[walkingwounded]

Our youngest son (preschooler) is an emotional child. Is really into dolls and traditionally "girlie" stuff.

H has talked in the past about wanting to harden him up before he gets older. So he does not get bullied at school.

The other day we talked about it and I made a comment about how I thought he might be gay as an adult. I had thought it before and it was made probably coming across as slightly lightheartedly, because to me it really is like saying someone has brown hair, or blue eyes. Like an observation if you like.

H is really angry at me. Really dressed me down saying what was wrong with me, and I should never say that about a man's son, and if I had said it about someone else's son they would have knocked me out.

He said it was akin to how I would feel if someone called my daughter a slvt.

I have apologized for upsetting him. I think I kinda get where he is coming from but I think he is going way over the top.

Was I wrong to say that?
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[*LittleDeer*]

Your child may or may not be gay, nothing anyone can do will change that.

My daughter is gay, and I find it insulting that your husband makes such comparisons. It makes no difference to me what my daughter identifies herself as, it doesn't make her less of a person, and it's not something either of you can control.

As for the doll playing, if you study child psychology you will know it doesn't make him gay. He might be going to be a father one day, or a teacher or any number of things. It's normal childhood behaviour.

Does your husband have anger problems? Or unrealistic expectations, or control issues?

 

[betta]

No, I don't think you were wrong to say that. I think it may have been insensitive, but I think you have a lot of other problems to deal with before you even get that far. I think your hubby needs to man up a little bit and be the father your son needs him to be, not the other way around.

If it helps, an affinity for dolls, and girlie stuff does not make a person gay. What makes a person gay is a complex between biological responses, social influences, and psychological distortions. What that means is that when your husband insists that your son is not gay, he's really turning your son gay by default.

Most people are attracted to both sexes, which is probably why your husband had such a negative reaction. Yep, most people are biologically bi-sexual. That doesn't mean that most people are gay. Being gay isn't about liking girlie stuff, it's about finding other males attractive, which has nothing to do with girlie stuff. If your husband likes nice clothes, nice cars, nice shoes, he likes girlie stuff, but that doesn't mean he's gay.

Being gay, or lesbian, is being attracted to persons of the same sex and forming sexual relationships with persons of the same sex. It is a sexual orientation, not a character trait.

Would it help to toughen your son up a bit to avoid bullying? Some, but only in an appropriate way that respects who he is. If it helps, boys who like girlie stuff are more likely to have female friends and have earlier consistent relationships with people of the opposite sex, including sexual relationships. If your husband and yourself sexually matured early, your son is likely to be hetero, not gay not matter if he likes to play dress up or not.

Remember, men wear dresses too, they're called kilts, yukatas, robes, togas, etc. ad nauseum.

 

[Cosmos]

Allowing a child to play with opposite gender toys is as unlikely to encourage homosexuality anymore than a child playing with same sex toys ensures heterosexuality.:scratchhead:

 

[richie33]

All I care is that my boys are healthy and live happy lives. Now if they were to become NY Yankees fans then there would be a huge problem.
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[costa200]

Ok, guy talking here, your husband is right that he needs to toughen him up before school because if he goes there to play with dolls he will get crucified. Kids are horribly cruel.

But if he has natural tendencies to be gay, there isn't really anything to be done. He is or he isn't. The reason why your husband was so upset is that deep down he suspects that may be the case.

And i can assure you no heterosexual man wants a gay son. They may lie about it and say they don't mind. They will be, at best, ok with it. But when a guy dreams of his son he doesn't dream about someone who prefers Ken to Barbie.

Allowing a child to play with opposite gender toys is as unlikely to encourage homosexuality anymore than a child playing with same sex toys ensures heterosexuality.

That's right, sexuality isn't really about the toys you played with. But in school, a boy be damned if he brings dolls as favorite toy.

Most people are attracted to both sexes, which is probably why your husband had such a negative reaction. Yep, most people are biologically bi-sexual.

Prove it.

 

[walkingwounded]

Opening point: I do realize playing with dolls does not make him gay! I was not asking for opinions on whether my son *will* be gay because he likes girlie stuff. I have more than a reasonable education in psychology to comprehend that!

Rather I was asking if I was unreasonable to have verbalized that. My feelings were no. H is very much a mans man and I know he is thinking more about our son growing up than how he comes across.

He was very harsh with me and I was really cross, specially when he said he had told his mom who apparently was aghast and asked what on earth I had said that for!
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[MrK]

...to me it really is like saying someone has brown hair, or blue eyes. Like an observation if you like.

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You've got quite a few issues here:

1 - Your husband is out of touch with reality on the subject. he needs some education to be brought down to earth. It's his SON, for gods sake.

2 - YOU. Wonderful that you see the world as a purple rainbow where everything is hugs and kisses. But if you think sexual preference is as simple as hair color, your son is in for a world of hurt. Just look at the attitude of his FATHER, for Christ's sake. Multiply that by about 50 million, but then extrapolate for him being some other kids gay son, not theirs. He'll have to deal with bigots, confusion, harrasment, bullying, his WHOLE LIFE. If there is an indication he's gay, start reading. Start dealing with it and learning how to help him through it now. It won't be as simple as which shirt will make his blue eyes "pop".

3 - Both of you together. You're the "Odd Couple" of parents of a (potentially) gay kid. You need to get on the same page of parenting.

 

[walkingwounded]

Thanks for the input, just reading through it all.
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[betta]

And i can assure you no heterosexual man wants a gay son. They may lie about it and say they don't mind. They will be, at best, ok with it. But when a guy dreams of his son he doesn't dream about someone who prefers Ken to Barbie.

That statement is BS. Don't particularly care if my son's gay or hetero. All I care about is that he's able to have meaningful relationships with someone who won't treat him like crap. And I'm a guy. I owned my own construction business for 20 years. Worked 82 hours on average my second and third year. You don't get more "guy" than that.

Men who are "concerned" about their sons being gay are trying to live their lives for them, trying to have another adolescence, IMHO, and never grew up to begin with.

Adults face their fears and accept what life really is without being dismayed by it, even their own death. I think having a gay son is a damned sight better than being dead any day, or, for that matter, having a gay son in a good relationship is one heck of a lot better than having a hetero son in a bad relationship.

 

[Mavash.]

I have 3 kids - boy and 2 girls all close in ages so the girly stuff way outnumbers the boy stuff.

When my son was about 4 we all went for a walk and he wanted to push a stroller too with a doll in it. A PINK stroller!! My husband happened to come home and I thought he was going to pass out and I'll have to admit it made me a bit uncomfortable too. I didn't mind him playing with dolls INSIDE the house but in public? Not so much but I never once tried to stop him.

Long story short is my son is now 12.5 and he's ALL boy. He's also sensitive too. So you see there is no way to judge if someone is gay by the toys they play with or how sensitive they are. There is more to it than that.

Your husband is overreacting.

 

[betta]

Prove it.

Well, let me see. Kinsey's sex studies, including at least 2 books. Maslow's sex studies. Master's sex studies. Basically 80 years worth of psychosexual research.

 

[costa200]

That statement is BS. Don't particularly care if my son's gay or hetero. All I care about is that he's able to have meaningful relationships with someone who won't treat him like crap. And I'm a guy. I owned my own construction business for 20 years. Worked 82 hours on average my second and third year. You don't get more "guy" than that.

Men who are "concerned" about their sons being gay are trying to live their lives for them, trying to have another adolescence, IMHO, and never grew up to begin with.

Adults face their fears and accept what life really is without being dismayed by it, even their own death. I think having a gay son is a damned sight better than being dead any day, or, for that matter, having a gay son in a good relationship is one heck of a lot better than having a hetero son in a bad relationship.

Yes, thanks for being politically correct. And on and on about how manly you are... I guess we all needed to know that.

 

[costa200]

Well, let me see. Kinsey's sex studies, including at least 2 books. Maslow's sex studies. Master's sex studies. Basically 80 years worth of psychosexual research.

Lets keep it simple and tell me how did anyone prove that most people are sexually attracted to both sexes. What was the method and instruments used to evaluate it.

And Kinsey? Really? With his ridiculous scale of homo-hetero experiences? Talk about a guy with some agenda out to prove that he wasn't "weird"...

 

[Plan 9 from OS]

I can see your husband feeling hurt if you are predicting that your son is going to be homosexual as an adult. However, he overreacted. I think you need to be a more sensitive when it comes to talking about this. Remember, in your husband's eyes, his son is the one that will carry the family name on - specifically his part of the family. That may be factored in.

But playing with dolls in and of itself does not guarantee that the boy will be gay. I have 3 kids, the youngest 2 daughters. Neither of them played with dolls at all - both actually hate dolls. My oldest daughter is almost 12 and she is 100% girl. My younger daughter not only dislikes dolls but she likes to draw gory pictures of vampires, werewolves, vicious dogs, etc...(but amazingly she's very friendly and happy by nature!). Her favorite color is blue and when she was 3/4, she wanted spiderman underwear instead of girl undies. But I have no fear that she'll become a lesbian. She is still girlie, and the older my younger daughter gets (she's 6 now) the more girl I see coming out. My oldest (son) has always been a boy's boy.

 

[betta]

Lets keep it simple and tell me how did anyone prove that most people are sexually attracted to both sexes. What was the method and instruments used to evaluate it.

And Kinsey? Really? With his ridiculous scale of homo-hetero experiences? Talk about a guy with some agenda out to prove that he wasn't "weird"...

Not gonna do your work for you. If you really want to know, start reading. I've given you enough information to know where to start. The rest is up to you, because you obviously won't take my word for it, which is a good thing. Everyone has to come to their own conclusions about some things. It's good to be a little skeptical.

 

[IsGirl3]

Hi, I think your husband was WAY out of line here getting so that you felt that you had to apologize. We make observations about our kids all day long, whatever they do, throughout their lives. Some observations will be about the awesome things they do, or the friends they pick, or how they do in school, or how they behave, or deal with a situation, or navigate through life. Sometimes we're right, sometimes we're wrong, sometimes we just don't know what to think and speak aloud to our spouses and speculate on something.

For your husband to blow his cork because you made an observation, as distressing as it was to him, is just outright manipulation. I guess he wants you to shut your mouth any time you may think something that is politically incorrect to him.

I have 3 boys. My youngest is 8. My husband and I have speculated for years that he might be gay. Who knows - he's only 8, but my husband has a brother who is gay and thinks our son exhibits a similar personality and likes/dislilkes as his brother. We openly talk about it the few times a year my son does seem like he might be gay. We think life is more challenging for a gay person. My brother-in-law and his partner want a kid, and that's not so easy.

But to get angry at you for this thought entering your head - that's just manipulative and bullying. We're unsuccessfully trying to get my son interested in sports, although neither of us think it will make a difference, because we think team sports is good for girls and boys, but he'd rather hang out with me and bake.

 

[costa200]

Not gonna do your work for you. If you really want to know, start reading. I've given you enough information to know where to start. The rest is up to you, because you obviously won't take my word for it, which is a good thing. Everyone has to come to their own conclusions about some things. It's good to be a little skeptical.

well ahead of you mate. I know those works and found them to be good examples on why psychology is still seen as a lesser science. Manipulative subjective bush!t that would never pass as scientific in any other body of science.

To classify most humans as bisexual (that they don't actually do, just give you different scales of continuous of human sexuality, which in fact makes the word bisexual meaningless) is just outright ridiculous. How many young boys will masturbate to the mental pictures of other boys? "most"? Are you serious?

 

[Rob774]

I see something else going on here. See your husband overacted.. cause you said aloud what he was already thinking... thus confirming his own fears. And that's too overwhelming to face right now.

Above someone mentioned, that no man wants their son to be gay, i won't take that hard of a stance, but i will say that given a choice... the majority of heterosexual men would PREFER... that their son's not be gay. Hopefully that comes off a little bit better. My son is 6, and i've had some concerns. He has an older sister, and has often indulged in her "girly" games. But at the same time, he's been a chick magnet since he was a baby, and has openly flirted with older, grown women when we are in public. If i was a single man, he could of easily open up a door for me to hit on a pretty woman. But at the end of the day, whatever he turns up as... i, as well as others who are close to him will love him as much the same.

 

[Starstarfish]

Personally, I find the most bothersome part about this whole thing the whole "a man's son" comment - um, isn't every boy some man's son? So - if it does turn out that your son is gay, will it be one of those things where now he's "your son" rather than "our son?"

Whether or not you verbalize the reality, it is indeed a reality that your son (or any child for that matter) might indeed be homosexual when they get older. And - I'd say that your husband's reaction needs to be discussed -between the two of you, and then perhaps in some kind of counseling. You being more sensitive about bringing this up, or never bringing it up again won't make the possibility any less true - so this should be addressed.

And - yes, just because you play with "girly" things doesn't automatically make you gay - it just might mean your personality isn't going to develop into some mega-Alpha that needs to be all man all the time. Also - perhaps if more male children weren't taught that playing with dolls (AKA playing in a parental role) or playing things like - cooking or house, weren't "unmanly" and "for girls" you might have a lot less relationship problems like the ones posted all over TAM about husbands who have no or begrudging interest in helping with the house or the children.

It is suspected and has been studied that the reason that girls develop less scientific and mathematical ability or interest is because they aren't given toys that develop those interests/skills when they are young - erector sets, rock tumblers, etc. So this whole "that's for boys" and "that's for girls" mentality, can indeed, negatively effect children's development.

Also - PS, no matter what, other kids will pick on you in school no matter what your deal is. They will always find something to pick on you about - unless you are in the popular Alpha clique - and have the perfect body proportions, wardrobe, and accessories. You should teach your kids how to deal with bullies, not how to constantly change who they are to avoid being bullied - the problem isn't with them, it's with others.