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HiT,

Why not move out and then if she chooses to divorce - accept that for the lack of commitment it is.
Maybe I'm scared? I don't know. I've thought about it endlessly lately. I'm scared to put the kids through one more big life change. I guess maybe I should look at a change like that as a positive for them, and not a negative. Maybe that would help.
It's ok to be scared... what is not ok is to live scared.

I am not a big believer in separation generally unless divorce is the target, and then it is only to get your mind right for the challenges ahead.

Toxic incompatibility will never be without the loss of respect, the need for projection, the belittling of value, the loss of compassion and empathy.

There is fear and there is danger... I think you are drifting to the latter.

Walls or not, you are letting her set all the boundaries... what are yours?

Transcend your fears... you will not move in the right direction until you do.
 

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Discussion Starter #43
It's ok to be scared... what is not ok is to live scared.

I am not a big believer in separation generally unless divorce is the target, and then it is only to get you mind right for the challenges ahead.
I can definitely see your take on separation. There are so many outlooks on this one subject. The fact is, I can pick out a handful of situations, times in our relationship that I feel like I should have left and started proceedings and just didn't out of probably a number of reasons why.
 

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I can definitely see your take on separation. There are so many outlooks on this one subject. The fact is, I can pick out a handful of situations, times in our relationship that I feel like I should have left and started proceedings and just didn't out of probably a number of reasons why.
What are those reasons why you didn't?
 

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No, I don't. It's breaking my heart.
It's really sad, especially if you love this woman-or thought you did. But this is YOUR life and you do not have to let another person reduce you to something less than yourself. You KNOW this woman is not good for you or your family. It's up to YOU to take control back over yourself and your life so that YOU are not a man who yells and screams and throws things and subjects his children to a home with a woman who is unkind to them (and their father).

It took me 50 years to realize this but a relationship is much more than how much you love someone else. It is also how you work together. How you feel about yourself when you're with the other person. Also, I haven't read you saying this, but if part of you is wanting to hang on just to avoid admitting defeat or not be embarrassed that everyone will know your second marriage failed, get over that. Other people are interested in themselves, not keeping a scoreboard over your life. This marriage is NOT going to work out, so why not end the pain and mitigate the financial damage ASAP. Don't become someone you don't want to be because of what others might or might not think.
 

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It's really sad, especially if you love this woman-or thought you did. But this is YOUR life and you do not have to let another person reduce you to something less than yourself. You KNOW this woman is not good for you or your family. It's up to YOU to take control back over yourself and your life so that YOU are not a man who yells and screams and throws things and subjects his children to a home with a woman who is unkind to them (and their father).

It took me 50 years to realize this but a relationship is much more than how much you love someone else. It is also how you work together. How you feel about yourself when you're with the other person. Also, I haven't read you saying this, but if part of you is wanting to hang on just to avoid admitting defeat or not be embarrassed that everyone will know your second marriage failed, get over that. Other people are interested in themselves, not keeping a scoreboard over your life. This marriage is NOT going to work out, so why not end the pain and mitigate the financial damage ASAP. Don't become someone you don't want to be because of what others might or might not think.
Of course I love her. I probably always will in my own ways either way this thing goes. But I've always known love cannot be enough. There is so much more that pours into this situation from all sides. A huge part of my problem is how I feel about myself when I'm with my wife.

It's amazing...there aren't very many times when I'm home, or anywhere for that matter, alone with my 2 children and nobody else, but those are my very favorite times in my life right now and have been for quite some time. I think that is a good barometer to where these problems have led me and us.
 

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I get all of your reasons... but what is the reality in each?

I was married for 28 years, together for 30 in a toxically incompatible relationship trying to do the right thing, fight the right fight, struggle through the right struggle... it got so bad that my ex called me a martyr when I told her I was doing all these for her and in a moment of letting her control my emotions told her she was right, I was saving some other poor man from having to deal with this.

Not my proudest moment in many ways and in the end when she as done with all I had to offer she did what was ultimately best for us both and offered a divorce where she quit what I was not willing to.

Your children will appreciate you relieving them from all this conflict around you... they will understand your actions of loving them in ways that will bond you for the rest of your life. Some changes are simply necessary...

That was my third marriage... 3 months after my divorce I was offered a chance to be a great date and am now married (yes, my fourth) to one who loves, honors, and respects all that another could not... and I her.

Stigma be damned... I would have missed a wonderful thing if I believed in them so do not let them stop you from mindful greatness as you will find yourself worrying too much about what other's think.

Learn these lessons... know why this was not the right thing in your life as these lessons do not leave us until they are learned. Once you learn and bring forth this good baggage you will begin to be able to observe the "Right Understanding" -Am I seeing what’s really there or what I want to see?

It will not be without pain, but growth and the right change often isn't.

Courage my friend... peace is not guaranteed but you will be in a much better place to attain it when you are done.
 

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What kills me about last night is that he could clearly hear from his bedroom upstairs what she was angrily saying about it. The kids were excited to watch a movie after chores were done, and after she talked, confronted, whatever...me about the chore that wasn't done to her satisfaction, he all of a sudden wanted nothing to do with coming down to watch the movie with us. He spent the rest of the night upstairs in his room by himself after not seeing me all day long as I was at work. We have the kind of relationship where I'm lucky enough to still be his hero-figure at his 9 years old. I just wanted to cry.
It is clear he's being negatively impacted by her behavior. He's just a kid and doesn't have the life experience to put her behavior in context. To him, the family is his whole world and this is the world he knows. Things have to change in a big way and in a hurry for this not to make a permanent impact on who he is and how he thinks of himself.
 

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I think that when you are completely out of love with her, you will leave. It sounds like she is killing whatever love you have. The time will come when you are just past it and then she won't have any say on whether you separate. I would make this clear to her. Either serious change now or separation/divorce.
 

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I think that when you are completely out of love with her, you will leave. It sounds like she is killing whatever love you have. The time will come when you are just past it and then she won't have any say on whether you separate. I would make this clear to her. Either serious change now or separation/divorce.
I think leaving only when he is "completely" out of love with her is a bad idea.

His child is being harmed by this toxic person. It may be the damage she has already done will have a permanent effect on him in some way.

I'm advocating for the child here. Get him out of this environment.
 

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I think leaving only when he is "completely" out of love with her is a bad idea.

His child is being harmed by this toxic person. It may be the damage she has already done will have a permanent effect on him in some way.

I'm advocating for the child here. Get him out of this environment.
I'm not saying that that is what he should do. I am saying that that is what will happen if he doesn't do something affirmative for himself now. All of the arguments he now marshals against leaving will be irrelevant when he's done. None of those arguments will matter. He will just be done. Why not tell her now and instigate the separation?
 

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Discussion Starter #53
I'm not saying that that is what he should do. I am saying that that is what will happen if he doesn't do something affirmative for himself now. All of the arguments he now marshals against leaving will be irrelevant when he's done. None of those arguments will matter. He will just be done. Why not tell her now and instigate the separation?
I understand this completely. Those reasons are all quickly fading as it is. I'm starting to feel the loss of emotional connection, care about the things I'm supposed to be caring about. Every single day is something new she is not happy about. Every. Single. Day.
 

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Of course I love her. I probably always will in my own ways either way this thing goes. But I've always known love cannot be enough. There is so much more that pours into this situation from all sides. A huge part of my problem is how I feel about myself when I'm with my wife.

It's amazing...there aren't very many times when I'm home, or anywhere for that matter, alone with my 2 children and nobody else, but those are my very favorite times in my life right now and have been for quite some time. I think that is a good barometer to where these problems have led me and us.
My ex and I didn't have the volatile conflict you two have but he was constantly belittling me. Like it was a joke/sarcasm, but at some point it really wears on you. Anyhow, I had a couple different friends who I love being around say to me, at different times "I love being around you because I always feel good about myself when I'm with your for some reason." And I realized I felt the same way around them. They I realized I felt BAD about myself -- uncertain, insecure, too loud, too happy, too ditzy, too SOMETHING when I was with my Husband. And I didn't like the person I was becoming either -- critical, sensitive, cold, etc. We got divorced and it's like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders and heart.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
My ex and I didn't have the volatile conflict you two have but he was constantly belittling me. Like it was a joke/sarcasm, but at some point it really wears on you. Anyhow, I had a couple different friends who I love being around say to me, at different times "I love being around you because I always feel good about myself when I'm with your for some reason." And I realized I felt the same way around them. They I realized I felt BAD about myself -- uncertain, insecure, too loud, too happy, too ditzy, too SOMETHING when I was with my Husband. And I didn't like the person I was becoming either -- critical, sensitive, cold, etc. We got divorced and it's like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders and heart.
That light feeling is what I have been chasing for far too long now. I feel that pressure every single day. It feels like an elephant standing on my chest or my heart placed in a vice and squeezed. A few weeks ago, I got the chance to attend a baseball game with a friend of mine and his wife that I was friends with before my first divorce, but there were only enough tickets for me to attend, without my wife. I had a very clear picture of what that light feeling looks like that night. I had the best night I had had for longer than I could remember. It gave me a feeling almost as if the boss was off duty, and that is very sad to me. I didn't have to edit what I'd say, I didn't have to worry about making a silly, stupid, maybe offbeat comment. Nothing. I had no worries and it was the most carefree I had felt in I don't know how long.
 

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That light feeling is what I have been chasing for far too long now. I feel that pressure every single day. It feels like an elephant standing on my chest or my heart placed in a vice and squeezed. A few weeks ago, I got the chance to attend a baseball game with a friend of mine and his wife that I was friends with before my first divorce, but there were only enough tickets for me to attend, without my wife. I had a very clear picture of what that light feeling looks like that night. I had the best night I had had for longer than I could remember. It gave me a feeling almost as if the boss was off duty, and that is very sad to me. I didn't have to edit what I'd say, I didn't have to worry about making a silly, stupid, maybe offbeat comment. Nothing. I had no worries and it was the most carefree I had felt in I don't know how long.
Yep. And your friends liked you because you are you, quirks and all, and you felt the same way about them.

My ex wanted nothing to do with my family. Or any friends I had before I knew him. To my shame, I let him isolate me from my friends and family because I felt I was a bad wife if I pushed him to be around people he didn't want to be around or if I went to see them without him. At some point - after at least 15 years of the distancing - I got a hold of my self and realized I should not let him stop me from having people I loved and cared about in my life and I started going to family gatherings without him.

The worst possible thing for our marriage happened. I thought I would feel lonely and self conscious without him there -- everyone else's spouse was there, but instead I had MORE FUN without him than I ever could have had with himEveryone was just COMFORTABLE and I felt like I could BE MYSELF, and that was suddenly a GOOD thing. I could enjoy my family and friends without his judgments and displeasure and disapproval and sulky attitude that he wanted to be ANYWHERE but there with THOSE losers...

Here is a good song for you to listen to:

I also have a new boyfriend and it is just SO DIFFERENT to be with an emotionally healthy person. There is no tension. No drama. My ex would say "You have this fantasy that someone or something somewhere else is going to make you happy and it's just all in your head, you should not compare yourself to other people." Well guess what? I wasn't happy then and I am happy now. If that's all in my head, who cares? I'm too happy and carefree to worry about it. :)
 

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How about next time she gets in your face about something, just calmly say "I don't deserve this and will no longer be talked to in this fashion. If you want to TALK, we can talk, but this isn't talking" Then get up and go into a different room.
If she comes after you, make sure the room has a lock.

Give her 1/2 hour to calm down. If that doesn't work, next time make it an hour. THen 1.5 hours. If it takes longer than that, then you REALLY need to consider if this is something you want to continue living with.
 

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After behavior like this for much of our relationship...my wife wonders why my son doesn't like to come out of his bedroom when I'm at work and it's only my wife and the kids home.
She KNOWS why he doesn't want to be around her, nobody is that dense.

She's an emotional terrorist/vampire.

Some people get off on controlling the emotions of others.....why does is seem it's never to make others happy, only sad??

Deep down you know the right thing to do.

Like another person said upstream, ''stigma be damned''
 

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People often say that other people can't make you happy. You are in charge of your own happiness.

To this, I say, 'fair enough,' but other people can certainly make you unhappy. Your recourse in that case is often to simply get away from those who cause the unhappiness.

If you stick with this thread, you will likely more and more come to terms with the idea of separation. She doesn't get a veto. You can separate. If divorce follows, well, then it follows.

Life is too short to live the way you are living.
 
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