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Discussion Starter #62
Yep. And your friends liked you because you are you, quirks and all, and you felt the same way about them.

My ex wanted nothing to do with my family. Or any friends I had before I knew him. To my shame, I let him isolate me from my friends and family because I felt I was a bad wife if I pushed him to be around people he didn't want to be around or if I went to see them without him. At some point - after at least 15 years of the distancing - I got a hold of my self and realized I should not let him stop me from having people I loved and cared about in my life and I started going to family gatherings without him.

The worst possible thing for our marriage happened. I thought I would feel lonely and self conscious without him there -- everyone else's spouse was there, but instead I had MORE FUN without him than I ever could have had with himEveryone was just COMFORTABLE and I felt like I could BE MYSELF, and that was suddenly a GOOD thing. I could enjoy my family and friends without his judgments and displeasure and disapproval and sulky attitude that he wanted to be ANYWHERE but there with THOSE losers...

I also have a new boyfriend and it is just SO DIFFERENT to be with an emotionally healthy person. There is no tension. No drama. My ex would say "You have this fantasy that someone or something somewhere else is going to make you happy and it's just all in your head, you should not compare yourself to other people." Well guess what? I wasn't happy then and I am happy now. If that's all in my head, who cares? I'm too happy and carefree to worry about it. :)
WW, I'm so so happy for you that no longer makes you feel the way you used to feel.

You have no idea how true this is ringing for me. My wife shames me for even WANTING to see and be with friends that are still friends with my ex-wife. I've been breaking away from that lately and feel good for doing so. I went to dinner a month or two ago with a friend that is still in fairly close contact with my ex, and went to the baseball game. In both instances, I had a wonderful time. I thought the same, that I would feel lonely or incomplete without here there with me, but I felt more the opposite and it felt strangely calming to me. Sulky is the exact word I'd use for her behavior in so many situations.

Honestly, I dream of a life with being with somebody and being somebody and feel that light feeling of no tension, no constant judgement of absolutely everything that is happening and not have drama just bleeding everywhere based on that. My wife says she thinks I just want nothing but happiness all the time...and to that I can only say...doesn't everybody WANT that? I know I'm not dumb enough to know that everything can just be happy all the time...but I also know there is SO much more happiness out there for me, and I want it bad. Does that make selfish?
 

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Discussion Starter #63
HIT,

There is no chance she is going to improve,

Your kids don't need to see this....what a horror show worse than anything in the movies

Please just divorce and don't look back or answer calls or messages.

She will try to sex bomb you to keep you to stay don't fall for it.
I agree, sadly. I've waited and waited for the situation to improve to a point where I start to feel comfortable and that is not coming. There have been small, incremental changes made for short periods of time but not enough to move the needle as they are not lasting.

That bombing has occurred over and over as I've grown more tired and exhausted and distant, and continues to this day. That has occurred because I've allowed it to and that's on me.
 

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Of course it doesn't make you selfish. It makes you unrealistic, in my opinion, but not selfish. No real, long-term relationship will be filled with happiness all the time, but the arc over time should tip into the happy range or else the relationship isn't really good for you, is it?

That being said, though, I don't think it's happiness that's really at issue here. Your arc in your marriage is in the misery range most of the time. It's not that you are unhappy. You are abused and miserable. You want some relief from that. Wanting not to be abused and miserable is not selfish. It's self-defense.
 

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Discussion Starter #65
How about next time she gets in your face about something, just calmly say "I don't deserve this and will no longer be talked to in this fashion. If you want to TALK, we can talk, but this isn't talking" Then get up and go into a different room.
If she comes after you, make sure the room has a lock.

Give her 1/2 hour to calm down. If that doesn't work, next time make it an hour. THen 1.5 hours. If it takes longer than that, then you REALLY need to consider if this is something you want to continue living with.
I have started to walk away. I've attempted in the past and it only makes her more angry. Most people can cool down after some time to think. She ONLY gets more mad and more angry...and madder and angrier the more time that passes.

One morning a few months ago when I got up for work at 5 am, I made it clear that it wasn't a good time to talk about her being mad from the night before and I left the room to leave for work. She followed me downstairs and started SCREAMING at me and woke up every child in the house on a Saturday morning. This is not going to end well.
 

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Discussion Starter #66
She KNOWS why he doesn't want to be around her, nobody is that dense.

She's an emotional terrorist/vampire.

Some people get off on controlling the emotions of others.....why does is seem it's never to make others happy, only sad??

Deep down you know the right thing to do.

Like another person said upstream, ''stigma be damned''
Deep down I really do know. I know. I've tried to tell her for a while that she needs help and that my perception of things is that her emotions and feelings RUN our household. She of course does not agree and tells me that I'm mean for even thinking that, let alone say it.
 

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Discussion Starter #67
People often say that other people can't make you happy. You are in charge of your own happiness.

To this, I say, 'fair enough,' but other people can certainly make you unhappy. Your recourse in that case is often to simply get away from those who cause the unhappiness.

If you stick with this thread, you will likely more and more come to terms with the idea of separation. She doesn't get a veto. You can separate. If divorce follows, well, then it follows.

Life is too short to live the way you are living.
I'm coming more and more to terms with what needs to happen every single day. Receiving your folks' ideas, comments, concerns, opinions has been very eye opening. I've not wanted to face this for far too long out of some sort of weakness I have. I know I need to be a stronger man for both myself and for my kids that I cherish so damn much.
 

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Discussion Starter #68
Of course it doesn't make you selfish. It makes you unrealistic, in my opinion, but not selfish. No real, long-term relationship will be filled with happiness all the time, but the arc over time should tip into the happy range or else the relationship isn't really good for you, is it?

That being said, though, I don't think it's happiness that's really at issue here. Your arc in your marriage is in the misery range most of the time. It's not that you are unhappy. You are abused and miserable. You want some relief from that. Wanting not to be abused and miserable is not selfish. It's self-defense.
Right...I definitely do not expect happiness all the time. That would be a fool's errand in my mind. I know every single relationship has times of conflict, argument, fight, etc. I agree...I don't think happiness is the entire picture here either. It's so much more and I've never been able to put my finger on it or as close to it as it is right now.
 

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WW, I'm so so happy for you that no longer makes you feel the way you used to feel.

You have no idea how true this is ringing for me. My wife shames me for even WANTING to see and be with friends that are still friends with my ex-wife. I've been breaking away from that lately and feel good for doing so. I went to dinner a month or two ago with a friend that is still in fairly close contact with my ex, and went to the baseball game. In both instances, I had a wonderful time. I thought the same, that I would feel lonely or incomplete without here there with me, but I felt more the opposite and it felt strangely calming to me. Sulky is the exact word I'd use for her behavior in so many situations.

Honestly, I dream of a life with being with somebody and being somebody and feel that light feeling of no tension, no constant judgement of absolutely everything that is happening and not have drama just bleeding everywhere based on that. My wife says she thinks I just want nothing but happiness all the time...and to that I can only say...doesn't everybody WANT that? I know I'm not dumb enough to know that everything can just be happy all the time...but I also know there is SO much more happiness out there for me, and I want it bad. Does that make selfish?
EXACTLY. No, it doesn't make you selfish and believe me, it is attainable. At least it seems that way to me right now. I'm not saying there are never ANY issues with my new BF, but they is just none of the DRAMA. NEVER a worry that something has annoyed him and now he's going to suck all the joy out of life. NEVER a worry that I've said or done something that has offended him and I'm going to be blind sided with an attitude from him. It's actually hard for me to stop being paranoid that I've said or done something "inappropriate" but I'm slowly getting the hand of this "all's well" thing.

What I realize now is the "grow up, happiness does not exist" routine is always paired with trying to keep you away from other people you care about because time with other people is proof that happiness DOES exist. You W is deeply insecure, but instead of trying to be a nicer, kinder person to keep your love, she is trying to keep you from the rest of the world. Even hurting your relationship with your children.

Reading your post I have to think your Wife sounds so much like my ex in the way she tries telling you happiness does not exist that I'd say I should introduce her to my ex once you get out of that relationship. Except, he would NEVER put up with her drama, LOL.
 

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Discussion Starter #70
EXACTLY. No, it doesn't make you selfish and believe me, it is attainable. At least it seems that way to me right now. I'm not saying there are never ANY issues with my new BF, but they is just none of the DRAMA. NEVER a worry that something has annoyed him and now he's going to suck all the joy out of life. NEVER a worry that I've said or done something that has offended him and I'm going to be blind sided with an attitude from him. It's actually hard for me to stop being paranoid that I've said or done something "inappropriate" but I'm slowly getting the hand of this "all's well" thing.

What I realize now is the "grow up, happiness does not exist" routine is always paired with trying to keep you away from other people you care about because time with other people is proof that happiness DOES exist. You W is deeply insecure, but instead of trying to be a nicer, kinder person to keep your love, she is trying to keep you from the rest of the world. Even hurting your relationship with your children.

Reading your post I have to think your Wife sounds so much like my ex in the way she tries telling you happiness does not exist that I'd say I should introduce her to my ex once you get out of that relationship. Except, he would NEVER put up with her drama, LOL.
You know, I've had pangs of that feelings like she had been actively trying to keep me away from certain people, but I would always dismiss that in the name of loving her and her loving me. I've known for a while there has to be a reason when I'm happier, lighter, more "myself" when I'm not with her or she is not around. It was never clear, but it's becoming more and more clear now.

We should get those 2 together and just watch the fireworks lol!
 

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You know, I've had pangs of that feelings like she had been actively trying to keep me away from certain people, but I would always dismiss that in the name of loving her and her loving me. I've known for a while there has to be a reason when I'm happier, lighter, more "myself" when I'm not with her or she is not around. It was never clear, but it's becoming more and more clear now.

We should get those 2 together and just watch the fireworks lol!
My ex never would have told me I can't see someone. Rather he just used his attitude of displeasure and resistance in joining in to make it clear that our marriage would be better if I stayed away from those people. And if I ever did arrange a get together, even with his permission, he was just basically a **** to me leading up to it and afterwards. He didn't have to "forbid" me, I understood.

If I wanted to go see family without him he wouldn't say no, but he'd make it very clear that he didn't want me leaving, he wanted me home with him, us together. But no, he wasn't going to go with me. I could be a bad wife and abandon my husband, or I could sit at home with him and have relative peace.

On few occasions (maybe once every 2 or 3 years) when we did go somewhere together or I had people over he always made it uncomfortable. If I had people over he was always "sick" in bed most of the time. If we went to see family he dictated the schedule to minimize contact with them as much as possible. And then there was the sulky, pouty, difficult, irritated attitude the whole time...

But I totally embraced all his friends and family because I knew they were important to him, and he never questioned that because his friends and family = GOOD, mine = SUCK.

SO PLEASE TELL ME YOU"RE GETTING OUT OF THIS MARRIAGE ASAP. And you're not letting her talk you into staying/trying/whatever. If not for yourself, do it for your son. He should not grow up in an environment like this where he can't relax and be himself and be loved and treasured for who he is, no matter how much you love your wife. She can find someone else to love her. She will be fine.

Take what you've learned from this relationship and find an and adult capable of being loved and loving you back. And take what you learned from your first marriage and be sure to discuss things of concern early on. Dang, your life could be SO much happier. (Even if you stay single for some time and just enjoy your children and friends.)
 

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I have started to walk away. I've attempted in the past and it only makes her more angry. Most people can cool down after some time to think. She ONLY gets more mad and more angry...and madder and angrier the more time that passes.
That is because her anger is not genuine anger at something you have done. It is a manipulation to get something from you -- a concession? Drama? Attention? who knows, but "anger" is the tool her subconscious knows to use. So when a little anger doesn't get her what she wants, she just digs in and doubles down.

When a person is genuinely angry at something, time and space helps them calm down and gain objectivity.

You say she hasn't been diagnosed bi-polar or anything like that. Are you familiar with Narcissistic personality disorder? If not, read up on it a bit. She may be a narcissist. If she is, the only thing you can do to solve it is leave and save yourself because a narcissist is basically impossible to have a good relationship with but they have no desire to change who they are because from their perspective there is no problem.
 

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Discussion Starter #73
My ex never would have told me I can't see someone. Rather he just used his attitude of displeasure and resistance in joining in to make it clear that our marriage would be better if I stayed away from those people. And if I ever did arrange a get together, even with his permission, he was just basically a **** to me leading up to it and afterwards. He didn't have to "forbid" me, I understood.

If I wanted to go see family without him he wouldn't say no, but he'd make it very clear that he didn't want me leaving, he wanted me home with him, us together. But no, he wasn't going to go with me. I could be a bad wife and abandon my husband, or I could sit at home with him and have relative peace.

On few occasions (maybe once every 2 or 3 years) when we did go somewhere together or I had people over he always made it uncomfortable. If I had people over he was always "sick" in bed most of the time. If we went to see family he dictated the schedule to minimize contact with them as much as possible. And then there was the sulky, pouty, difficult, irritated attitude the whole time...

But I totally embraced all his friends and family because I knew they were important to him, and he never questioned that because his friends and family = GOOD, mine = SUCK.

SO PLEASE TELL ME YOU"RE GETTING OUT OF THIS MARRIAGE ASAP. And you're not letting her talk you into staying/trying/whatever. If not for yourself, do it for your son. He should not grow up in an environment like this where he can't relax and be himself and be loved and treasured for who he is, no matter how much you love your wife. She can find someone else to love her. She will be fine.

Take what you've learned from this relationship and find an and adult capable of being loved and loving you back. And take what you learned from your first marriage and be sure to discuss things of concern early on. Dang, your life could be SO much happier. (Even if you stay single for some time and just enjoy your children and friends.)
That is the exact behavior I get. The pouting, the displeasure, the crabbiness. Not outright saying I can't or she doesn't want me to, but everything else tells me, without a doubt.

I had a conversation with my daughter last night (12) and she told me she wishes we would have moved last fall when I attempted to separate from my wife. I asked her if she'd be happier if it were just her, her brother and I and her answer was yes. So yes, I am getting out. It's just a matter of putting together an exit plan now.
 

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Discussion Starter #74
That is because her anger is not genuine anger at something you have done. It is a manipulation to get something from you -- a concession? Drama? Attention? who knows, but "anger" is the tool her subconscious knows to use. So when a little anger doesn't get her what she wants, she just digs in and doubles down.

When a person is genuinely angry at something, time and space helps them calm down and gain objectivity.

You say she hasn't been diagnosed bi-polar or anything like that. Are you familiar with Narcissistic personality disorder? If not, read up on it a bit. She may be a narcissist. If she is, the only thing you can do to solve it is leave and save yourself because a narcissist is basically impossible to have a good relationship with but they have no desire to change who they are because from their perspective there is no problem.
I've told her for a while now that I believe she uses her anger as a tool and a weapon to get her way and to make sure everybody is doing what she wants. She uses it as a control mechanism and I've recognized that for a while now. She will never cop to that, she will never say that that is truly what is happening and gets upset even at the mention of that.

I'm very familiar with NPD. My first wife was borderline narcissistic, but that's a whole 'nother thread lol.
 

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Discussion Starter #75
Take what you've learned from this relationship and find an and adult capable of being loved and loving you back. And take what you learned from your first marriage and be sure to discuss things of concern early on. Dang, your life could be SO much happier. (Even if you stay single for some time and just enjoy your children and friends.)
My plan is to stay single and enjoy my friends as much as I possibly can. That is a mistake the first time around and it will not be made again.
 

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HIT,

One other thing bothering me, her kids are older than yours, at some point they may become an extension of their mother and start abusing your kids emotionally, possibly violently or sexually. Can your kids stay with your exW or parents while you exit?

GET OUT, there is no 5 year plan, or 10 or 20 with this woman unless you want to die from stress in 10 years.

Totalitarianism died out except for North Korea and your wife.
 

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I'm sure it contributed to why the first marriage didn't go well, yes. Along with other problems. They were just not a good fit in many areas overall.

MC seemed like an exercise in futility at the time, and looking back, still feels that way. Very little was gained. My wife had a hard time seeing where she could be wrong, even after being faced with it point blank by a professional.

She tells me she believes she's gotten all the help she feels like she needs. I'm sure I could use a little help too. The one IC I saw that I actually liked and saw as a fit, she got upset about me seeing because he wasn't a Christian and she felt as if he was actively trying to get me out of the marriage because he saw smoke and fire.
Let's say that everything you have said is as true and unbiased are you could possibly tell us what is going on.

I think it would follow that most of the advice, which is to admit it won't work, and move on is correct.

I think what you said in this post is quite telling and to me, it basically tells you what you already know and why you need to end it.

But when you have a counselor at whatever level, telling you that you are wrong, and you don't even entertain the idea that they may have a point, that kind of tells you where you are at.

Not that a therapist can't be wrong, because they often are, but then to heap on the fact that she is a professed Christian, and she has these issues with abuse of her husband, and children in the house, not to mention the disrespect overall....

Brother she has issues, big huge gaping issues, that you will never ever be able to fix.

It is time to get out of this marriage, it is bad for you...

And try to figure out how you got with a woman like this in the first place and don't ever do it again.
 

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Maybe I'm scared? I don't know. I've thought about it endlessly lately. I'm scared to put the kids through one more big life change. I guess maybe I should look at a change like that as a positive for them, and not a negative. Maybe that would help.
You've already at the very least seriously scared them with your fights. I don't see the benefit of staying because they'll have to go through another divorce. They'll probably be happy to see the last of her.
 

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Discussion Starter #79
HIT,

One other thing bothering me, her kids are older than yours, at some point they may become an extension of their mother and start abusing your kids emotionally, possibly violently or sexually. Can your kids stay with your exW or parents while you exit?

GET OUT, there is no 5 year plan, or 10 or 20 with this woman unless you want to die from stress in 10 years.

Totalitarianism died out except for North Korea and your wife.
Oh no, I'm talking short term plan. Within the next couple of days while my kids are at their mother's house anyway, and her kids are at their father's house. I already have a place to go and stay for a bit.
 
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