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there is no right answer if you count in the marriages that are in name only ,
there is even different stages of cheating ,
types of cheating
 

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Long term? I don't know. Short term? Yes. It's called self control.

The real deal here is that we need to work with biology. For example, a woman might say "I found this great guy and I have warm feelings for him, but I am not very sexually attracted to him. However, I can see building a life with this man!" And then that woman might become more emotionally attached to the man, marry him, realize her sexual and related psychological needs aren't being met, and be tempted to cheat. Why? Because she wants both that warm, caring, stable relationship with her husband and sex that truly satisfies her mind and body. Trick is to work with biology and NOT get involved with someone you're only mildly sexually attracted to in the first place. Hold out for that best friend you want to jump every chance you get because their very way of being turns you on. Sadly, too many settle and then they or their spouses are on the internet wondering wtf because they're in a deadbedroom or someone cheated.



I'm going to level with you. Women don't want to explain to a man how to be masculine. First, we tend to not want to hurt feelings. Second, if you have to tell a man how to be masculine then there is a certain inauthenticity about it. So, a lot of women think it must be best to try to accept as-is and/or hope for spontaneous change
That is where society has come in. They have neutered tge men to a large degree. Masculine is a bad trait. Stop the football and hockey as it leads to violence against women, blah blah blah BS. Men neet to be sweet and kiss womens ass all the time, that is what women truely want and love blah blah blah. When they get a man that treats them that way they start looking for the azzhole studmuffin guys to scratch their itch because their hubby is a weak azz wuss in their eyes because he acts how society tells him he should act toward his wife.

I gave my son, 20, a copy of NMMNG last year when he moved in with his fiancee.
 

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I knew a couple now both dead where the wife basically stopped having sex after their children were born. He had served his purpose basically.
She threw him out of the bedroom. She said decades later that she thinks he may have cheated which sort of didn't surprise me really. They were of a generation where you just didn't divorce and in a sense I could sort of understand his affair if indeed he had one.
He cheated before she kicked him out of the bedroom or after? My god.
 

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I'm not sure if i framed the question correctly; but the premise of it is, after reading the first few chapters of MMSLP, is that basically if the husband is now exhibiting alpha qualities and is only serving as the provider, the woman will wonder off to someone else.

A lot of this resonates with myself as I'm dealing with a WW right now.

I guess my question is, if neither understands the dopamine hormone and the science behind attraction, can you really fight biology? Perhpas the book goes into this later. Sure there is personal accountability and CHOICE in the mix as well...

Another question is how is the woman supposed to bring htis up to the man without him getting defensive about it?

"Hey, i think you're being a bit of a *, you need to be more manly"...etc, haha. It just seems like without having the knowledge books like MMSLP and NMMNG offer, it can be tough for the pre-WW spouses to communicate this to the other.

Does that make sense?
Ok, I have no clue what you're trying to say, but here is my take on cheating. The BS is NEVER at fault. That's like saying the victim of Domestic Violence (DV) is partly to blame for their partner kicking the crap out of them. That doesn't track. You are never responsible for the behavior of the other person.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Lol, sorry everyone. I was rambling a bit. Despite my OP not making much sense; you all have seemed to answer what i was looking for.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
In my opinion it's a deep philosophical question. Stand by for a lecture. I understand the position of the many who have posted "100%", and they are right. We have to take responsibility for our actions. It's what the whole of our society is built on. If we start saying "hormones did it", and there's no free will, then there is no basis for laws, for contracts. If someone comes up and punches you in the face, they can't be punished, because hormones, and "they were angry and they can't help it". I've had clients tell me that.

At the same time, humans are also animals. I'd make the analogy with obesity. Scientists and doctors tend (not always, but tend) to view humans like lab animals. You give them this kind of chow, they get fat. You give them different chow, and make them run on a treadmill before they get food, then they don't get fat. The humans are basically 100% driven by their environment. "Willpower" is simply not a thing. And in a society where a particular behaviour is regarded as meritful, people will tend to do it. They may think it's their choice, but to an observer it looks entirely environment-driven. If eating confectionery all day every day is a socially acceptable thing, a lot of people will be fat. If eating tide pods is "cool" then, amazingly, children will do it. Or try to.

It looks to me like if we were simply driven by our rational minds and not hormones, very few people would choose to have children, for example. Leave that to other people.

So we are this tricky mixture: a rational mind, perilously perched on top of an animal system over which we have very little control. Usually the best we can do is to circumvent it by not putting ourselves in the way of temptation, but that's not always easy.

Returning to the original post, it would be an interesting conversation with the wife. "Wife, I forgive you, for you are just a robot driven by hormones, with no free will, no rational agency, and cannot be said to have made a decision about what you did. It's not your fault, it's mine. In recognition of this, I now require you to wear a burqa...."
This is good stuff and very much where I intended to go witht he question. More of a philosophical discussion.
 

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In my opinion 100% of the blame goes to the cheater. Marriage is "for better or for worse." Married people need to have good communication to make things work and talk them out. If there are problems in a marriage its up to both people to work out any and all issues without running to another person. Going to another person solves nothing. It just destroys a marriage beyond repair (in my opinion.)
 

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Yes.

Not at fault for trashing the relationship but taking a cowardly approach. Leave first, then get with a new person.
Cowardly sure but I am firmly in his camp after all this. Yeah, cheating sucks but it also sucks to spend years with someone while basically ignoring them and saying they are own their own sexually. Should the guy have left before he moved on with some other girl? Sure. Do I blame him for hooking up with that hottie and breaking up with his GF the next day? Nope. Now she's out there hiding her issues from the new guys she is talking to and he has a pretty new GF that likely shows him some affection.
 

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"Hey, i think you're being a bit of a *, you need to be more manly"...etc, haha.
Many a man goes into the marriage with his masculinity intact which slowly fades into the so-called beta nice guy provider trap. Marriage weakens some (many) men in this way and it's something they need to guard against. Men even think women want this while she's gradually losing interest and even she doesn't know why. Nowadays there's a minority of guys who won't fall prey to this weakening affect who stand their ground. Meaning they won't go, nice guy.

Again - I've said it many a time as have others --- Men are socially conditioned into this kind of weak behavior. Movies (the good old romantic comedy), tv (hallmark and disney/Christmas nonsense), religion, education and so on. One guy commenting on youtube summed it up when he wrote, "Women like Disney, but men believe it".

Dealing with woman is often an exercise in psychology. Everything your clergyman forgot to mention.
It's having the insight and work too.... but when you get it right you get the payoff. Most guys are oblivious to these issues. Instead, they follow the hallmark romantic drivil playbook and think flowers have some magic.
 

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cheating is wrong , even if your going for divorce ,

if there is problems in your relationship fix them or find an exceptable way around them or get out and start over , don't start over before it is over , it is not fair to the person your cheating with sometimes they go along with it but that does not make it right ,

cheating is called cheating for a reason ,
 

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I'm not sure if i framed the question correctly; but the premise of it is, after reading the first few chapters of MMSLP, is that basically if the husband is now exhibiting alpha qualities and is only serving as the provider, the woman will wonder off to someone else.

A lot of this resonates with myself as I'm dealing with a WW right now.

I guess my question is, if neither understands the dopamine hormone and the science behind attraction, can you really fight biology? Perhpas the book goes into this later. Sure there is personal accountability and CHOICE in the mix as well...

Another question is how is the woman supposed to bring htis up to the man without him getting defensive about it?

"Hey, i think you're being a bit of a *, you need to be more manly"...etc, haha. It just seems like without having the knowledge books like MMSLP and NMMNG offer, it can be tough for the pre-WW spouses to communicate this to the other.

Does that make sense?
To the title, IMO the blame is 100% on the wayward. Oh, they will try to shift the blame all day long, "I cheated because my spouse xyz or didnt abc or started doing efg or stopped doing hij. All BS. All reationalizing the cheater's shytee behavior. Long thread on TAM with about 3/4 of it the cheater explaining why its mostly fault of the BS. And lotta TAM folks right in there singing the same song. Or the recent NetFlix glamorizing and trying to normalize cheating.

And all of these books about how to become whatever you aren't just to keep the spouse from cheating seems a waste of time to me. If the marriage has reached that point it is already too late. They will find some excuse because they have an itch you aren't scratching.

If the marriage has gone south to point where one or the other considers cheating, just be man or woman enough to tell the spouse it is over, file for divorce and go get jollies where ever think you can. If woman wants an alpha and she has domesticated hubby to where he is a beta, then divorce hubby and go hang out with the gym rats. If man wants a porn star, go hang out at the strip clubs and see how much interest you can drum up.

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I'm not sure if i framed the question correctly; but the premise of it is, after reading the first few chapters of MMSLP, is that basically if the husband is now exhibiting alpha qualities and is only serving as the provider, the woman will wonder off to someone else.

A lot of this resonates with myself as I'm dealing with a WW right now.

I guess my question is, if neither understands the dopamine hormone and the science behind attraction, can you really fight biology? Perhpas the book goes into this later. Sure there is personal accountability and CHOICE in the mix as well...

Another question is how is the woman supposed to bring htis up to the man without him getting defensive about it?

"Hey, i think you're being a bit of a *, you need to be more manly"...etc, haha. It just seems like without having the knowledge books like MMSLP and NMMNG offer, it can be tough for the pre-WW spouses to communicate this to the other.

Does that make sense?
I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding exactly what you are asking, but I will try to make a stab at what I think you may be getting at.

I think we all have agency, autonomy and free will and are able to make conscious decisions on our actions.

However we are still creatures of the earth and still have millions of years of instinctual, biological programming that do influence our thoughts and feelings.

Make no mistake, the cheater chooses to cheat. Many times they even have to work hard and put in quite a bit of time and energy and mental gymnastics to do it. But it is a free will choice.

However a lot of things can factor in to that decision and create an environment for which they believe that be their best option..... even if they are mistaken.

I do not believe in blaming the BS. However the BS also has free will and also makes choices and their choices and decisions will effect the environment of the relationship.

As an example - If a BS has been chronically rejecting and hasn't touched the WS in years and doesn't want anything to do with them other than the domestic support and child rearing services they provide, they can't be shocked and surprised or have the right to point fingers if the WS develops feelings and ultimately has contact with someone else.

Yes we can sit and say that the WS could have discussed their feelings and frustrations (which 99.999% of them do) and yes, the WS could have ended the relationship prior to making contact with someone else.

BUT THE BS COULD HAVE ENDED THE RELATIONSHIP AND COULD HAVE ADDRESSED THEIR LACK OF SEXUAL INTERACTION TOO.

I can't for the life of me understand why someone would even want to be with someone they were not sexually attracted to but that's for another discussion. My point is the BS also has agency and free choice and their choices will also effect the state of the relationship.

There are certain things where your actions will effect a relationship to the point where continued marriage and fidelity can not longer be expected.

If you are mean and abusive and intentionally inflict pain and torment on your spouse - you can't expect them to remain in that relationship forever.

If you are a druggie or an alcoholic, you cannot expect them to be an enabler and stay with you forever.

If you are a man and you are lazy and shiftless and chronically unemployed/underemployed, you cannot expect a woman to remain in a relationship forever.

If you are a woman and you gain 100lbs, buzz your hair and paint it blue and spend your days laying around the house in sweat pants grazing on candy and junk food, and your husband remains fit and vigorous and ambitious you can't expect him to remain with your fat azz forever.

And man or woman, if you reject and refuse to try to meet your partner's needs chronically and indefinitely, you can't expect them to remain sexually exclusive on to you forever.

Yes, perhaps the "right" way is for them to break up with you first. But you could have broken up with them as well before cutting them off if you no longer wanted a sex life with them. But the point I want to make here is you're simply taking your chances on whether they will do the 100% "right" thing or not. If you haven't touched your spouse in a year or more and refuse to address it, you're simply taking your chances and all bets are off.

cont....
 

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cont...

Now that all being said, many WSs are simply shytheads and are of low character and are selfish A-holes.

The decision to cheat is on them.

If a BS is sane, sober, putting in good faith effort to maintain a healthy and happy relationship and doing their due diligence to be a good partner, then it's truly on the WS and a reflection and testiment of their character.

But we all have to recognize that all of our choices and decisions and behaviors contribute to the environment of the relationship.

And our choices and decisions and actions are influenced by our environment.

There are no guarantees. There are no guarantees that even if you do 100% the right things that we won't be cheated on or won't get abandoned along the side of the road in the middle of nowhere. But there are certain things we can do that will make those scenarios so much more likely that we would be naive fool to think that it wouldn't happen to us.

I'm a guy, and I know if I sit around the house playing video games and eating Cheetos all day and put on a ton of weight and decide I don't want to work and bring in an income anymore and don't want to talk to my wife or touch her or try to meet her needs anymore,, I can not expect her to keep other penises out of her jay-jay forever.

"Should" she leave me first??? Yeah probably. That would probably be the by-the-book thing to do. But given those conditions and that environment, do I have the right to expect things will be conducted by the book??
 

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Let me condense that all down - all of our actions and behaviors are a choice. The cheater owns their choice to cheat 100%.

But the choices we make can be influenced and motivated by our feelings and desires.

And our feelings and desires are influenced by natural processes that go back millions of years of our evolution.

If we choose to ignore and disregard those natural processes and natural instincts that influence people’s desire, we take that risk.

If we gain 100lbs, we take the risk of our partner loosing attraction to us.

If we disregard and neglect their needs, we take that risk.

If we become feminized as a man or masculinized as a woman, we take that risk.
 

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Book are written to make money.

The betrayed spouse is never at fault for the wayward spouse cheating.

The cheater had the choice to either fix the relationship or leave it. They never have to cheat.

The biggest part is a lack of morals. People are told to do what makes them fill good. They deserve to be happy. This is true, just end the relationship before you find someone else to make you happy.
How does the cheater fix it when a marriage is supposed to be 50/50. The affair is a result of the problem within the marriage. Yes, worst choice ever in thinking that will make things better. But I myself after years of trying to talk to my husband, I did the unthinkable that I never imagined I would do. Wrong and I take full responsibility but at some point my spouse has to want to help the marriage along as much as I do or we say, it is time to get out.
 

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It wasn't so much that I was saying it is the BS fault...but more of "science's" fault possibly?
Look at it this way, the decision to cheat is 100% on the cheater, as many have said. This is true.

BUT, if a man isn’t leading his marriage and maintaining excitement and strong, masculine energy in his marriage, he’s putting himself at an elevated risk of being cheated on. It may not be his “fault” but in many cases, he didn’t do his due diligence to decrease the risk.
 

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A betrayed spouse can contribute to a ****ty marriage. But how one deals with issues is important, and one whose answer is to cheat is not good partner material.

Not much different then one who beats their spouse up during an argument....how you deal with arguments is important.

But I also think most people are capable of cheating under the right circumstances which is why I have little tolerance for poor boundaries. This was a big issue with my ex and it turned out he had one of his ex gf's on the side.
 
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