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Discussion Starter #21
OP, I have to ask… when did you cheat on your spouse? And if not in Fidelity, what pattern of behavior or act is it that you have committed that you think we would recommend divorce 4? Rarely is anyone this defensive and less they are the one who has the flaw that usually creates the suggestion for divorce.
Not trying to be defensive. I was only making an observation of what I was seeing to be so common. I totally understand many truly are better off & I’m not saying divorce shouldn’t be suggested. I know a few who should have never married & should get divorced themselves. I know some who 1 or the other has cheated & they reconciled. I know some who both have cheated & they reconciled. Then I know others who went straight for divorce. I get it’s different for each couple. I’m just new here & still learning my way around how the minds of the seasoned work.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
These are your boundaries. Just as everyone else is free to have their own boundaries.
Addictions & infidelity can still be worked through to make it to the other side. To each their own but, rushing to tell someone else they must divorce without truly knowing the person(s) involved or their background is pretty heavy.

You are so right -
not disagreeing with that at all.

Abuse - sure. Nobody should live in fear of their life, if that’s the case.

Disrespect - that can depend what one’s definition of disrespect is... ex:
-Husband A considers his wife disrespectful bc she put him on blast in front of a group of their friends.
-Husband B considers his wife disrespectful bc she spent time with a long time girl friend he dislikes or disapproves of.

As far as these cases go with disrespect, I’d agree Husband A has a right to be upset & repeated “disrespect” like this would be an issue. However, I would disagree that Husband B has a right to be upset or choose his wife’s friends. That’s not grounds for divorce, although he may twist that into “disrespect” based on his own “rules”. Husband B isn’t disrespected, he’s just manipulative.
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Addictions & infidelity can still be worked through to make it to the other side. To each their own but, rushing to tell someone else they must divorce without truly knowing the person(s) involved or their background is pretty heavy.
Then, you go on to say:

Abuse - sure. Nobody should live in fear of their life, if that’s the case.
I find it odd that you believe one and not the other, until the other side is heard.

Disrespect - that can depend what one’s definition of disrespect is... ex:
-Husband A considers his wife disrespectful bc she put him on blast in front of a group of their friends.
-Husband B considers his wife disrespectful bc she spent time with a long time girl friend he dislikes or disapproves of.

As far as these cases go with disrespect, I’d agree Husband A has a right to be upset & repeated “disrespect” like this would be an issue. However, I would disagree that Husband B has a right to be upset or choose his wife’s friends. That’s not grounds for divorce, although he may twist that into “disrespect” based on his own “rules”. Husband B isn’t disrespected, he’s just manipulative.
Most times, being there is "No Fault" divorce, there doesn't have to be any issue, just a desire not to be married any longer.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
I do see your point about desiring a healthy & happy relationship. I like what you said for the most part. However, I do disagree when you assume my POV is “naive”. I kind of laughed at that point. I definitely have enough age & experience to know about unconditional love. I may be younger than yourself, I don’t know, but I’m not a starter in this roller coasters of life. I’m new to TAM, not marriage.

One difference I have from some that may have something to do with my differences of views with some comments is that many of the OP are or have been divorced whereas I am not nor have I ever been. From our parents down, including siblings, my SO & I are the only couple in our family who have never divorced... well, I do have a sibling who is still early in marriage & young on her first (23, married 3 yrs). All others have divorced at least once, most multiple times; 1 is dating a potential #5. I’m not opposed to divorce as it may have come across, & I’m not judging, neither here or in our family/friends, just saying I think this is a big part of why we choose to fight harder through the bad times instead of giving up. 😊

The issue that you are failing to see is most of us here want people to be in healthy and happy relationships. If they aren't they can either choose to fight for it or call it quits, and there isn't a universal response. The people that already have a healthy self-esteem and boundaries don't need anyone here giving them advice, but the posters that are out of their element need to decide for themselves if the person they are thinking about fighting for is healthy relationship material or will take them for a long unhappy ride.

My POV is that I am an emotionally healthy and giving man and expect an emotionally healthy and giving partner in return, and that is not negotiable. I also recognize that the time I have on this earth is limited and I do not believe in wasting it on people that aren't worthy of it, and that is also not negotiable. I advocate for other people to make decisions that they are proud of, whether that is staying in a relationship or recognizing when it is time to end one really is immaterial as long as the person is doing what is right for them. Most of the major problems that people come on this board to ask advice for really should be handled with divorce because the odds of fixing a major character flaw in a partner that has no desire to change is infinitesimally low.

As far as your comment about loving someone, you have a naïve POV. At a certain age and experience you'll realize that love is not unconditional except in very limited situations (e.g. between parents and their children) and for everyone else it is conditional. That means love for a person can fade or disappear given certain situations like abuse and infidelity...so then what is the point of fighting for those people?? A healthier outlook is choosing to only be with someone that wants to be with you and is committed towards it, and to get rid of those that don't fit that paradigm.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
In the 2nd quote, I was meaning physical or verbal abuse, not abuse of drugs or alcohol. But, I do understand addiction can be just as bad or worse in some cases. My FIL was a bad alcoholic until a few years after my MIL divorced him. They were married 20-something yrs. It wasn’t until he had his last major stroke that he finally stopped drinking & smoking. He was actually drunk when I met him... & during that last stroke stay, he remained legally intoxicated for 3 days.

I think I just saw SO many suggesting divorce so quick that it seemed to be an automatic response. I do understand it’s truly the answer for many. I just think it’s more case by case rather than “you did this - there’s no hope - divorce!” That’s how it was looking as a pattern to me. I enjoy these discussions though to get a better idea of everyone’s thoughts & where you’re coming from.

Addictions & infidelity can still be worked through to make it to the other side. To each their own but, rushing to tell someone else they must divorce without truly knowing the person(s) involved or their background is pretty heavy.
Then, you go on to say:

Abuse - sure. Nobody should live in fear of their life, if that’s the case.
I find it odd that you believe one and not the other, until the other side is heard.

Disrespect - that can depend what one’s definition of disrespect is... ex:
-Husband A considers his wife disrespectful bc she put him on blast in front of a group of their friends.
-Husband B considers his wife disrespectful bc she spent time with a long time girl friend he dislikes or disapproves of.

As far as these cases go with disrespect, I’d agree Husband A has a right to be upset & repeated “disrespect” like this would be an issue. However, I would disagree that Husband B has a right to be upset or choose his wife’s friends. That’s not grounds for divorce, although he may twist that into “disrespect” based on his own “rules”. Husband B isn’t disrespected, he’s just manipulative.
Most times, being there is "No Fault" divorce, there doesn't have to be any issue, just a desire not to be married any longer.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
FIRST... what’s “an EQ problem”?? 🤔

Im not “shaming” anyone. I was only making an observation of what it looked like from a newbie POV. That’s what was standing out to me. I’m only trying to get a better understanding of why some think the way they do - why suggest divorce so quick rather than help someone walk through fighting for their marriage?! Not judging, just trying to understand. I think this is largely in part bc I have been in that fight & had a few on my team supporting us through it instead of suggesting we give up.


It's rather interesting when a new person registers, and the first thread they start is basically to shame all the other members for their advice.

Methinks there's an EQ problem here....
 

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@HowBoutThemApples, welcome to TAM!

Many people have experienced adultery or other abuse here, and they see the futility of remaining in a marriage with an unrepentant cheater.

Even if a spouse stops cheating, reconciliation is a very arduous process, fraught by many ups and downs.

You are right, the call to "divorce!," with torches raised, is very prevalent. But not all will respond that way. Just the ones with the most time on their hands and loudest keyboards.
@sokillme doesn't think reconciliation is worth it.

I do. Especially when children are involved, or the marriage was already a long one by the time the adultery occurred. I am reconciled with a spouse who cheated 9 years ago. I'm glad I reconciled. Our oldest son recently told us that he is glad we stayed together. That was a wonderful confirmation to us that we did the right thing, even though it has been a long haul.

Regarding posters who are hostile to you, stalk you, or otherwise attempt to draw you into a fight by insulting you: you can use a feature in your user control panel to ignore them. It doesn't make them go away if someone quotes them, but it reduces the annoyance.
 

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@HowBoutThemApples, welcome to TAM!

Many people have experienced adultery or other abuse here, and they see the futility of remaining in a marriage with an unrepentant cheater.

Even if a spouse stops cheating, reconciliation is a very arduous process, fraught by many ups and downs.

You are right, the call to "divorce!," with torches raised, is very prevalent. But not all will respond that way. Just the ones with the most time on their hands and loudest keyboards.

@sokillme doesn't think reconciliation is worth it.

I do. Especially when children are involved, or the marriage was already a long one by the time the adultery occurred. I am reconciled with a spouse who cheated 9 years ago. I'm glad I reconciled. Our oldest son recently told us that he is glad we stayed together. That was a wonderful confirmation to us that we did the right thing, even though it has been a long haul.

Regarding posters who are hostile to you, stalk you, or otherwise attempt to draw you into a fight by insulting you: you can use a feature in your user control panel to ignore them. It doesn't make them go away if someone quotes them, but it reduces the annoyance.
Your not wrong, but you have to understand from my point of view my parents divorced though and it actually brought me closer to my Father. I was already close with my Mom. I cherish the times I spend with him when he was single. I am probably closer to him then my other friends are with their Dads still to this day. I grew up alright, any damage the divorce did me would probably be no worse them them staying together.

For instance I have a friend whose wife is not affectionate at all. Turns out her parents got divorce a few years after he married her. As the cliche goes her parents basically stayed in a dead marriage for years for the kids. Problem is the marriage that was modeled for her was one where there was no affection and hence she doesn't see that as a necessary part of her marriage. As far as I can tell from what he tells me they have a very business like marriage where the are good friends and get along well, but he craves physical intimacy and not just sex which she is willing to have out of duty. She doesn't know any better and he is really not happy.

My point is staying together for the kids doesn't necessarily mean they are going to turn out better especially if it's a dead marriage or worse if there is ongoing abuse.

As I have said before there are folks who give advice whose primary concern is saving the OP marriage, and folks who give advice whose primary concern is saving the OP's life. I will leave it up to the poster who has their best interest at heart.

By the way I am mostly big on divorce when there is infidelity, abuse or long term dead bedrooms. All marriages have problems and the grass is not always greener.

Then again marriage for marriage sake is a trap. All things in life end. Good marriage and bad.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
@Araucaria & @sokillme
Thank you both for your replies.

Yes, adultery has occurred in my marriage as well. We have both made poor choices but, we always chose each other in the end. Our poor choices don’t mean we don’t love each other, just that we are human & maybe that is a weakness?! I don’t know. We have a lot of years together/married & we have kids. By most accounts, we have a happy home & a great relationship. We take turns on the hi-low teeter totter but we always level out again. There’s never been any abuse of any kind (physical, mental, verbal, drugs or alcohol). We don’t fight & we don’t even argue a lot. Honestly, the biggest issue we have had is our sex life.
 

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I do see a difference between a bully (kids) vs a spouse - you have not made a promise or commitment to the bully.

However, I do understand several points madenin the replies. I don’t know how to quote her to show what I’m replying to though.

Even if someone does have a pattern of less than perfect behavior/character, I think some could still be worth fighting for. Everyone has flaws, nobody is perfect. I think if we love someone, we will fight to make things work - until “we” reach our own limit of it no longer being worth the effort.

My SO & I have had a rocky marriage. We’ve had many ups & downs. We are like a teeter totter at times where one isnup & the other is down then we switch. We have both been at points of ready to call it quits, more than once. In the end, we always stay (never went through with separation). We almost never “fight” & our disagreements are minor compared to what we’ve witnessed among friends over the years. Aside from our “character flaws”, we really do have a great relationship.

Honestly, we’ve always been the couple envied by most of our family & many of our friends (those who don’t know of our “flaws”). That is mostly due to our keeping those flaws mostly private & not broadcasting our every problem to everyone we know or on social media.

I am sure, based on what I’ve been reading among the posts in this site, that we would have been told to divorce... not trying to be harsh of other posters, just the pattern I see, & I understand that may truly be necessary for many.
I think you have been very quick to judge posters on this forum. I for one am still with my cheating/ recovering Alcoholic husband, I got great advice here, it was still my decision to go or stay, no one else makes that decision. Of course, people who come here have usually been cheated on or abused in some way and readers ought to know that colours some of the responses, rightly so.

And NO, not everyone is worth fighting for, as you put it, some people should be kicked to the kerb when they have had plenty of opportunities to make right what they have done, i.e. lying, cheating, drinking, etc. No one should ever be a doormat for anyone, all too often 'righteou's people like you make poor abused spouses stay on longer in relationships than they should have with their 'better or worse' mantra.

As for your own relationship and your enthusiasm about it, good for you though I sense 'the lady doth protest too much' and if your relationship is so wonderful how on earth could you ever begin 'to walk a mile in the shoes' of those who find themselves in the situations they do on TAM.

Finally, I do not see on what premise you base your conclusion that you would have been told to divorce. Noone on TAM tells people in relationships

who to quote you "almost never “fight” & our disagreements are minor" and are the envy of your family. Really, you ought to be less judgemental and realise that you are talking about chalk and cheese. :scratchhead:

Nevertheless, if you can take constructive critique, I welcome you to TAM:grin2::laugh:
 

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@Araucaria & @sokillme
Thank you both for your replies.

Yes, adultery has occurred in my marriage as well. We have both made poor choices but, we always chose each other in the end. Our poor choices don’t mean we don’t love each other, just that we are human & maybe that is a weakness?! I don’t know. We have a lot of years together/married & we have kids. By most accounts, we have a happy home & a great relationship. We take turns on the hi-low teeter totter but we always level out again. There’s never been any abuse of any kind (physical, mental, verbal, drugs or alcohol). We don’t fight & we don’t even argue a lot. Honestly, the biggest issue we have had is our sex life.
First off adultery is probably one of the worst forms of abuse you can commit against a person so not sure how you can argue there was never any abuse in your marriage.

Anyway from my own perspective love would not necessarily be good reason to stay in a marriage per say, though I always seems to be listed as the primary reason people say even in the worst marriages. I have no doubt for instance that women whose husband's repeatedly physically abuse them also stay in their marriages because they love those husband. In their own twisted way the abusive husband probably feels he loves his wife too. Who cares, I don't think anyone would argue those marriages should continue because of love.

Besides that most people have the potential to love any number of others. It's not really that rare unlike what the songs say. What is rare is character.

Once one of the those types of things I listed in my last post happen I would counsel that the most important factor you should use to decide whether to stay or go would be quality of life. That would include your kids' lives as well, your financial situation. In the end that would be what I would decide on. I know I can love again so love wouldn't be a big factor.

Now I haven't even gotten into the fact of whether it's good for society that dead marriage's or marriages where one partner has been terribly abusive (this includes long term adultery) to the other continue after that. Hint - it's not.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Did you even read my comment or just skim through?? You’re judging ME while accusing me of judging (not the case at all).

You “quoted” me as saying “everyone is worth fighting for” when that is NOT what I said!! My exact words were “I THINK SOME COULD STILL BE WORTH FIGHTING FOR”. I also said I think “if we love each other, we will fight for each other until “we” reach our own limits”. How are you getting so much of what I said twisted?!

If you had kept reading & caught my most recent reply before yours, you’d see what basis. Just bc I didn’t divulge details right away didn’t mean D wouldn’t be suggested at some point. Some of the few close to us who know our backstory have been surprised we have survived all these years. Our MC didn’t know if we would survive either... that was back in 2010.

And I’m “all too righteous”?? Give me a break!! You have proven you don’t read or pay attention to what you read before responding or quoting. I am far from judgmental or righteous.

Here’s some “constructive critique” for yourself... if you intend to quote others & respond so harshly, at least be sure you’ve actually read what you’re quoting & are quoting them correctly!



I do see a difference between a bully (kids) vs a spouse - you have not made a promise or commitment to the bully.

However, I do understand several points madenin the replies. I don’t know how to quote her to show what I’m replying to though.

Even if someone does have a pattern of less than perfect behavior/character, I think some could still be worth fighting for. Everyone has flaws, nobody is perfect. I think if we love someone, we will fight to make things work - until “we” reach our own limit of it no longer being worth the effort.

My SO & I have had a rocky marriage. We’ve had many ups & downs. We are like a teeter totter at times where one isnup & the other is down then we switch. We have both been at points of ready to call it quits, more than once. In the end, we always stay (never went through with separation). We almost never “fight” & our disagreements are minor compared to what we’ve witnessed among friends over the years. Aside from our “character flaws”, we really do have a great relationship.

Honestly, we’ve always been the couple envied by most of our family & many of our friends (those who don’t know of our “flaws”). That is mostly due to our keeping those flaws mostly private & not broadcasting our every problem to everyone we know or on social media.

I am sure, based on what I’ve been reading among the posts in this site, that we would have been told to divorce... not trying to be harsh of other posters, just the pattern I see, & I understand that may truly be necessary for many.
I think you have been very quick to judge posters on this forum. I for one am still with my cheating/ recovering Alcoholic husband, I got great advice here, it was still my decision to go or stay, no one else makes that decision. Of course, people who come here have usually been cheated on or abused in some way and readers ought to know that colours some of the responses, rightly so.

And NO, not everyone is worth fighting for, as you put it, some people should be kicked to the kerb when they have had plenty of opportunities to make right what they have done, i.e. lying, cheating, drinking, etc. No one should ever be a doormat for anyone, all too often 'righteou's people like you make poor abused spouses stay on longer in relationships than they should have with their 'better or worse' mantra.

As for your own relationship and your enthusiasm about it, good for you though I sense 'the lady doth protest too much' and if your relationship is so wonderful how on earth could you ever begin 'to walk a mile in the shoes' of those who find themselves in the situations they do on TAM.

Finally, I do not see on what premise you base your conclusion that you would have been told to divorce. Noone on TAM tells people in relationships

who to quote you "almost never “fight” & our disagreements are minor" and are the envy of your family. Really, you ought to be less judgemental and realise that you are talking about chalk and cheese. <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/scratchhead.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Scratchhead" >:)</a>

Nevertheless, if you can take constructive critique, I welcome you to TAM<a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_grin.png" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" >:)</a><a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_smile_big.png" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh" >:)</a>
 

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Discussion Starter #34
@Araucaria & @sokillme
Thank you both for your replies.

Yes, adultery has occurred in my marriage as well. We have both made poor choices but, we always chose each other in the end. Our poor choices don’t mean we don’t love each other, just that we are human & maybe that is a weakness?! I don’t know. We have a lot of years together/married & we have kids. By most accounts, we have a happy home & a great relationship. We take turns on the hi-low teeter totter but we always level out again. There’s never been any abuse of any kind (physical, mental, verbal, drugs or alcohol). We don’t fight & we don’t even argue a lot. Honestly, the biggest issue we have had is our sex life.
First off adultery is probably one of the worst forms of abuse you can commit against a person so not sure how you can argue there was never any abuse in your marriage.
I disagree that adultery is the worst of abuses. We can agree to disagree tho & that’s ok. I just think mental & physical abuse is worse, although adultery can be a form of mental abuse at times (case by case). Personally I could forgive adultery easier than physical abuse. No the memory doesn’t go away but it is forgiven
 

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I disagree that adultery is the worst of abuses. We can agree to disagree tho & that’s ok. I just think mental & physical abuse is worse, although adultery can be a form of mental abuse at times (case by case). Personally I could forgive adultery easier than physical abuse. No the memory doesn’t go away but it is forgiven
It is obvious from your posts that you have been cheated on.
I would also wager that you are a man who’s wife cheated or is cheating on him.
You are dropping hints here and there but can I ask you some questions?
Why did you come onto a relationship forum and immediately start protesting about the amount of times divorce is suggested to betrayed spouses when their partners are or were cheating?
Are you in a situation where divorce has been advised,even recommended by your counselor,but you are looking for alternative advice from anonymous internet posters to validate your decision to stick with your marriage?
I’m not trying to dissect your life but if you want an open discussion then it helps if you’re open yourself.
Or in less salubrious terms either **** or get off the pot.
 

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Yes, when I first started reading on here, I was also shocked by the divorce responses from some of the posters.

Not all, as I've learnt a lot from some very wise people on here.

But there did seem to be an air of bitterness permeating some responses. We only ever have the posters side of the story. (It got interesting when we heard the other side of a couple recently though).

I think it's a given that if you come on here regarding infidelity in your marriage, the majority of responders will advice divorce. That will be due to their own experiences with it, and they don't want you making the same mistakes they did, or wasting time trying to reconcile if they feel there is no hope for the poster.
Those that have experience with reconciling seem to be thin on the ground here, or don't use this site or comment much.

I am in a long term marriage that has been through some problems, but we have got through them.
I feel if either myself or my husband had posted about them on here, there would have been some divorce comments. But there would have been some good advice as well.
 

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Not trying to be defensive. I was only making an observation of what I was seeing to be so common. I totally understand many truly are better off & I’m not saying divorce shouldn’t be suggested. I know a few who should have never married & should get divorced themselves. I know some who 1 or the other has cheated & they reconciled. I know some who both have cheated & they reconciled. Then I know others who went straight for divorce. I get it’s different for each couple. I’m just new here & still learning my way around how the minds of the seasoned work.
I cannot help but notice you did not actually answer my question.
 

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"Fighting for your marriage" should come from the Wayward, not the BS. The Wayward should be snot nosed crying, begging, pleading, and determined to do the hard work to "win" their marriage back from the pit of hell that they threw it into, not the betrayed spouse. They are the abused party. Otherwise it reeks of the "Pick Me Dance" and makes the BS look to be pathetic. Strength, Courage, and Decisive actions by the BS are the ONLY things that can possibly save a marriage, and often that is not enough.
 

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"Fighting for your marriage" should come from the Wayward, not the BS. The Wayward should be snot nosed crying, begging, pleading, and determined to do the hard work to "win" their marriage back from the pit of hell that they threw it into, not the betrayed spouse. They are the abused party. Otherwise it reeks of the "Pick Me Dance" and makes the BS look to be pathetic. Strength, Courage, and Decisive actions by the BS are the ONLY things that can possibly save a marriage, and often that is not enough.
Exactly. The idea that any wayward would chide a betrayed spouse for not fighting for the marriage is disgusting.
 
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