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I already said I'm not looking to change society, I merely live in it.
I'm with you @Broken at 20. When I had a car and lived in the mid-west, I can think of 2 occassions in which walked me to my car after a party. I was later accused of going with him to get my brains ****ed out.

On another occasion, I was at a private party and one of the guests who was foreign told me he was going to get home by metro. The had already closed by then and I offered him a ride home. I saw the host a week somewhere and he was making vague statements that added up to "yeah, did you have a good time with him, wink wink." I gave the perplexed look thinking that I had saved him possible from an unwanted over night guest.

But there you go, I've learned to accept that managing the optics because people will hump to conclusions.
 

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My ex would sometimes make the same claim that buying or cooking meals was something she appreciated. The actual improvement in her attitude and/or our relationship often lasted long enough for me to finish cleaning up after supper and putting the leftovers in the fridge or walking back to the car. I cooked or bought nearly all of the meals during the time we lived together. None of the thousands of meals provided to the ex really mattered and the next meal I provide to someone else probably won't matter either regardless of what they may claim otherwise.

Weighed against two decades of experience, 18 pages of comments is pretty unconvincing.

The expense really isn't important either. Since the ex moved out and we (the kids and I) don't eat out a couple times a week, I save almost $100 a week from the combined food expenses.
 

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Untrue.

Some dates are $100 plus for a nice dinner.

Some people have shared that the dynamic of who pays on a first date can completely influence what they think going forward, and these people do not seem high strung and yes have been in long term relationships or marriages.
I'll say this.
Anyone who drops a hundo plus on a first date IMO is a pretentious clown.
The purpose of the first date or two (at least) is to determine interest and explore possibilities.
That is best accomplished by meeting for coffee, drinks, and other low or no cost activities such as that.
That's why I made the comment I did about how I deal with women who insist to pay their way on the first date. This type of activity does not merit that kind of response. I found that such a policy served as a useful tool in the vetting process.
My feeling on relationships was (and is) I want a woman that wants to be with me, not with my wallet.
In my life, I have turned down two marriage proposals (from women), an offer to shack up, been engaged twice, and married once.
The woman that I have spent the last 28 years with and I will be celebrating our 26th wedding anniversary tomorrow.
Never dropping a hundo plus on a first date worked for me.
 

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I didn't date much in my tender years. Frankly, I was too busy partying in gay clubs. (I'm straight--alot of my friends were gay so you could see how the environment wasn't conducive for dating). Some ONS were involved but not alot of "dates" per se. Sorry, I don't really have an answer for you on that one.
So far only read some of the thread... and your comment here made me smile inside. Instantly took me back to a couple of clubs that I loved 'back in the day'. And the drag shows..! Around aged 17 (or a bit younger), is when my self-imposed rules were developed; such as friend and I were always to go home together and I didn't let guys buy me drinks. Sifting through the dusty, old memories, one that came to mind was locking eyes with a guy as he approached me. Chemistry. He started talking to impress, and I signalled that he didn't need to talk. How rude! That wasn't typical for me. We were kissing each others faces off. At some point, he had me kinda positioned up against a shelf in the bar, and when taking a breath, I glanced over his shoulder. A guy I had crushed on for a couple of years was a short distance away. And the most vivid part of that memory, was his surprised reaction saying, 'WHOA... Hearts!' Anyway, young self-imposed rule enforced, went home with my friend, not Mr Chemistry... plus we had school the next day, ahem. Clubbing aside, I'm stroking my (chin) whiskers and considering dates in the 90s. Of the few, I don't remember going dutch, despite offering. With Batman, we had talked a few times on the phone, before seeing one another at a club where we kissed and danced and... gasp... talked..! I was pretty smitten. He called the next day to line up our first date; arranged to meet at a nice cafe for lunch. I offered to pay, he took care of it. The date continued past lunch to hanging out, running errands, then dinner and a movie.

I am typically a fan of chivalry. I've mentioned before, that even friends and I are quite 'chivalrous' with one another. I connect it with consideration. Such as having a drink they'd like at the ready for when they arrive (sometimes), or saying 'this is on me..' without keeping tabs. Or better yet, my all time favorite which I learned from Batman, is the old taking care of payment without your guest realizing. Sometimes Batman and I will do this with each other... even though our money is shared. Settle the bill on the way to the restroom and return to the table without saying anything. I'm not sure I quite agree or understand about the cost of women getting ready and such, as I wear makeup typically in daily life anyway, hair pretty much the same, however, given I was single back when we still used pay-phones and taxis, I'm likely unqualified to comment!
 

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So, you give sex more easily to those you don't care about, but expect those you do care about to wait some arbitrary length of time because....feelings?

And I'm supposed to feel special about this because...why? Like, I don't understand.

As a guy, this does not compute.
I agree with you. Back in the olden days, like the '70s, women were concerned with that information getting around. But being a message board junkie and talking around, I get the impression that if a guy is aware of a woman's activities, then he adjusts accordingly.

I think the mirror image issue here is how much a guy spends on his date. if you look up some of my posts, i discuss the frustration that
i had with my second husband while dating. He had a so called friend for whom, I found out he was paying for more things for her than he was for me. And guess what, it was also during that he knew she had a boyfriend. WTF, I'm glad we got that straight before marriage.

But one problem I see with a woman refusing sex before marriage, is that the guy is going to have reckon with the possibility that the relationship will not get to marriage; you two break up and then you find out she's having sex with someone else.

I certainly would never accept a relationship in which I was expected to pay 50/50 for everything. This issue was dealt with in the movie The Joy Luck Club. If we break up and I find out he's wining and dining someone else ...... what a waste for me.

We all need to protect ourselves and not blindly acquiesce to other people's values. I think at the time of exclusivity is a good time to start having sex. For women, I can think of 2 good reasons to have sex. One, to avoid a guy who is still in the closet. And two) to avoid a guy who is using you to make another woman jealous. ie Well, at least I wasn't using you for sex. Well, time is valuable, too.
 

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Yes, I'm sure it's just my problem. 😂

All the nuance is ridiculous and means absolutely nothing, but feel free to divide it up and define it however you like - one night stand, 'dating', friends with benefits, **** buddy, etc.

I mean, the goal for you is to have sex as quickly as possible without any responsibility, commitments or obligations, right?

Carry on!
Firstly, you know there is a difference in all those things, right? Like, you know ONS =/= FWB? Not whether or not you think I treat them different, but that you understand those are all different things.

Secondly, part of my end goal is always sex. That's why I ask said female out on a date. Why would I date someone whom I felt no sexual attraction?
But at other times of the year, there might be something else I am looking for. Right now I'm not looking for more, because I am busy between work/gym/hobby. When dating or wanting to go exclusive, I think both partners should have the time to place that person highly on the priority list so they don't feel like they're the third wheel to something else (for me football, for others, I imagine work or maybe friends?). Therefore, since I currently can't provide someone the same amount of time/attention I would expect from them, I am not looking to date seriously now.

In a few months, that will change as the holidays roll around. And then I can give whoever I am interested in more time and effort in said dates, assuming I find someone.

Mods, I got a warning. Any other warning being issued here? Or can the feminists just run amuck?
I got no warning.

Probably because I got the mods to laugh! (You don't have to admit it, we'll both just know you laughed and liked me more)
Unless I get a warning after this posting.

And again....what did you expect?

You and I probably think a lot alike, and agree on this issue, and probably several others.
The major difference is you would like things to change in a way that you think is for the better, where as I simply accept that this is the way the world operates and adapt to it so I can have more success than if I just wished for things to be different. And if you expected an online forum that isn't associated with anything Red Pill related to have open arms and accept what you think/say....I dare say, for someone (that I assume) older than me, you're very naive.
 

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Firstly, you know there is a difference in all those things, right? Like, you know ONS =/= FWB? Not whether or not you think I treat them different, but that you understand those are all different things.

Secondly, part of my end goal is always sex. That's why I ask said female out on a date. Why would I date someone whom I felt no sexual attraction?
But at other times of the year, there might be something else I am looking for. Right now I'm not looking for more, because I am busy between work/gym/hobby. When dating or wanting to go exclusive, I think both partners should have the time to place that person highly on the priority list so they don't feel like they're the third wheel to something else (for me football, for others, I imagine work or maybe friends?). Therefore, since I currently can't provide someone the same amount of time/attention I would expect from them, I am not looking to date seriously now.

In a few months, that will change as the holidays roll around. And then I can give whoever I am interested in more time and effort in said dates, assuming I find someone.



I got no warning.

Probably because I got the mods to laugh! (You don't have to admit it, we'll both just know you laughed and liked me more)
Unless I get a warning after this posting.

And again....what did you expect?

You and I probably think a lot alike, and agree on this issue, and probably several others.
The major difference is you would like things to change in a way that you think is for the better, where as I simply accept that this is the way the world operates and adapt to it so I can have more success than if I just wished for things to be different. And if you expected an online forum that isn't associated with anything Red Pill related to have open arms and accept what you think/say....I dare say, for someone (that I assume) older than me, you're very naive.
Firstly, you know there is a difference in all those things, right? Like, you know ONS =/= FWB? Not whether or not you think I treat them different, but that you understand those are all different things.

Secondly, part of my end goal is always sex. That's why I ask said female out on a date. Why would I date someone whom I felt no sexual attraction?
But at other times of the year, there might be something else I am looking for. Right now I'm not looking for more, because I am busy between work/gym/hobby. When dating or wanting to go exclusive, I think both partners should have the time to place that person highly on the priority list so they don't feel like they're the third wheel to something else (for me football, for others, I imagine work or maybe friends?). Therefore, since I currently can't provide someone the same amount of time/attention I would expect from them, I am not looking to date seriously now.

In a few months, that will change as the holidays roll around. And then I can give whoever I am interested in more time and effort in said dates, assuming I find someone.



I got no warning.

Probably because I got the mods to laugh! (You don't have to admit it, we'll both just know you laughed and liked me more)
Unless I get a warning after this posting.

And again....what did you expect?

You and I probably think a lot alike, and agree on this issue, and probably several others.
The major difference is you would like things to change in a way that you think is for the better, where as I simply accept that this is the way the world operates and adapt to it so I can have more success than if I just wished for things to be different. And if you expected an online forum that isn't associated with anything Red Pill related to have open arms and accept what you think/say....I dare say, for someone (that I assume) older than me, you're very naive.
Firstly, you know there is a difference in all those things, right? Like, you know ONS =/= FWB? Not whether or not you think I treat them different, but that you understand those are all different things.

Secondly, part of my end goal is always sex. That's why I ask said female out on a date. Why would I date someone whom I felt no sexual attraction?
But at other times of the year, there might be something else I am looking for. Right now I'm not looking for more, because I am busy between work/gym/hobby. When dating or wanting to go exclusive, I think both partners should have the time to place that person highly on the priority list so they don't feel like they're the third wheel to something else (for me football, for others, I imagine work or maybe friends?). Therefore, since I currently can't provide someone the same amount of time/attention I would expect from them, I am not looking to date seriously now.

In a few months, that will change as the holidays roll around. And then I can give whoever I am interested in more time and effort in said dates, assuming I find someone.



I got no warning.

Probably because I got the mods to laugh! (You don't have to admit it, we'll both just know you laughed and liked me more)
Unless I get a warning after this posting.

And again....what did you expect?

You and I probably think a lot alike, and agree on this issue, and probably several others.
The major difference is you would like things to change in a way that you think is for the better, where as I simply accept that this is the way the world operates and adapt to it so I can have more success than if I just wished for things to be different. And if you expected an online forum that isn't associated with anything Red Pill related to have open arms and accept what you think/say....I dare say, for someone (that I assume) older than me, you're very naive.
Nah, not naive. I totally understand red pill is not popular within the single female community because it is taking guys off the market, so to speak. I think the last stats I saw showed many more women on dating sites then men. The trend will continue as recently divorced men smarten up. This thread only makes me stronger in my convictions. Yes, we think alike. I’m not trying to change the world and I am probably twice your age. I just know what type of female I will associate with. If there is any hint of female privilege or feminism, I run for the hills. Lol
 

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But when you were in your 20's, does the answer change? Did you go dutch as often, or just let the guy pay? And yes, I know there will be a generational block here.
In college I was even more into splitting checks, we were all on the budget.
 

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I understand that you, and probably the majority, see them as different, and I accept that.

But because the bottom line is the same regardless, I lump all arbitrary categories into one messy pile of absurdity, with marriage being the opposite - and the highest standard.

And yet, our society is so filled with distractions and novelty, I don't think many marriages will survive either.

As a result, individuals will go back to being 'available', moving from person to person, selfishly using one another until they're dissatisfied (which really doesn't seem to take much these days), and then they'll be on the lookout for the next rush.

I don't want to conform to either of those two systems, so I choose to be content on my own. 😌

It's all very fascinating and dystopian, although I do feel quite sad for my adult children.

Sorry for the highjack. 😬

Firstly, you know there is a difference in all those things, right? Like, you know ONS =/= FWB? Not whether or not you think I treat them different, but that you understand those are all different things.
 

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In college I was even more into splitting checks, we were all on the budget.
I paid more often too. But then I noticed that the guy would turn around and pay for other people.

with the counterintuitive ways that men behave, there's way too much motivation to sit on your hands. While women do tit for tat (in a positive way) I pay for you, you can payfor me later, the guys that I have gone out with act as if, well you paid before, you can pay again.
 

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In college I was even more into splitting checks, we were all on the budget.
In college, I was the poor kid on a full scholarship working two jobs to eat and pay rent, at an elite school full of legacies and trust fund kids, so I had no disposable income. So even if I did the asking, the guys usually insisted on paying... with daddy's credit card. But if it was a guy whose financial situation was like mine, then we would go dutch... or be creative so it wouldn't cost anything.
 

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You say I'm complaining, I say pointing about an entitlement attitude. Chicken-egg argument.

Given that I doubt the posters will come to an agreement, let me ask the female posters something. At what point do/have you offered to pay for the drinks, dinner, entertainment, split the bill, etc. ? The second date? The third date? After a few months? Never because he should always pay because he's the man and it's romantic that way? I'm curious if maybe I never reached that expected timeline, or if it ever happens.
Since women are not all of one mind, you will find that each woman goes by her own criteria which can make things confusing.

For example a woman who is looking for a guy to settle down and have children with and she wants to be a SAHM, will look for a man who will pay for just about everything. She's looking for a man who will support her and their children. A guy who is looking for this type of woman is more than happy to pay for everything. They are a very good fit.

Now there are the types of women, usually very good looking young women who don't have much else going for them are looking for some guy to pay for all the dates and wine and dine them because they think they are special. IMHO, this is a type of woman/girl to avoid. But some men enjoy this I suppose.

I don't fit in either of the above categories. I'm not looking to be supported or for 'free meal' type dates. I like to date men who I like and care about. I never 'offer' to pay for anything. If a man asks me out, I expect that he would pay for the date. If I ask him out, I expect to pay for the date. When would I ask a guy out? I don't have a set rule except when it feels right. I also would not go out on more than a couple of dates with a guy who I felt was a bad match. Why waste his time or mine?

Now, I have dated a couple of guys who ever very low income. So sometimes I paid for more things that they did. Or they we'd go to some very low cost places. Also a lot of dates can be things like long walks, hiking, museums, outdoor concerts, dinner at home, etc. The idea is to spend time together, not spend money.
 

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In college, I was the poor kid on a full scholarship working two jobs to eat and pay rent, at an elite school full of legacies and trust fund kids, so I had no disposable income. So even if I did the asking, the guys usually insisted on paying... with daddy's credit card. But if it was a guy whose financial situation was like mine, then we would go dutch... or be creative so it wouldn't cost anything.
Daddy's credit card? Heh. I didn't have any credit card until well after I graduated.

Try Gumby's pizza (which was cheap and excellent, so long as you didn't ask about the sourcing of the ingredients), stretching out the meal plan, or the chinese buffett across from campus. Great tasting food, again, so long as you didn't ask where it came from. Also, you didn't want to use the restroom there, because half the time it was stuffed up with "recycled" chinese food from the weekend before.

Otherwise, I was a classy date ;-).
 

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I go half/half the first few dates......so if you play the game of pretending to reach for your wallet, I will GLADLY wait for you to finish reaching so that we can split the bill.
 

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I go half/half the first few dates......so if you play the game of pretending to reach for your wallet, I will GLADLY wait for you to finish reaching so that we can split the bill.
Do you tell the woman before the date that it's half & half?
 

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Do you tell the woman before the date that it's half & half?
Absolutely....no one likes surprises. I found the more mature older women (35 and over) really appreciated that and may of them went on to be either good friends or more. The one's that had a negative reaction (usually the younger ones...despite all the "strong independent woman" bull*hit).....never went anywhere and was a good way to weed through the good ones and the pure waste of time.
 

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In college, I was the poor kid on a full scholarship working two jobs to eat and pay rent, at an elite school full of legacies and trust fund kids, so I had no disposable income. So even if I did the asking, the guys usually insisted on paying... with daddy's credit card. But if it was a guy whose financial situation was like mine, then we would go dutch... or be creative so it wouldn't cost anything.
The creative dates are among the best... and as Ele suggested... about spending time with one another. When Batman and I were dating, very young, and certainly he isn't from wealth, he was working a job and had a side-hustle at the time. I was working, too. Stand out memory dates though, include him cooking for us, going for picnics.. low cost. However, my view would be if one is asking the other on a date, be prepared to pay. It doesn't mean the other can't offer; but I'd be of the mindset that whoever asks ought to take care of it. If the other insists, then let them.

And then I'll project my bug-bear - which is people who itemize bills. Okay, so if you're going dutch just split it down the middle. Don't itemize who had the steak compared to the salad, the whiskey compared to water, dessert and coffee afterwards or not... whatever... that kind of thing makes my head explode. Just go half and don't keep tabs. If you're hanging with people who would take advantage of this, then consider why you're choosing to be around them.
 

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Stand out memory dates though, include him cooking for us, going for picnics.. low cost.
Back when my wife and I started dating I asked her what time she got up in the morning before work, and then turned up at hers in the AM with a picnic basket full of nice breakfast stuff that I thought would be cool to share.

Likewise the first meal I cooked for my wife back then on one of our earliest dates, was a grilled baby octopus dish at my place.
 
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