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Discussion Starter #1
I’ve been reading lots of posts & replies. It seems very common for some to quickly judge & insist the poster rush to divorce. What happened to fighting through “the good & the bad times”?? Even if 1 spouse wrongs the other, why is that automatic DIVORCE?? This mentality is a big part of why our divorce rate is so dang high. 😢

If you love them, fight for them - regardless of who wronged who.

Signed...
Still fighting for each other
 

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One must first differentiate between disagreement and character flaw.

If a couple disagrees on which end of the toothpaste tube to squeeze or whether the toilet seat should be left up or down, those things are worth discussion and finding mutual agreement and solution etc.

However things like abuse, addiction, cruelty, infidelity, abject disrespect etc are character flaws and part of someone's being.


You can "fight" for the marriage but in the end you are fighting for a turd.

Many of us were raised to believe that divorce is bad or wrong.

But as we've lived and learned and seen the world for what it is and have seen what people do it to each other in this world, many of us now realize that divorce is often the saving grace and is often the way out of bondage and towards a better life free of those that would harm us.

Some conflicts between good people are worth working out.

Other things require getting away from a bad person that is toxic to us and causing harm and destruction in our lives.

Wisdom is knowing the difference.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Addictions & infidelity can still be worked through to make it to the other side. To each their own but, rushing to tell someone else they must divorce without truly knowing the person(s) involved or their background is pretty heavy.

Abuse - sure. Nobody should live in fear of their life, if that’s the case.

Disrespect - that can depend what one’s definition of disrespect is... ex:
-Husband A considers his wife disrespectful bc she put him on blast in front of a group of their friends.
-Husband B considers his wife disrespectful bc she spent time with a long time girl friend he dislikes or disapproves of.

As far as these cases go with disrespect, I’d agree Husband A has a right to be upset & repeated “disrespect” like this would be an issue. However, I would disagree that Husband B has a right to be upset or choose his wife’s friends. That’s not grounds for divorce, although he may twist that into “disrespect” based on his own “rules”. Husband B isn’t disrespected, he’s just manipulative.
 

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Addiction and Infidelity can both be worked out if and only if there is remorse, there is corrective actions, corrective behavior, and acknowledgement of transgression and/or addictions....because anything short of that should be a none starter. there are a number of stories on here where the betrayed spouse wanted to keep the marriage together and we have supported them only if the above requirements have been addressed. I think your trying to generalize something that is not worthy of generalization, every marriage is different. Socrates would have had a field day with you.
 

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I think that you say there is a push for divorce here may be correct, but I think that is due to the POSTS that make it to these forums. By the time folks make it here to post, there are some significant issues going on in the marriage and many of the long-timers here have seen this OVER AND OVER again. There def are patterns to the behaviors, and they have been worked over many many times. Many of these, the solution IS divorce. There are also a bunch where working through the issue is encouraged (until the time when it really gets hopeless or futile).
 

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I’ve been reading lots of posts & replies. It seems very common for some to quickly judge & insist the poster rush to divorce. What happened to fighting through “the good & the bad times”?? Even if 1 spouse wrongs the other, why is that automatic DIVORCE?? This mentality is a big part of why our divorce rate is so dang high. 😢

If you love them, fight for them - regardless of who wronged who.

Signed...
Still fighting for each other
I'm all for fighting for each other until their is abuse at that point it's time to move on in my mind.

Like @jlg07 says by the time most people post on here their is horrible abuse. Other times when there is not I often suggest marriage counseling.
 

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Addictions & infidelity can still be worked through to make it to the other side. To each their own but, rushing to tell someone else they must divorce without truly knowing the person(s) involved or their background is pretty heavy.

Abuse - sure. Nobody should live in fear of their life, if that’s the case.

Disrespect - that can depend what one’s definition of disrespect is... ex:
-Husband A considers his wife disrespectful bc she put him on blast in front of a group of their friends.
-Husband B considers his wife disrespectful bc she spent time with a long time girl friend he dislikes or disapproves of.

As far as these cases go with disrespect, I’d agree Husband A has a right to be upset & repeated “disrespect” like this would be an issue. However, I would disagree that Husband B has a right to be upset or choose his wife’s friends. That’s not grounds for divorce, although he may twist that into “disrespect” based on his own “rules”. Husband B isn’t disrespected, he’s just manipulative.
I think you are jumping to conclusions too much if you are thinking that anyone is saying that people "must" divorce. I think you are the one being a little too harsh on the posters here.

While I agree that each individual marriage should be considered on it's own merits, I do believe that these things should be looked at against the backdrop of the big picture and viewed from the context of general character.

I do not think that infidelity or abuse or addiction etc occur in a vacuum or that there are all that many "isolated incidents" of those things occurring. Often there is a longstanding history of bad behavior and entitlement and selfishness.

Often abusing behavior, chemical/alcohol abuse and even emotional and physical abuse are all rolled into one.

Rarely is someone a fine, upstanding citizen and loving and faithful spouse for 30 years and then just goes out and cheats one day. It is usually a pattern and usually a process.

Many times the BS only knows the tiny tip of iceberg.

Many of these things are character and bad behavior issues of the perpetuator and not a relationship issue. As it is not a relationship issue, it is not something that can readily be "worked out" as a couple.

Can an individual change their behavior and exercise control over themselves?? Yes, of course and some ultimately do. But it takes great effort and commitment and the recidivism rate is very high.

Again, is it a disagreement between two good people who are both committed to finding a mutually beneficial solution and both are committed to putting in the heavy lifting?

Or are the issues due to bad behavior and bad character of one or even both individuals?

If someone is bullying and picking on and mistreating my kids, I do not tell my kids to go into counseling with them and talk about the reasons and rationale behind the mistreatment - I tell them to get away from their tormentors and not associate with them and to cut them out of their lives. …..and even to kick their @$$ and defend themselves if they have to.

I see no difference here. If someone is mistreating someone and inflicting pain and torment upon them - my advice is to defend themselves accordingly and get away from them.

I do not negotiate with tyrants or terrorists.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I do see a difference between a bully (kids) vs a spouse - you have not made a promise or commitment to the bully.

However, I do understand several points madenin the replies. I don’t know how to quote her to show what I’m replying to though.

Even if someone does have a pattern of less than perfect behavior/character, I think some could still be worth fighting for. Everyone has flaws, nobody is perfect. I think if we love someone, we will fight to make things work - until “we” reach our own limit of it no longer being worth the effort.

My SO & I have had a rocky marriage. We’ve had many ups & downs. We are like a teeter totter at times where one isnup & the other is down then we switch. We have both been at points of ready to call it quits, more than once. In the end, we always stay (never went through with separation). We almost never “fight” & our disagreements are minor compared to what we’ve witnessed among friends over the years. Aside from our “character flaws”, we really do have a great relationship.

Honestly, we’ve always been the couple envied by most of our family & many of our friends (those who don’t know of our “flaws”). That is mostly due to our keeping those flaws mostly private & not broadcasting our every problem to everyone we know or on social media.

I am sure, based on what I’ve been reading among the posts in this site, that we would have been told to divorce... not trying to be harsh of other posters, just the pattern I see, & I understand that may truly be necessary for many.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
DavidDarling... exactly!! I’m glad I’m not the only one to notice that. I know I’m not just being harsh or over exaggerating either.
 

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I do see a difference between a bully (kids) vs a spouse - you have not made a promise or commitment to the bully.

However, I do understand several points madenin the replies. I don’t know how to quote her to show what I’m replying to though.

Even if someone does have a pattern of less than perfect behavior/character, I think some could still be worth fighting for. Everyone has flaws, nobody is perfect. I think if we love someone, we will fight to make things work - until “we” reach our own limit of it no longer being worth the effort.

My SO & I have had a rocky marriage. We’ve had many ups & downs. We are like a teeter totter at times where one isnup & the other is down then we switch. We have both been at points of ready to call it quits, more than once. In the end, we always stay (never went through with separation). We almost never “fight” & our disagreements are minor compared to what we’ve witnessed among friends over the years. Aside from our “character flaws”, we really do have a great relationship.

Honestly, we’ve always been the couple envied by most of our family & many of our friends (those who don’t know of our “flaws”). That is mostly due to our keeping those flaws mostly private & not broadcasting our every problem to everyone we know or on social media.

I am sure, based on what I’ve been reading among the posts in this site, that we would have been told to divorce... not trying to be harsh of other posters, just the pattern I see, & I understand that may truly be necessary for many.
As a relative newcomer my first impression was exactly the same as the OP - I was surprised how quickly divorce is suggested - sometimes in the first response.
Well, @HowBoutThemApples you make a lot of generalizations. So, if you are male or female, don't know which, so you sound like a man that had his wife cheat on him an took her back, for what, because she is "Sorry"?

Or, if you are a women, and your husband cheated on you, and you took him back? Why, because he was having a bad day? He just met her and could not control himself?

Or what, no infidelity, then what form of abuse, emotional, physical, low sex / no sex.

No one here usually wants people to divorce for no reason, but what we see as reality, what we have been through, what our friends have been through, there are ways that things work and ways that they don't.

A man or woman that catches their spouse cheating and tries to "Nice" them back is a fool. Not only does it not work, it is weak. The cheating spouse in those cases almost always cheats again, and even if they don't the marriage is usually a shadow of what it used to be. The betrayed spouse is almost always the one in the relationship that settles, and their spouse never has respect for them again.

Those case we advise strength, and usually divorce.

Then there are cases where, whatever the behavior, where only ONE member is actively working to improve the relationship. Well, that just never works, so yeah, most of the time we recommend divorce. We know how it will work out for the spouse that is doing all the work and wondering why it is not helping.

But tell us your story, maybe you have a different view...
 

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OP, I have to ask… when did you cheat on your spouse? And if not in Fidelity, what pattern of behavior or act is it that you have committed that you think we would recommend divorce 4? Rarely is anyone this defensive and less they are the one who has the flaw that usually creates the suggestion for divorce.
 

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Dr. Phil tells the story that he met a couple who was celebrating 50 years together, and he asked them what was there secret to being married so long. The wife spoke and said that life together was not always easy and there were times when i fell out of love with him but he had enough love for me that made me stay and there was times he was out of love for me, and during those times i had enough love for him that he stayed, but we were never out of love for each other at the same time.

and maybe that is the secret to a lasting marriage.
 

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I’ve been reading lots of posts & replies. It seems very common for some to quickly judge & insist the poster rush to divorce. What happened to fighting through “the good & the bad times”?? Even if 1 spouse wrongs the other, why is that automatic DIVORCE?? This mentality is a big part of why our divorce rate is so dang high. 😢

If you love them, fight for them - regardless of who wronged who.

Signed...
Still fighting for each other
For more common things like psychological control issues, physical and mental illness, family responsibilities, alcohol and drug addiction, et. al., I firmly believe as you do! I will try my best to fight for them, knowing that while there may be an element of hope, there are no firm guarantees!

But with due regard to wanton, deceptive infidelity and marital cheating, and with extremely rare exception, I cannot!
 

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"Honestly, we’ve always been the couple envied by most of our family & many of our friends (those who don’t know of our “flaws”). That is mostly due to our keeping those flaws mostly private & not broadcasting our every problem to everyone we know or on social media. "

My wife and I are the same, and our friends say that "well YOU two are just perfect -- you never have problems". I tell them just because YOU don't see that we argue and have problems doesn't mean we don't. We just work through them together without advertising to the whole world.

One thing I think you are missing in these is the context where folks say to divorce.
For the MOST part it isn't, my H won't put the toilet seat down, he is so inconsiderate type of stuff.
LOTS of the D suggestions are due to REALLY crazy abusive/manipulative interactions or infidelity (and any infidelity will almost ALWAYS have get divorced in the opinions due to the fact that a lot folks here have lived through it and that's how they filter the issue).

One thing you WILL find here -- VERY harsh/severe responses, especially where cheating is involved. MANY of those are to force the poster to thing and/or get angry because they are in a fog and not able to process things normally. Yes, I find especially early on in these posts, that they are sometimes WAY too harsh and can actually push people away, but for the most part they are done to give them a 2x4 rather than out of being mean.
 

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I’ve been reading lots of posts & replies. It seems very common for some to quickly judge & insist the poster rush to divorce. What happened to fighting through “the good & the bad times”?? Even if 1 spouse wrongs the other, why is that automatic DIVORCE?? This mentality is a big part of why our divorce rate is so dang high. 😢

If you love them, fight for them - regardless of who wronged who.

Signed...
Still fighting for each other
Marriages happening between two people who never had any business marrying each other is why our divorce rate is so dang high.

I do see a difference between a bully (kids) vs a spouse - you have not made a promise or commitment to the bully.

However, I do understand several points madenin the replies. I don’t know how to quote her to show what I’m replying to though.

Even if someone does have a pattern of less than perfect behavior/character, I think some could still be worth fighting for. Everyone has flaws, nobody is perfect. I think if we love someone, we will fight to make things work - until “we” reach our own limit of it no longer being worth the effort.

My SO & I have had a rocky marriage. We’ve had many ups & downs. We are like a teeter totter at times where one isnup & the other is down then we switch. We have both been at points of ready to call it quits, more than once. In the end, we always stay (never went through with separation). We almost never “fight” & our disagreements are minor compared to what we’ve witnessed among friends over the years. Aside from our “character flaws”, we really do have a great relationship.

Honestly, we’ve always been the couple envied by most of our family & many of our friends (those who don’t know of our “flaws”). That is mostly due to our keeping those flaws mostly private & not broadcasting our every problem to everyone we know or on social media.

I am sure, based on what I’ve been reading among the posts in this site, that we would have been told to divorce... not trying to be harsh of other posters, just the pattern I see, & I understand that may truly be necessary for many.
Absolutely, and for myself, I know with certainty that infidelity or anything else that breaks my trust, will cause me to no longer be in love the person I am with, thus I will divorce them. Case in point, my ex-wife. And I do not feel one bit bad or guilty about it.
 

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The issue that you are failing to see is most of us here want people to be in healthy and happy relationships. If they aren't they can either choose to fight for it or call it quits, and there isn't a universal response. The people that already have a healthy self-esteem and boundaries don't need anyone here giving them advice, but the posters that are out of their element need to decide for themselves if the person they are thinking about fighting for is healthy relationship material or will take them for a long unhappy ride.

My POV is that I am an emotionally healthy and giving man and expect an emotionally healthy and giving partner in return, and that is not negotiable. I also recognize that the time I have on this earth is limited and I do not believe in wasting it on people that aren't worthy of it, and that is also not negotiable. I advocate for other people to make decisions that they are proud of, whether that is staying in a relationship or recognizing when it is time to end one really is immaterial as long as the person is doing what is right for them. Most of the major problems that people come on this board to ask advice for really should be handled with divorce because the odds of fixing a major character flaw in a partner that has no desire to change is infinitesimally low.

As far as your comment about loving someone, you have a naïve POV. At a certain age and experience you'll realize that love is not unconditional except in very limited situations (e.g. between parents and their children) and for everyone else it is conditional. That means love for a person can fade or disappear given certain situations like abuse and infidelity...so then what is the point of fighting for those people?? A healthier outlook is choosing to only be with someone that wants to be with you and is committed towards it, and to get rid of those that don't fit that paradigm.
 

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These are your boundaries. Just as everyone else is free to have their own boundaries.
Addictions & infidelity can still be worked through to make it to the other side. To each their own but, rushing to tell someone else they must divorce without truly knowing the person(s) involved or their background is pretty heavy.

Abuse - sure. Nobody should live in fear of their life, if that’s the case.

Disrespect - that can depend what one’s definition of disrespect is... ex:
-Husband A considers his wife disrespectful bc she put him on blast in front of a group of their friends.
-Husband B considers his wife disrespectful bc she spent time with a long time girl friend he dislikes or disapproves of.

As far as these cases go with disrespect, I’d agree Husband A has a right to be upset & repeated “disrespect” like this would be an issue. However, I would disagree that Husband B has a right to be upset or choose his wife’s friends. That’s not grounds for divorce, although he may twist that into “disrespect” based on his own “rules”. Husband B isn’t disrespected, he’s just manipulative.
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