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Discussion Starter #21
Plan 9 when you put it that way it really does put it into a better perspective for me. I would say she is selfish in her own right but her choices have not had such an impact as mine have. The business i can sell and limit the impact of the money spent. My children are 17 and 15 so not quite adults. She was a stay at home mother but her family is about two hours from the place i was stationed. She does have family and friends here as well. To be honest except for the being a lazy loser part my other choices started with the best of intentions and. I don't feel any guilt for wanting to be near my children I am apologetic for the implementation.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
It is good that you have acknowledged your mistakes and are working hard to fix your marriage and change your actions. However, just because you are trying to forgive yourself and move on, it doesn't mean your wife has come to that point too.
She is checking out or has already checked out.
As you have stated, your past actions have caused her to resent you to the point of just tolerating being around you.








So you've been verbally abusing her (nothing physical so that should make it ok?), you made a big financial/business decision all by yourself, ignoring her opinion, you pretty much ignored her and never helped with kids, barely wanted to spend time with her and yet you're surprised that she's checked out?
Your actions sound a lot like my husband's. I would love to hear her side of the story. There is probably so much more to this.
I'm sorry if I'm being harsh but I think you need to hear it. You can try to win her back but to me it seems that she is gone, emotionally.
I am a victim of verbal abuse and let me tell you... you have NO IDEA what it does to a person. Or you do, but you choose to do it anyway. I don't see love in your actions. I don't see respect. You took her for granted and she's finally had it.
Good luck to you, I hope you can improve for yourself and your kids; don't do it for your wife or just to try to save your marriage. It is only true and honest if you do it for yourself.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Annie123 As I stated early on I am only taking my side of the street and trying to clean it, but to add a bit of clarification. there have only been two occasions in our 5 years of marriage that I have said mean things to her and that is after long periods of her not saying a word to me for days at a time and her being extremely cruel to me as in going to get food for everyone and nothing for me not that is just one of many things and no i am not justifying saying mean things. Constant criticism even before I did any of the things that I have stated above she always had a reason to be mad at me and most of the time it was for things that I did not even do. She would move something forget where she put it and then blame me. Even in the best of times if I got her a gift she would not be happy with it. She without even talking to me decided to have a procedure to ensure that she would never have children. I would have had no problem with it but she did not even talk to me about it. My step daughter who's father wanted nothing to do with her was searched for for years by my wife and when she eventually found him she was in communication with him for weeks and even let my daughter talk to him before telling me. The verbal abuse has been much more and for a longer period of time from her and i sat back and took it and eventually started to defend myself. If at anytime i told her no to something she wanted and it was never because i wanted control but maybe a money issue oh how i paid the price. A few years ago she had me arrested on Christmas because i grabbed her arm i was nothing acting in a hostile manner toward her but she was mad at me. When we lived in another city she would start fights to have a reason to go to her families two hours away. I have compromised on many things over the years and she has not compromised at all. I am trying to justify my mistakes but your tone suggest that I have been some abusive jerk.
 

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Annie123 As I stated early on I am only taking my side of the street and trying to clean it, but to add a bit of clarification. there have only been two occasions in our 5 years of marriage that I have said mean things to her and that is after long periods of her not saying a word to me for days at a time and her being extremely cruel to me as in going to get food for everyone and nothing for me not that is just one of many things and no i am not justifying saying mean things. Constant criticism even before I did any of the things that I have stated above she always had a reason to be mad at me and most of the time it was for things that I did not even do. She would move something forget where she put it and then blame me. Even in the best of times if I got her a gift she would not be happy with it. She without even talking to me decided to have a procedure to ensure that she would never have children. I would have had no problem with it but she did not even talk to me about it. My step daughter who's father wanted nothing to do with her was searched for for years by my wife and when she eventually found him she was in communication with him for weeks and even let my daughter talk to him before telling me. The verbal abuse has been much more and for a longer period of time from her and i sat back and took it and eventually started to defend myself. If at anytime i told her no to something she wanted and it was never because i wanted control but maybe a money issue oh how i paid the price. A few years ago she had me arrested on Christmas because i grabbed her arm i was nothing acting in a hostile manner toward her but she was mad at me. When we lived in another city she would start fights to have a reason to go to her families two hours away. I have compromised on many things over the years and she has not compromised at all. I am trying to justify my mistakes but your tone suggest that I have been some abusive jerk.
OK, now we know more about the whole situation. In your initial posts you made it sound like you were the only one to blame for everything but this post changes my point of view.

With that said, saying hurtful things is never justified, no matter how frustrated we get. You are responsible for your actions, no matter what she did beforehand. Same goes for grabbing her arm too.

It seems to me that there was a point in your marriage when communication stopped and you guys stopped being partners. Then resentment started to build up and now you are where you are because of that.

Maybe it can all be fixed but you both need to be willing to do it and on the same page in order for that to happen. It seems she's not there.

Try to have an honest conversation with her, tell her how you feel and what you want out of your marriage. Ask her what she wants and if your goals do not match then you know you need to move on, no matter how much it hurts.
 

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I want it but she says that she is done and then says I don't know right now. I must admit that our last blow up fight was Christmas day. There has not been any cheating on my part and have no proof that she is. Communication has been an issue. She has a lot of resentments toward me.

I can only take responsibility for my part of things. I allowed myself to become a bum over the last year I make money but not a lot but I have the potential to make alot more but allowed myself to become complacent. She says that she does not trust me. Although I am not in horrible shape I have let myself go a bit. She wanted me to go out with her and i did not more often then not. I never helped her with the kids.

I failed her as a husband in that I did not provide the level of security that I should have. Over the last several months I have allowed my fear and frustration turn into rage never any physical abuse but i do realize that it can be scary. I purchased a business even when she said that she did not agree but I foolishly thought once you see the money you will change your mind. I knew she was not happy with it but did not realize the depth until she told me just recently. I have a sharp tongue when I get angry and have said some hurtful things which I dont really believe but wanted to hurt her feelings.

She resents the fact that we moved to Florida but my children are here. I have been out of the Army for a little more then a year and just really have had a tough time finding a new sense of purpose.

All of the things listed can be changed except being in Florida because I will not be away from the kids any longer. I don't know if I should stay hopeful that she allow back in or just get on with my life.
So you are clearly a POS. Does she have any faults?

It's possible she is rationalizing/looking for reasons to get away from you to pursue other options.
 

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Discussion Starter #29 (Edited)
I have sat her down a couple of times and her answers range from I don't to we need to work on being good parents then work on the marriage. to i am totally done. Now granted this has all these answers have all been since christmas day. She has starting talking to me again and been more apparent about who she is on the phone with. I am about to sell my business and buy a house with the money but don't want to end up in a situation in which she moves with me but still has no goal to work on the marriage. Although she would never admit it she does have issues that stem from her childhood and low self-esteem which is crazy because she is beautiful. She has no high school diploma and that is a point of shame for her. Also her brother was recently murdered so i am not sure how much that is playing a role in how she is acting. I don't want to quite on her too soon but feel that I can't help her if she won't let me. We have had several hot and cold spells in our marriage but not as severe as right now. She would always come back as if nothing happened without us ever talking about it. So i am not sure if this a more severe case of what i have seen in the past or truly the end. I will give it some more time and ask her because the latest wounds are still relatively fresh.
 

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If your wife says she no longer wants to be married, has she asked you for a divorce? Or do you think she is open to marriage counseling?

Sometimes when someone says they no longer want to be married, or they want a divorce, it isn't always want they actually want. They feel like they've done everything in their power to get their partner's attention/to get their partner to acknowledge the problem/spur their partner to action, and this is the absolute last-ditch effort to enact change. Occasionally, it is what they want, and they really are finished.

Do you know which one it is? The answer to this may be critical to what your next move is.

If she really is done, then you may have to say, "OK, then," start doing the 180, and start living your live in preparation for the inevitable divorce. Start working on yourself--start working on improving some of the faults/flawed items you listed above, like the getting back in shape, working on making the business as successful as possible, being an active father as much as you can. All of this is for you, and becoming the best version of yourself--not for her, and not to win her back. Focus on you and getting your shiz in order. She just might change her mind about wanting out of the marriage.

This is important: read the link. Don't just go off of what I've said here, because what I have said is a poor summation. The 180 is designed for betrayed spouses, but I think it could help in your case.

If she's NOT done, and this was really a last ditch effort to shake things up and get you to start paying attention, then I think MC and IC are definitely in order. Along with this, though, you're still going to want to implement a lot of the stuff from the 180. You are still going to have to work on yourself and work on being the kind of man your wife wants to be married to--not the bum that you say you've become. It will take a lot of effort to convince her. But I think you can do this, if you really want it and have the motivation. Don't get all mopey and beg her to stay, or follow her around like a puppy dog. It won't work and just makes you look weak. Women like strong, confident men. That's why they dig guys in uniform! Bring back the awesome, and show her that you're still the guy that she married, even without the uniform. Make her choose to stay with you by becoming an stronger, better version of yourself.
 

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I have sat her down a couple of times and her answers range from I don't to we need to work on being good parents then work on the marriage. to i am totally done. Now granted this has all these answers have all been since christmas day. She has starting talking to me again and been more apparent about who she is on the phone with. I am about to sell my business and buy a house with the money but don't want to end up in a situation in which she moves with me but still has no goal to work on the marriage. Although she would never admit it she does have issues that stem from her childhood and low self-esteem which is crazy because she is beautiful. She has no high school diploma and that is a point of shame for her. Also her brother was recently murdered so i am not sure how much that is playing a role in how she is acting. I don't want to quite on her too soon but feel that I can't help her if she won't let me. We have had several hot and cold spells in our marriage but not as severe as right now. She would always come back as if nothing happened without us ever talking about it. So i am not sure if this a more severe case of what i have seen in the past or truly the end. I will give it some more time and ask her because the latest wounds are still relatively fresh.
I would suggest that you hold off on selling the business and buying a house until you have a better handle on what's coming up next, unless you have specific financial reasons for needing to sell the business now, and it would financially harm you to keep it. But definitely don't buy a house.

Ah, and yeah. Her grief over the loss of her brother could definitely have something to do with it.

And you may have to draw a line with her. You may have to say, "Look, you've done this before, and you've always come back. You need to make a choice, either commit to work on saving marriage, or leave. But if you leave, this is the last time. I'm not going to take you back again." Her hot-n-cold, leaving and then coming back behavior is really unhealthy, and it's unfair to you. It's very manipulative. It sounds like she holds all the power in this relationship, and she knows it.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
She has said she wants out and when I press her to make a decision she says that I am trying to make her make a decision that she is not ready to make but has not said divorce. She will say things like right now I don't know right now I can't say how I will feel in the future. I have stopped the moping and begging and walk tall with my head up even though I have to force it sometimes. I am certain she wants to see some decisive action and to see that I am really changing not just for the moment but permanently. Yes she does have all the power and am trying a more scarcity breeds desire approach without over doing it. I have seen that when I just kind of go about my business and do my own thing she softens up more in her approach toward me. All of my interactions with her are polite on my side. The hard part for me is when she does something that hurts my feelings is that quiet desperation I feel without letting her know. I sometimes want the quick fix but realize only time can heal.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
I also know that at this point my words don't carry much weight with her. I am not certain that once i improve myself to the point i intend to that i would want to move forward with her. Once my house is in order mind, body and money I might realize that i don't need anyone but i am having a tough time getting to that point.
 

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deg20 did you try to work it out or just let it go at that

Kingrocc, I asked to go to counselling...she refused. I asked her to talk about our issues and tried to open up discussions...she shut me down or walked away or changed the subject or turned up the radio in the car to drown me out. It was over, despite my efforts. My issues were her step kids and me not wanting to go to gatherings or her family cottage on weekends. Some of that was my introverted personality...some was me just wanting to relax at home on weekends or work on the house instead of going to the cottage with her and the kids.

But she became distant first...always in her phone and ignoring and avoiding me, so I believe I protested by not participating in those functions, albeit subconsciously at times I think.

I remember lying in bed one night, her back to me, not being touched by her for months. Finally I said, " What is wrong here...you don't touch me, talk to me, cuddle me, kiss me...what is wrong?"...I would always get "I'm tired...I'm stressed...Don't stress me out...Don't guilt me..." Always one of those. So finally, she left me. No attempt at fixing or talking. She was just done. She was single for 10 months, and now she's been with a guy for a year...when they check out, it's a done deal, I'm afraid...
 

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OP, it's very possible that once you get going on the 180, you may well find that you realize you don't want to save the marriage, and want to move forward with divorce. That's OK. She's certainly not giving you much of a reason to stick around.

BUT... she also doesn't have much reason to believe your words, or believe that you really will change for the better, and/or maintain that change. If you show her that you're someone to believe in, she might give you reason to stick around.

If that does happen, you'll need to have a "come to Jesus" discussion about her histrionics (the habitual leaving when things get tough, and then coming back). That type of behavior is unacceptable in a mature, healthy relationship. When things get rough, she needs to tough it out and work through things with you, which she has been avoiding thus far. (I think this may be why you've become a "bum" in the last year, and why you purchased the business without her consent--a passive aggressive attempt to assert your power in the relationship, and to get back at her for her histrionics.) You need to man up and tell her that it's unacceptable, and the next time she pulls that crap, whether it's next month or 20 years from now, she won't be welcomed back and the locks will be changed. It's not an ultimatum. You're establishing limited and expectations for the relationship, and letting her know the consequences if she crosses that line again. She's crossed it too many times before.

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I even asked if there was another man and that it would help me move on and she denied and i don't have reason or proof to not believe her, but the physical side of her is so closed off to me that she does not even want me to see her without clothes.
You have to find out if there is someone else. She could be involved in a long term affair. You have been far from perfect but her actions seem extreme. Her not wanting you to see her body is a red flag. That sounds like someone being faithful to someone else.

You should continue to improve yourself as a man but you could be the perfect husband, it will not make a dent if she giving herself to another emotionally and physically. Her saying there is no one else doesn't mean squat.

You need to go James Bond and dig through everything. Check her phone, email, social media. If possible, get a VAR in her car. It's great way of getting info. Don't fall for the you're invading my privacy or being controlling meme. you're fighting for your marriage.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
On the cheating thing I just cant see when she would have the time honestly. She does not spend inordinate amounts of time out of the house when she is not working. Before the last time I said some extremely mean things we had been physical, after that she shut me out and it has only been a bit more then a month since then. I have gone through the pain of a possible affair the math just does not work out, even though we are on rocky terms we are not separated long enough for her to have the time for an affair. We talked last night she said that she needs to see the change for longer then two weeks. She acknowledged I have been better but the trust just has not come back enough. I am going to be the change I wish to see in her and if it takes too long for her to come around then I will just move on. I am working on big things and gaining the confidence that I let slip away over the last year.

Thank you to everyone who has given me advice so far.
 

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I thought the same thing. My wife wasnt cheating in her mind, but 2 days after she said she wanted divorce, I looked at the phone bill and she had been talking to another man. And yes, she had seen him in person. I do not know the extent and never cared to find out as I went forward with divorce quickly, but point is do not assume there is just no way. They find a way if they want it.

Secondly, if you have already been 'sitting her down' to 'discuss the marriage' and it hasnt resolved anything, then STOP doing this. At this point it will make you seem needy and LESS ATTRACTIVE. Start investing in yourself, be happy regardless, let it show that you are going to be ok with or without her. Read the 180, especially the first parts about not pleading, begging, etc. I would not even talk to her about your marriage. Bring your best self out for you and either way, with or without her, your life will improve.

STOP talking about it.
 

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I thought the same thing. My wife wasnt cheating in her mind, but 2 days after she said she wanted divorce, I looked at the phone bill and she had been talking to another man. And yes, she had seen him in person. I do not know the extent and never cared to find out as I went forward with divorce quickly, but point is do not assume there is just no way. They find a way if they want it.

Secondly, if you have already been 'sitting her down' to 'discuss the marriage' and it hasnt resolved anything, then STOP doing this. At this point it will make you seem needy and LESS ATTRACTIVE. Start investing in yourself, be happy regardless, let it show that you are going to be ok with or without her. Read the 180, especially the first parts about not pleading, begging, etc. I would not even talk to her about your marriage. Bring your best self out for you and either way, with or without her, your life will improve.

STOP talking about it.
I agree. You may think that because she has no time, she couldn't be cheating. People who want to cheat, they will find a way to cheat. There are others who have ample opportunities and time, and still do NOT cheat, because they have no desire to cheat.

Stop talking , start doing. Talking never yields results. Action yields results. In all things. Not just marriage.
 
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