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Discussion Starter · #81 ·
Here's another scenario. And then I'll stop! Bc I could go on forever here about all this.

A few weeks ago went went to a local restaurant to the bar to watch a football game.
It wasn't crowded but the bartender was busy with restaurant guests. She was not particularly friendly. Or pretty. She was also quite rude until she realized we'd be ordering stuff throughout the game. Then she was friendlier. Cute figure, decent features but not pretty per se. Otherwise I would've been subtly watching husband given what's going on. I didn't give her a second thought then other than ordering from her and being polite etc.

4th quarter I leave to use restroom. I return and settle in for last plays. Game is close so I'm excited about that and focused. Until I see the dramatic hair flip. At the register, somewhat in front of us, she did this weird head flip that flung her hair out and around. It was weird. I instantly looked at my husband. He shrugged his shoulders.
She had a sheepish grin on her face. She'd not been smiling the whole time. Then she approached me in an in-your-face way but also subtle, a bit snarky asking "would you like another drink?" I'd had plenty of a low-alcohol cider. And the game was about to end. I understood her asking once or twice, but 3-4 times when I'd already said no thank you? It felt like she was mocking me. My husband shrugged. It occurred to me this is the behavior - so did he do the flirty thing with her while I was in the bathroom? It seemed he did. Her behavior changed so dramatically. Something else could've happened too in that time yes, but this is a constant thing.

If he did do something I think he really has a mental health issue with neediness.
 

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Ah yes, the hair flip! We ladies know it when we see it. 😂 She may have been flirting with him after you went to the bathroom, maybe not.
I wouldn't make too much of her actions. Now if they exchanged numbers or contact info, then you might have a problem.
Otherwise don't give her another thought.
 

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@MichelleMyBelle sounds like you're married to a grownup
I'm apparently married to someone stuck at 20
He's a good guy, but we've had our problems. I shared some of it in the section for New Members. We do have our issues...he did a bait and switch when it came to kids (he doesn't want them, I do). We had a sexless marriage for a long time (but that changed in 2020). He wouldn't touch me, so kind of like what you're dealing with now.
And like your husband, he can do the silent treatment AND there have been some issues with coworkers/an ex-girlfriend/porn/being a bit too friendly with other women.

So we have similar problems, but that's why we are here, right? To talk and hopefully help one another in whatever way we can.
Your husband might have some redeeming qualities but he needs to deal with his addiction to flirting with other women.
I wonder if his mom or whatever woman raised him neglected him? Maybe that's why there is this need to seek validation from women? He has to get a grip because we are in the time of #MeToo and at some point, this behavior will cross the line and get him in trouble.
 

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Discussion Starter · #85 ·
He's a good guy, but we've had our problems. I shared some of it in the section for New Members. We do have our issues...he did a bait and switch when it came to kids (he doesn't want them, I do). We had a sexless marriage for a long time (but that changed in 2020). He wouldn't touch me, so kind of like what you're dealing with now.
And like your husband, he can do the silent treatment AND there have been some issues with coworkers/an ex-girlfriend/porn/being a bit too friendly with other women.

So we have similar problems, but that's why we are here, right? To talk and hopefully help one another in whatever way we can.
Your husband might have some redeeming qualities but he needs to deal with his addiction to flirting with other women.
I wonder if his mom or whatever woman raised him neglected him? Maybe that's why there is this need to seek validation from women? He has to get a grip because we are in the time of #MeToo and at some point, this behavior will cross the line and get him in trouble.
@MichelleMyBelle I made time this afternoon to look at your op.
So sorry you're going through this. I'm painfully relating to much of your tone, with trying to be fair to your H, for feeling guilty for suspecting him if he's not, to trying to factor in your own contributions to problems, to being compassionate with him, all while trying to protect yourself... because all your instincts are telling you what you are praying is not happening.

I've had time this week to write all this and seek help and guidance and to go back to similar threads (and yours) and it's been incredibly helpful. My husband has been away this week on business. And true to all other posters' warnings, because I decided to confront him, and we had massive fights over his behavior in the past month, he's being very very careful. And that is sending up more red flags for me. He left out his iPad on his desk - the iPad I'd begun to think of as his lover, he's so attached to it - and it's cleared of everything.

I took the risk of confronting him before having evidence because I don't know that I'll ever have any. I felt his behavior was so odd that he was surely now actually in love with one of his flirtations and was anguished over wanting to tell me he'd leave me. So I pressed, expecting him to say, Yes! I'm seeing someone, and I'm in love!
At one point he did look at me and say very confidently "YOU have NO proof" (caps intended to convey voice emphasis).
Then I would finally be able to wrap up this ambiguity. And make sense of his ambiguity and secrecy and odd behavior (much like your husband's).
He has a security-heavy job so I won't be able to put anything in his car, but will try on the weekends.

I'm afraid he's been doing stuff on the side our entire marriage (and as you know pre-marriage) so often that to him, this is his life. And I'm as integral to it as anything. He does not want it disrupted. He gets me, and them (whatever that means to them and him. I wrote a poem pouring out (pun intended!) my feelings when I first suspected something with the coffee shop girl. I'll reply with is below b/c I think many may be able to relate.

Indeed is a job search tool. As another poster wrote so is LinkedIn. Don't have to already be employed for either. With your gentle nature and natural compassion, and you seem so calm, you would be great at so many jobs. I would look to local government too - to county workforce centers. There are counselors you can talk to. They want to pair people with jobs! As other posters noted, we're in a spell of high employment rates and this is the perfect time to get your foot in the door.
There may even be education grants relevant to your situation.
I thank you for your support and kind words to me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #86 ·
Ok I've written many poems to help me through this and they're with a publisher I"m happy to say.
This is one, that may resonate with TAM folks.


Ardently you support and nurture
small local businesses
revealing principles refined over time

Young proprietress observes you
she smiles
she thanks you
but is taking note

And imagines you lead a certain lifestyle
And that you're rich

with characteristics
she's fearful
she'll never have

She wants your Life
with your smug husband

relishing a conquest
of another gullible admirer
Prepared or not

at having ushered in
the worst possible enemy

Who will grasp after
the life we've made
that she holds in her imagination

The scheming shrinks
their shallow souls

While they pretend
they've found love
But nurture no one
 

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Discussion Starter · #87 ·
Here is some proof but it was 15 years ago...
we had just moved to foreign country and our living arrangement was not appropriate. We had 7 mo old baby and toddler. We were isolated.
My 20-something brother and his wife were living in this country and came to visit for the day My brother had to be on the phone outside in their car for an hour or so. H, SIL, baby and I are all sitting together in the living room. I had to leave to bf the baby.

H and SIL already knew each other well, apparently better than I realized, b/c he'd taken business trips there and hung out with SIL and my brother.

SIL had professed to feeling very lonely and ignored by my brother while he finished his schooling. She is a pampered princess. Very spoiled. So my brother was treating her very well in fact, just not giving her everything she needed which is a lot.....

I return from feeding the baby and these two are almost on each other's laps. Had they been kissing? I don't know. It seemed possible. I was horrified. I felt violated and vulnerable. With a new baby I couldn't accept my husband had done this. So we stopped seeing my brother and SIL and I blamed her. Yes I was furious with my husband and knew he had a role. But I saw her as the instigator (she's incredibly boundary-less and flirtatious in any event). In the end I told my brother what happened. I told him she owed me an apology. When we needed their support she undermined my world. I'm friendly with her now all these years later and forgive her... she was immature and spoiled and entitled, and I know now my husband probably encouraged her.
 

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@MichelleMyBelle I made time this afternoon to look at your op.
So sorry you're going through this. I'm painfully relating to much of your tone, with trying to be fair to your H, for feeling guilty for suspecting him if he's not, to trying to factor in your own contributions to problems, to being compassionate with him, all while trying to protect yourself... because all your instincts are telling you what you are praying is not happening.

I've had time this week to write all this and seek help and guidance and to go back to similar threads (and yours) and it's been incredibly helpful. My husband has been away this week on business. And true to all other posters' warnings, because I decided to confront him, and we had massive fights over his behavior in the past month, he's being very very careful. And that is sending up more red flags for me. He left out his iPad on his desk - the iPad I'd begun to think of as his lover, he's so attached to it - and it's cleared of everything.

I took the risk of confronting him before having evidence because I don't know that I'll ever have any. I felt his behavior was so odd that he was surely now actually in love with one of his flirtations and was anguished over wanting to tell me he'd leave me. So I pressed, expecting him to say, Yes! I'm seeing someone, and I'm in love!
At one point he did look at me and say very confidently "YOU have NO proof" (caps intended to convey voice emphasis).
Then I would finally be able to wrap up this ambiguity. And make sense of his ambiguity and secrecy and odd behavior (much like your husband's).
He has a security-heavy job so I won't be able to put anything in his car, but will try on the weekends.

I'm afraid he's been doing stuff on the side our entire marriage (and as you know pre-marriage) so often that to him, this is his life. And I'm as integral to it as anything. He does not want it disrupted. He gets me, and them (whatever that means to them and him. I wrote a poem pouring out (pun intended!) my feelings when I first suspected something with the coffee shop girl. I'll reply with is below b/c I think many may be able to relate.

Indeed is a job search tool. As another poster wrote so is LinkedIn. Don't have to already be employed for either. With your gentle nature and natural compassion, and you seem so calm, you would be great at so many jobs. I would look to local government too - to county workforce centers. There are counselors you can talk to. They want to pair people with jobs! As other posters noted, we're in a spell of high employment rates and this is the perfect time to get your foot in the door.
There may even be education grants relevant to your situation.
I thank you for your support and kind words to me.
That's so sweet, Status Check! Your kind words are much appreciated also. My fears job-wise are age, an "unspecified" disability (I'll explain more later) and what I see as being a lack of marketable job skills in today's world.
I feel like there isn't much out there for somebody like me. It doesn't stop me from trying but it's tough. And thanks for help in that area too...some people on here saw that I am unemployed and pounced on that immediately.
Like you, I was also accused of using my husband as a meal ticket. So again, thanks to you and anyone else who chooses not to judge a complete stranger on an Internet forum, but instead to be helpful. 😊

Anyway, threadjack over...but what you said makes me so sad for you. Do you think your husband has actually fallen in love with somebody? Coffee shop girl?
It sounds like you might think he took things to that level. I hope for your sake, he is innocent. If not, what will you do?
I wonder how the kids will be affected by his actions?

Also...I considered putting a VAR in the car too, but in some states you can get into trouble for that. It depends on where you live.
Not sure of what it all entails, but I know of cases where people tried to catch a cheater that way and they broke the law (without knowing that, of course).
So maybe do some research before you do it, just to be on the safe side.
 

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Here is some proof but it was 15 years ago...
we had just moved to foreign country and our living arrangement was not appropriate. We had 7 mo old baby and toddler. We were isolated.
My 20-something brother and his wife were living in this country and came to visit for the day My brother had to be on the phone outside in their car for an hour or so. H, SIL, baby and I are all sitting together in the living room. I had to leave to bf the baby.

H and SIL already knew each other well, apparently better than I realized, b/c he'd taken business trips there and hung out with SIL and my brother.

SIL had professed to feeling very lonely and ignored by my brother while he finished his schooling. She is a pampered princess. Very spoiled. So my brother was treating her very well in fact, just not giving her everything she needed which is a lot.....

I return from feeding the baby and these two are almost on each other's laps. Had they been kissing? I don't know. It seemed possible. I was horrified. I felt violated and vulnerable. With a new baby I couldn't accept my husband had done this. So we stopped seeing my brother and SIL and I blamed her. Yes I was furious with my husband and knew he had a role. But I saw her as the instigator (she's incredibly boundary-less and flirtatious in any event). In the end I told my brother what happened. I told him she owed me an apology. When we needed their support she undermined my world. I'm friendly with her now all these years later and forgive her... she was immature and spoiled and entitled, and I know now my husband probably encouraged her.
Wow, I'm sorry. It sounds like there is indeed a long history of him treating you this way and you took him back each time.
Maybe he needs to learn that you are tired of this, and there will finally be consequences to his actions? I also understand wanting to blame these other women for their disrespect to you (as his wife). He seems to be the main problem here, though...his lack of self-control and no boundaries.

These women couldn't do what they do with him if he didn't encourage it. A hot guy could flirt with me, even take his clothes off in front of me, and I still would remain loyal to my husband.
It's about integrity even if other opportunities present themselves. We all have choices...we can do what feels good at the moment, even when we know it's wrong.
Or we can choose to live life in an honest, respectful way that doesn't harm others. Your husband doesn't seem to care how his actions affect you.

He won't care until you show him that you mean business.
 

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Ok I've written many poems to help me through this and they're with a publisher I"m happy to say.
This is one, that may resonate with TAM folks.


Ardently you support and nurture
small local businesses
revealing principles refined over time

Young proprietress observes you
she smiles
she thanks you
but is taking note

And imagines you lead a certain lifestyle
And that you're rich

with characteristics
she's fearful
she'll never have

She wants your Life
with your smug husband

relishing a conquest
of another gullible admirer
Prepared or not

at having ushered in
the worst possible enemy

Who will grasp after
the life we've made
that she holds in her imagination

The scheming shrinks
their shallow souls

While they pretend
they've found love
But nurture no one
Wow, this is original and well written! It captures your feelings very well...and I would imagine, many people can relate.
This is definitely the coffee shop girl you are describing, then? It sounds like out of all the women, SHE is the one that bothers you the most (even more than the Aussie he fooled around with).

Have you had a chance to talk with her? Again, this is a heartfelt poem you wrote. I'm sorry you are going through this.
 

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He left out his iPad on his desk - the iPad I'd begun to think of as his lover, he's so attached to it - and it's cleared of everything.
This is a red flag. Leaving it out as a taunt?

Do you realize a PI could likely answer all of your questions in a few days. I have no idea what they cost, believe on average $100/hour. They do this sort of thing all of the time. Most attorneys have access to them so maybe your attorney could put you in contact with one. You will be able to confirm or refute your suspicions in a short period of time.

You have been suspecting things for years, you think he has cheated on you for the entire marriage. IMO would have thought at least one of his lovers ( if there indeed were any ) would have confronted you already and told you she wanted him. Or he would have slipped up and left a love letter on the kitchen table. Personally, I think you are extrapolating from some flirting to something that isn't there. What woman is going to spend time with an attached guy who is all hat and no cattle, when they can easily find an available one ready for action?
 

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Discussion Starter · #92 ·
This is a red flag. Leaving it out as a taunt?

Do you realize a PI could likely answer all of your questions in a few days. I have no idea what they cost, believe on average $100/hour. They do this sort of thing all of the time. Most attorneys have access to them so maybe your attorney could put you in contact with one. You will be able to confirm or refute your suspicions in a short period of time.

You have been suspecting things for years, you think he has cheated on you for the entire marriage. IMO would have thought at least one of his lovers ( if there indeed were any ) would have confronted you already and told you she wanted him. Or he would have slipped up and left a love letter on the kitchen table. Personally, I think you are extrapolating from some flirting to something that isn't there. What woman is going to spend time with a guy who is all hat and no cattle.
Yes great points. I have to get closure, but he does know I'm very aware of whatever it is now. And he trusts that I can find ways to find out. But yes, the ipad. A taunt? Absolutely feels that way. Lets see if he keeps leaving it out when he returns from this trip.
 

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Yes great points. I have to get closure, but he does know I'm very aware of whatever it is now. And he trusts that I can find ways to find out. But yes, the ipad. A taunt? Absolutely feels that way. Lets see if he keeps leaving it out when he returns from this trip.
Wife n I have two Ipads, 3 iphones, two computers. They are all full of junk from when we first bought them. We are very bad about purging stuff. Your husband must be really organized to clean it. Btw we use one anothers electronics interchangeably. Our passwords are the same.
 

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Discussion Starter · #94 ·
Yes great points. I have to get closure, but he does know I'm very aware of whatever it is now. And he trusts that I can find ways to find out. But yes, the ipad. A taunt? Absolutely feels that way. Lets see if he keeps leaving it out when he returns from this trip.
Wife n I have two Ipads, 3 iphones, two computers. They are all full of junk from when we first bought them. We are very bad about purging stuff. Your husband must be really organized to clean it. Btw we use one anothers electronics interchangeably. Our passwords are the same.
That's so sweet. I'm not kidding. I love that. I aspire to have that kind of relationship.
 

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You do realize do t you - that he would owe you spousal support if you divorce? Have you checked on the laws in your area? Would you get half of all assets should you divorce?

abd yes, he’s completely inappropriate - and shows no boundaries. He probably likes the ego boosts.

but a 17 year old girl sucking on a long lollipop standing in front of him - while he is just staring her down is completely icky! And while all the adults watched too! He didn’t walk away, he didn’t stop any of it… that is just GROSS a on his part!

id check with an atty - at minimum - to see what you’re entitled to! And I would definitely consider leaving! He’s harming your marriage by having no boundaries and by using body language to invite in inappropriate situations!

i would be grossed out sleeping with someone like that at night!
 

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None of these women would be interacting inappropriately with him if he wasn’t sending out signals with giving them a huge green light!
He likely needs the ego boosts and has no boundaries.
These aren’t things you can change for him.
He’s also not likely to ever change anything as long as he’s comfortable.
People mainly change when they are uncomfortable.

I also support going the PI route. You need some solid info.

do you have any cameras in your home? If you had them - would you see anything in his phone that may help you if the cameras could pick up on what he’s doing when you’re not paying attention?
 

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A friend of mine hired a PI when he found a burner phone in one of his wife's shoes in her closet. He was charged 120$ an hour. Inside of 2 weeks he had all of the proof he needed to file for divorce.
Do you know what his bill was? Could imagine north of $2400 would be reasonable, presume the PI wasn't working just your friend's case. Even that would be worth it to settle something OP has been concerned about for 15 years.

OTOH, the existence of the burned phone is really all the "proof" needed. He could have filed with a clear conscience and in most jurisdictions the court cares nothing about the circumstances.
 

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Do you know what his bill was? Could imagine north of $2400 would be reasonable, presume the PI wasn't working just your friend's case. Even that would be worth it to settle something OP has been concerned about for 15 years.

OTOH, the existence of the burned phone is really all the "proof" needed. He could have filed with a clear conscience and in most jurisdictions the court cares nothing about the circumstances.
The PI got pictures and video of his wife and AP together. It was her boss. The PI also gained access to the burner phone, so he got all the texts and emails. It was an android phone. He said it was the best 2800 he ever spent. Well worth it.

I'm going to ask him if I can post his story
Maybe it would help someone else
 
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