[sigma1299]

I always called it having my head up my a@@ when I was in my affair and post D Day until I found this site - "The Fog" sounds so much nicer. Having been through it, I'll say it was very real, at least for me.

 

[pidge70]

I suspect that's true. However, there's a pretty common script for what people do in ALL relationships, not just affairs. People tend to interact in similar ways... after all, we're all human and tend to relate to each other in a typical fashion.

Well, this is why I called it pseudoscience. I read your OP, as well as a few other articles on the topic. Here's my take on it and why I disagree with the whole notion of an "affair fog".

We would agree that there's a chemical reaction that takes place in the brain when we fall in love. However, this chemical reaction (the release of dopamine, etc.), in and of itself, is not unique to infidelity, it's a reaction to love. So, the implication that this reaction is specifically tied to affairs, is misleading. Let's keep in mind, people in love constantly make bad decisions, cut friends out of their life, etc.

Second, you said, "...in affair situations your mind IS ON DRUGS". That's a grand overstatement. If this was true, people in love would not be allowed to drive a car or operate heavy machinery.

Third, you tie in Freud's theories, in order to lend this "theory" some gravitas. However, let's not forget, Freud was a neurologist from the early 1900s. Most of his theories have been debunked by modern science. Basing a modern day theory on what Freud knew and understood about the way the mind works, would be like building a modern day war plane based on what the Wright brothers understood about flight.

Ultimately, this whole concept is based on the idea that the chemical response is unique to an affair (it isn't), the overstated idea that your brain is on drugs (it isn't really), and cementing it all with an early 19th century neurologist's understanding of brain function (probably not a good idea).

^^^^I agree with all of this.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[SoWhatNow]

OK, then how do you explain the apparent lack of so many people in affairs to be able to see reality? I'm not getting into the technical stuff of a mind. But the "fog" seems to explain a lot of how my wife acted. It seems to be a common thing on here with many threads. They get so wrapped up in the affair, that nothing else in their life really matters.

I won't pretend to know the answers to this. I just don't think the theory being suggested makes sense, for the reasons I listed.

That said, why even bother to distinguish people in affairs from people in new relationships? How many times has someone you know started ignoring their friends because they were so into the new person in their life? How many women do you know who exclusively date men who are jerks? How many men do you know who end up whipped? People in love do dumb things. It's the nature of the beast. An affair becomes an affair because the people involved have fallen for one another. I'm not sure it's really any more complicated than that.

Again, just my two cents.

 

[joe kidd]

OK, then how do you explain the apparent lack of so many people in affairs to be able to see reality? I'm not getting into the technical stuff of a mind. But the "fog" seems to explain a lot of how my wife acted. It seems to be a common thing on here with many threads. They get so wrapped up in the affair, that nothing else in their life really matters. I've had different counsellors compare it to a crack cocaine addiction.

Well Hurt my SO told me she wasn't in a fog. She said that she was a selfish horrible b*tch who was thinking of no one but herself.

 

[Pit-of-my-stomach]

Well, this is why I called it pseudoscience.

I'm happy to discuss this with you at length. I hope to be able to find time to address anything you want to discuss. I'm not a scientist or psychologist, I'm not writing a paper and don't have professional capitol tied to being right or wrong about this. I'd just assume none of this ever happened to me and I never felt compelled to find answers to these questions which have haunted my life.

Have you been or are you involved in an extra maritial realtionship? or has your significant other been involved in one and that is what is driving your interest in the subject?

If you want to have an intelligent open minded conversation about these things, I would love to engage with you. Obviously, I have an interest. You've taken a decidedly aggresive approach to objecting to the facts and opinions I've offered. That is obviously fine, even good if your coming from the 'right' place.

It would help for me to understand what angle your coming from. I'm not interesting in trying to change your mind or force anything down your throat if your determined to disagree. In that case your going to bounce around and find a "weak spot" to exploit. Your going to believe what you want or need too.

Start with...

The comment about "drugs" being a grand overstatement. If anything it's an understatement. The example you use about someone not being allowed to drive is absurd. I think you know that but you use that example to hit home a point your trying to make. Fine, nice showmanship.

I think that the last stat I saw said that over 10% of the population is on anti-depressants, and in general up to 50% of the population is on some type of perscription medication at any given time. This says nothing about over the counter drugs which could increase the numbers over 75%. So 3 out of 4 people in the US are on "drugs" at any given time. Depending on the drug, the effects on the individual vary widely. Most drive.

Dopamine along with the other chemicals that are naturally released by your brain are drugs. Dopamine's power is amazing. Some perscription drugs and most addictive "street drugs" produce or stimulate the production of high levels of dopamine in the brain. This production of dopamine IS what people are addicted to. Addictive drugs flood the brain with dopamine and condition us to expect artificially high levels of the neurotransmitter. Over time, the user's brain requires more dopamine than it can naturally produce, and it becomes dependent on the drug.

The drug is just the vehicle for it's production. Affairs are also a vehicle for the production of massive amounts of dopamine. It's addictive properties don't change based on what is delivering it.

Ultimately, this whole concept is based on the idea that the chemical response is unique to an affair (it isn't)

Dopamine production or it's addiction is not unique to affairs, that's rediculous. None of these things are unique to affairs, they are simply present in them. We are on an infidelity forum, we are discussing affairs and infidelity. Dopamine production and it's effects are very much present in affairs, That was the reason for this discussion here.

 

[HurtinginTN]

That said, why even bother to distinguish people in affairs from people in new relationships? How many times has someone you know started ignoring their friends because they were so into the new person in their life? How many women do you know who exclusively date men who are jerks? How many men do you know who end up whipped? People in love do dumb things. It's the nature of the beast. An affair becomes an affair because the people involved have fallen for one another. I'm not sure it's really any more complicated than that.

That is very interesting. You make a good point. The addiction is not so much the affair, as it is the new relationship. Actually, they are one and the same. The new relationship IS the affair. The difference is that the new relationship would be fine if both parties were single. In an affair, one or both parties are supposedly involved in a committed relationship with another person. Instead of first ending that committed relationship, the affair partners have chosen to explore this new relationship first. That is where the dopamine comes in, I believe.

The dopamine was not what started the affair. The cheating spouse walked down that slippery slope on their own. The dopamine simply makes the affair more appealing once it is in progress. It does become an addiction, in my opinion, making it very hard to stop. Not all affairs, though. A one-night stand wouldn't produce this. A deep emotional affair definitely does.

The purpose of this forum is to help people "Cope with Infidelity". Pit has been through hell with his cheating wife. In searching for answers, he found this stuff. It does show the powerful draw of an affair, but like you point out, that is how any new relationship would start.

I guess this lends more credibility to the "Just let them go" thread. This new relationship the cheating spouse has decided to pursue blinds them to all negative aspects. As the 180 states, no amount of begging, pleading, reasoning, etc. will work. Only bringing the new relationship from fantasy into reality has the possibility of killing it.

 

[EmeraldEyez]

I started to read this thread thinking it would be one of those, "boy, can I relate"...but sadly...I don't find myself having "the luxury" (I'll explain that crazy choice of words ) there was no "fog"..."dopamine-induced" "search for happiness" in my WH choices. There wasn't any, "oh, we were friends, and she just understood me , you and I were having such a hard time...blah..blah..blah"....I don't have anything to "explain" what happened. He deployed, he did put up my pictures and the pictures of our sons on the walls of his room. He then preceeded to (insert a vulgar word here) anything that would give him a few seconds to do so. Didn't matter age, looks, weight..he was all equal opportunity. They all knew he was married, they saw my pictures and my sons pictures all over the walls, there was no friendship, there was no "aww...she was just gorgeous"....there was no "whoops it just happened", just oportunity, heck he didn't even have to date them, buy anything for them....just "be there". If that's all it takes....how the h...e double L are you suppposed to "process" that? I feel like my husband and my marriage died over there, and who/what am I living with now. No wonder, I'm constantly wondering.....driving myself crazy who/what/when/where it's going to happen again.

 

[JustAGirl]

I started to read this thread thinking it would be one of those, "boy, can I relate"...but sadly...I don't find myself having "the luxury" (I'll explain that crazy choice of words ) there was no "fog"..."dopamine-induced" "search for happiness" in my WH choices. There wasn't any, "oh, we were friends, and she just understood me , you and I were having such a hard time...blah..blah..blah"....I don't have anything to "explain" what happened. He deployed, he did put up my pictures and the pictures of our sons on the walls of his room. He then preceeded to (insert a vulgar word here) anything that would give him a few seconds to do so. Didn't matter age, looks, weight..he was all equal opportunity. They all knew he was married, they saw my pictures and my sons pictures all over the walls, there was no friendship, there was no "aww...she was just gorgeous"....there was no "whoops it just happened", just oportunity, heck he didn't even have to date them, buy anything for them....just "be there". If that's all it takes....how the h...e double L are you suppposed to "process" that? I feel like my husband and my marriage died over there, and who/what am I living with now. No wonder, I'm constantly wondering.....driving myself crazy who/what/when/where it's going to happen again.

I may not know anything about anything....but it sounds like he's trying to fill a void that you have nothing to do with. Or maybe has a sexual addiction? Whatever it is, it's HIS problem.....Take care of you

 

[SoWhatNow]

Have you been or are you involved in an extra maritial realtionship? or has your significant other been involved in one and that is what is driving your interest in the subject?

Stumbled upon the forum... found the topic intriguing... honestly, that's it. Slow day at work.

You've taken a decidedly aggressive approach to objecting to the facts and opinions I've offered.

My post wasn't intended to be aggressive at all. If you read it as such, please know, that wasn't my intention. I just think we just have opposite opinion on the topic, and my post reflected that that dichotomy.

The comment about "drugs" being a grand overstatement. If anything it's an understatement.

Again, I disagree. I've been in love, and in my younger days, I was high on all sorts of drugs. In my opinion, they are not similar in how they impact the brain. As a prime example, no one has ever ODed on love.

The example you use about someone not being allowed to drive is absurd. I think you know that but you use that example to hit home a point your trying to make. Fine, nice showmanship.

It wasn't intended as showmanship, it was meant to highlight how much of an overstatement I believe the analogy is. People who are actually on drugs, are in such a compromised mental state, that they can be a danger to themselves and everyone around them. People in love or having an affair, don't represent this same danger to the general public.

I think that the last stat I saw said that over 10% of the population is on anti-depressants, and in general up to 50% of the population is on some type of perscription medication at any given time. This says nothing about over the counter drugs which could increase the numbers over 75%. So 3 out of 4 people in the US are on "drugs" at any given time.

If we use the statistic you've offered, that 75% of the people are on drugs, than 75% of cheaters are on drugs. And if that's true, we'd then have to understand what impacts dopamine has on the brain, in combination with each of the drugs that the 75% of cheaters are on, to have a true understanding of the impact of an affair on the brain.

None of these things are unique to affairs, they are simply present in them. We are on an infidelity forum, we are discussing affairs and infidelity. Dopamine production and it's effects are very much present in affairs, That was the reason for this discussion here.

Agreed. And I do appreciate the context in which it was presented. However, I think it read as if the "fog" is unique to affairs. And I also think it suggested, that people in affairs don't actually fall in love with one another, they merely think they do, because of the fog. However, I would argue, that the fog, by and large, is the sensation of falling in love.

All that said... I sincerely feel bad for your personal situation. I can't even imagine what you're going through. I truly hope you find the peace you seek and the resolution you desire. Best of luck.

Cheers.

 

[SoWhatNow]

The dopamine was not what started the affair. The cheating spouse walked down that slippery slope on their own. The dopamine simply makes the affair more appealing once it is in progress.

From what science knows, dopamine is connected to love. So, it would stand to reason, the affair becomes more appealing, only because the person is falling in love. I'm not suggesting I know this to be a fact, I'm just stating this is what I understand.

It does become an addiction, in my opinion, making it very hard to stop. Not all affairs, though. A one-night stand wouldn't produce this. A deep emotional affair definitely does.

Agreed on the latter part. However, I tend think we throw around the term "addiction" too liberally in this country. I don't believe people become addicted to each other or the feelings that another engenders in us. I think when we find happiness, even when that happiness comes outside of our primary relationship, we pursue it.

 

[cowgirl70]

Wow, this answered so many questions I have had for months.... Thank you for sharing. Not that it makes the hurt any easier but it explains the why.....

 

[3rdmanout]

As a chemist and a LS, I find this thread very intersting, engaging, and totally understandable. Many on these thoughts on the power of dopamine (and other natural brain chemistry) associated with intense personal relationships have crossed my mind in bits and pieces, but never really come together. Thank you for your articulation.
Even though my DS's affair ended with the end of her deployment, she has expressed still having intense feelings for him and finds it impossible to not contact him. Knowing the power of dopamine and the loning created when it is taken away, and her guilt over hurting me and tearing apart our family makes me worry that she'll never be able to get past this and decide that she wants to rebuild our relationship.
Knowledge is power, but sometimes, it is just plain scary.

 

[3rdmanout]

"As a prime example, no one has ever ODed on love."

Maybe not, but many people have committed suicide when their love was taken away.

 

[Habibi]

You have no idea how much better I feel after reading this! And it's been 8 months since my husband cheated. It's so much easier to look at it in this non personal way.

 

[remmons]

You have no idea how much better I feel after reading this! And it's been 8 months since my husband cheated. It's so much easier to look at it in this non personal way.

I felt the same way when I started reading this thread. It has been almost 11 months now since I discovered my W's EA, and her daughters "relationship". This thread summarizes 5 years of my marriage in one sweep.

 

[Pit-of-my-stomach]

You have no idea how much better I feel after reading this! And it's been 8 months since my husband cheated. It's so much easier to look at it in this non personal way.

Your very welcome. I'm sorry this is happening to you.

It also helped me to educate myself and depersonalize some of what was happening and what I was witnessing.

The poster previously who was interested in the subject but had never been through any of this can't understand and I can't explain. God willing, he will never understand this. I couldn't have unless I had seen it.

As many of you that are going through this understand, Many of my W's behaviors were so bizarre and foriegn they were outside my ability to comprehend and digest, particularly in my comprimised emotional state. I needed to understand.

Double edged sword... I will admit, I will never look at "falling in love", attraction or any of it with the same starry eyes ever again. Guess you dissect anything far enough, it losses some of its 'magic'.

 

[HurtinginTN]

I will admit, I will never look at "falling in love", attraction or any of it with the same starry eyes ever again. Guess you dissect anything far enough, it losses some of its 'magic'.

Oh, Pit. One day we will both meet that magic woman (hopefully not the same woman, lol), the dopamine will flow freely, and we will forget what dopamine, affairs, etc. even are. Of course, I'm sure that will be many months down the road for both of us and after we are healed.

I also am grateful for all of the research that you have done into all of this. Several of your threads have been very helpful to me, including this one. Also, for your book suggestion. I've been reading it most nights and it has helped a lot in helping my children.

 

[MrQuatto]

bump

 

[Arnold]

No, there are clearly some people who will never cross that line. I amnot claiming to be one of them. But, I know folks who never would do it.
Of course, neither of us can prove out takes on this, eh?

 

[Arnold]

I'm happy to discuss this with you at length. I hope to be able to find time to address anything you want to discuss. I'm not a scientist or psychologist, I'm not writing a paper and don't have professional capitol tied to being right or wrong about this. I'd just assume none of this ever happened to me and I never felt compelled to find answers to these questions which have haunted my life.

Have you been or are you involved in an extra maritial realtionship? or has your significant other been involved in one and that is what is driving your interest in the subject?

If you want to have an intelligent open minded conversation about these things, I would love to engage with you. Obviously, I have an interest. You've taken a decidedly aggresive approach to objecting to the facts and opinions I've offered. That is obviously fine, even good if your coming from the 'right' place.

It would help for me to understand what angle your coming from. I'm not interesting in trying to change your mind or force anything down your throat if your determined to disagree. In that case your going to bounce around and find a "weak spot" to exploit. Your going to believe what you want or need too.

Start with...

The comment about "drugs" being a grand overstatement. If anything it's an understatement. The example you use about someone not being allowed to drive is absurd. I think you know that but you use that example to hit home a point your trying to make. Fine, nice showmanship.

I think that the last stat I saw said that over 10% of the population is on anti-depressants, and in general up to 50% of the population is on some type of perscription medication at any given time. This says nothing about over the counter drugs which could increase the numbers over 75%. So 3 out of 4 people in the US are on "drugs" at any given time. Depending on the drug, the effects on the individual vary widely. Most drive.

Dopamine along with the other chemicals that are naturally released by your brain are drugs. Dopamine's power is amazing. Some perscription drugs and most addictive "street drugs" produce or stimulate the production of high levels of dopamine in the brain. This production of dopamine IS what people are addicted to. Addictive drugs flood the brain with dopamine and condition us to expect artificially high levels of the neurotransmitter. Over time, the user's brain requires more dopamine than it can naturally produce, and it becomes dependent on the drug.

The drug is just the vehicle for it's production. Affairs are also a vehicle for the production of massive amounts of dopamine. It's addictive properties don't change based on what is delivering it.



Dopamine production or it's addiction is not unique to affairs, that's rediculous. None of these things are unique to affairs, they are simply present in them. We are on an infidelity forum, we are discussing affairs and infidelity. Dopamine production and it's effects are very much present in affairs, That was the reason for this discussion here.

Wouldn't you agree though, pit, that in order to get to the place hwere the stimuli for production of dopamine is present, one has to usually make a series of choices that alow exposure to the stimuli. And, that is where one , clearly, has control.
It is why we prosecute drunk drivers, despit the fact that, often, by the time they get behind the wheel, they are too impaired to realize their impairment.