoiding oral a spouse can effectively hide one of these areas of sexuality that is problematic. So a wife that prefers intercourse may want to avoid problems in 1), 2), 3) and/or 4) that have become too emotionally difficult to address in the marriage. By avoiding these problems she is being selfish because her husband can't be aware of the respective problem and help her solve it. Or he may be aware of the problem and downright refuse to work on it.

1), 2), 3), & 4) are all aspects of just giving and receiving pleasure. Oral sex only happens to be a useful tool to discover where the problem is that is not limited by the ability of the husband to maintain an erection.

Regards,
Badsanta
 

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Why oral? And theoretically can’t you apply these concepts to any sexual act? Like anal, handjobs/fingering etc. why did this author decide everyone must love oral and if they don’t there is something wrong with them.
 

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NOTE TO SELF: I am a female human being "of a certain age." I like sex and can O relatively easily (I think). And I somewhat agree with Schnarch that if I felt like I "had to" O first and then he'd get his, I would think of that as kind of selfish on the guy's part. Here's why:

When I O it takes considerable mental focus and physical energy. Afterward, I like to recover a moment. It's my suspicion that guys are this way too--it takes mental and physical focus, and a little time afterward to catch the breath. But if I "have to" O first, then I don't ever get to relax and enjoy it or catch my breath. I would feel pressured to O...then the moment I'm energetically empty, I'd feel pressured to do a bunch of energetic work.

On the other hand, if it is the same for guys, I would suspect if they "had to" O first and they felt energetically "done"...why then they would feel the same way if they had to do me!

Thus I think the solution does not necessarily have to be oral sex. I think variety is the solution. Sometimes just me. Sometimes just him. Sometimes me first. Sometimes him first. Sometimes oral followed by PIV. Sometimes PIV followed by oral. Sometimes just oral by both of us! And the whole, big, over-arching theme of all that variety is focusing on giving your partner PLEASURE, rather than focusing on pressure, expectations, or your own self. If both put the focus on sharing pleasure, then I think both can be happily satisfied.
 

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If we make it more generic:

1) HD enjoying giving oral to LD
2) LD enjoying receiving oral from HD
3) LD enjoying giving oral to HD
4) HD enjoying receiving oral from LD
The problem typically is that #2 and #3 are not very common. The LD person typically neither enjoys giving nor receiving oral. Typically, they have little or no interest in anything sexual at all. It would have to be a specific kind of HD/LD mismatch where the kind of oral dynamic recommended in the book would work. I can't imagine it would be an effective tactic for many of the HD/LD situations people post on TAM. In many of the threads, the LD person doesn't seem interested in sex or in solutions for how to enjoy sex more.

It's like if your kid didn't like broccoli and a book said that if they eat more brussel spouts, then they'll like broccoli more. All the problems you have getting your kid to eat broccoli are going to be the same problems you have trying to get them to eat brussel sprouts. Even if it's true, the implementation doesn't seem feasible.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Why oral? And theoretically can’t you apply these concepts to any sexual act? Like anal, handjobs/fingering etc. why did this author decide everyone must love oral and if they don’t there is something wrong with them.
Oral forces one to come face to face with issues of sexual disgust that is likely causing significant problems in a relationship.

There is also the theoretical concept of a strong dose of pheromones (via the smell and taste of one's partner) helping to make sexual connections in the brain that may be underdeveloped.
 

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Thus I think the solution does not necessarily have to be oral sex. I think variety is the solution. Sometimes just me. Sometimes just him. Sometimes me first. Sometimes him first. Sometimes oral followed by PIV. Sometimes PIV followed by oral. Sometimes just oral by both of us! And the whole, big, over-arching theme of all that variety is focusing on giving your partner PLEASURE, rather than focusing on pressure, expectations, or your own self. If both put the focus on sharing pleasure, then I think both can be happily satisfied.
We too are of a certain age. There is way more 68 (I’ll do you now, you’ll get me soon enough) than when younger.

And yes, it’s the journey, not the destination. I struggled with that for a while.
 

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If we make it more generic:



The problem typically is that #2 and #3 are not very common. The LD person typically neither enjoys giving nor receiving oral. Typically, they have little or no interest in anything sexual at all. It would have to be a specific kind of HD/LD mismatch where the kind of oral dynamic recommended in the book would work. I can't imagine it would be an effective tactic for many of the HD/LD situations people post on TAM. In many of the threads, the LD person doesn't seem interested in sex or in solutions for how to enjoy sex more.

It's like if your kid didn't like broccoli and a book said that if they eat more brussel spouts, then they'll like broccoli more. All the problems you have getting your kid to eat broccoli are going to be the same problems you have trying to get them to eat brussel sprouts. Even if it's true, the implementation doesn't seem feasible.
Yep.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
NOTE TO SELF: I am a female human being "of a certain age." I like sex and can O relatively easily (I think). And I somewhat agree with Schnarch that if I felt like I "had to" O first and then he'd get his, I would think of that as kind of selfish on the guy's part. Here's why:

When I O it takes considerable mental focus and physical energy. Afterward, I like to recover a moment. It's my suspicion that guys are this way too--it takes mental and physical focus, and a little time afterward to catch the breath. But if I "have to" O first, then I don't ever get to relax and enjoy it or catch my breath. I would feel pressured to O...then the moment I'm energetically empty, I'd feel pressured to do a bunch of energetic work.

On the other hand, if it is the same for guys, I would suspect if they "had to" O first and they felt energetically "done"...why then they would feel the same way if they had to do me!

Thus I think the solution does not necessarily have to be oral sex. I think variety is the solution. Sometimes just me. Sometimes just him. Sometimes me first. Sometimes him first. Sometimes oral followed by PIV. Sometimes PIV followed by oral. Sometimes just oral by both of us! And the whole, big, over-arching theme of all that variety is focusing on giving your partner PLEASURE, rather than focusing on pressure, expectations, or your own self. If both put the focus on sharing pleasure, then I think both can be happily satisfied.

Thanks for sharing!

I find different perspectives like this perhaps the most valuable aspect of TAM!

:)
 

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Oral forces one to come face to face with issues of sexual disgust that is likely causing significant problems in a relationship.
What are these “issues of sexual disgust“ of which you speak?

There is also the theoretical concept of a strong dose of pheromones (via the smell and taste of one's partner) helping to make sexual connections in the brain that may be underdeveloped.
I can buy that.
 

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Discussion Starter #34 (Edited)
The problem typically is that #2 and #3 are not very common. The LD person typically neither enjoys giving nor receiving oral. Typically, they have little or no interest in anything sexual at all. It would have to be a specific kind of HD/LD mismatch where the kind of oral dynamic recommended in the book would work. I can't imagine it would be an effective tactic for many of the HD/LD situations people post on TAM. In many of the threads, the LD person doesn't seem interested in sex or in solutions for how to enjoy sex more.

Schnarch argues that exact opposite!!!!!

He says the LD refuses to give or receive pleasure because they know exactly what that feels like when it is good and they can't get it from the HD!
 

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I am not saying you are selfish or that you don't please your wife. I used your quote as an example of how most people are after they O. They don't want to do more stuff, so if you always give your wife an O, then she has to please you, it is selfish.

I think there is a difference between giving her an O then having sex, vs giving her an O then she needs to service you. The first is fine I think, and the 2nd isn't. There are too many variables to really cover what happens in every bedroom. If it is the 2nd, then that is selfish.
As I said, after I've given her multiple O's it enhances PIV. So no I don't expect her to service me after I've given hers. I agree that would be a selfish expectation, and yes I fall under the 1st scenario the majority of the time. But if she decides she is not done with me then that's a whole other story:)

Bottom line is what works for some won't work for others, and vice versa.
 

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I wouldn’t mind if my boyfriend Os first If he was enthusiastic about giving oral to me after until I cum.
In theory this sounds great, but in practice honestly how many men do you think could/would follow through with this right after their own orgasm. I would put money on it being a very low percentage. Like I said before, it takes me minimally 10-15 minutes before I can perform any additional acts, but once I'm ready I can and regularly do give to my wife with no expectation of an orgasm of my own. I love giving that to my wife and could spend all day doing it.
 

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An example might be women that do not want semen in their mouth. Schnarch also argues that men should be comfortable with this as well if she were to want oral after his own PIV climax.
Both are totally alien in my marriage. But thanks for the book review, I’ll go see The Joker instead ;)

But seriously, interesting discussion, thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
In theory this sounds great, but in practice honestly how many men do you think could/would follow through with this right after their own orgasm. I would put money on it being a very low percentage.
Sounds like a great poll to put up on TAM! I am however not sure if doing so violates the rule that fantasies can not be polled.
 
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