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Sure no woman or man appreciates a person who is indecisive and "weak". But WTF is up with this Alpha BS?

Everywhere on TAM and afew other places people spouting the Alpha doctrine.
I did not want to marry another Father. I thought marriage was a partnership.

Why do men automatically jump to the assumption; "my wife seems to have lost respect for me, I better take the reins!"
Instead of investigating why to respect or admiration is gone.
Il
Now to clarify, most us will agree that indecisiveness is a trait we all dislike, however does my respect diminish because my husband can't decide on what dinner he would prefer? No

Yeah my thoughts are jumbled. If a woman fell in love with a man, and that man through years of comfort has a change of trait or personality it's a different matter all together, but hell they fell in love for a reason.
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It's really simple: men, collectively, will do whatever it takes to get sex. The way that men (in general) behave towards women is a reflection of what it takes to get sex. If rescuing stray puppies and helping around the house got men sex they would do that, but it doesn't. The Coping with Infidelity section is full of beta men who have been "perfect" husbands writing about finding their wives in bed with unemployed men/drug addicts who are all alpha.

It's nice that you're an exception to the rule but statistical studies have shown that husbands who help around the house and are in "equal partnership" marriages have the least sex of all men. Alpha/unstable men get the most sex.

I was kind of like this is in college. I was even a member of a feminist organization on campus. I remember the girls talking about how terrible "frat culture" was but guess who these feminists were partying with on weekends?
 

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Sure no woman or man appreciates a person who is indecisive and "weak". But WTF is up with this Alpha BS?

Everywhere on TAM and afew other places people spouting the Alpha doctrine.
I did not want to marry another Father. I thought marriage was a partnership.

Why do men automatically jump to the assumption; "my wife seems to have lost respect for me, I better take the reins!"
Instead of investigating why to respect or admiration is gone.
Il
Now to clarify, most us will agree that indecisiveness is a trait we all dislike, however does my respect diminish because my husband can't decide on what dinner he would prefer? No

Yeah my thoughts are jumbled. If a woman fell in love with a man, and that man through years of comfort has a change of trait or personality it's a different matter all together, but hell they fell in love for a reason.
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Part of the "alpha talk" (at least from my perspective) is getting back to those traits that attracted your spouse (usually wife) in the first place. I think too often in marriage both sexes have this idea that men should become more domestic and more accomadating. While this is true on one level, it can easily become too much, where the man effectively becomes a yes man for every decision by his wife. He can loose the traits that made him attractive in an effort to be what he thinks he is supposed to be and his wife wants.

No one wants someone with 100% alpha traits in a long term relationship. What they really want is a balance, with some alpha traits (from enforcing their boundaries to being passionate about an activity to taking care of their crap) and some beta traits (missing the game to take your wife to the theater to washing laundry to taking care of her when she is sick). I don't worry about if I an alpha, beta, omega, whatever. What I do worry about is whether I am working on being the type of man that I want to be and whether I am being the husband that my wife really needs. For me personnally, that was about focusing more on some of my alpha traits as I had gotten off the road I wanted to travel.

While I did laugh at your dinner example, I do think that it is an important one. For the man who has lost his weigh, this is a small first step toward getting back on the road. Much like the guy who is 100 lbs overweight does not start out by running a marathon, the guy who has become the yes man is not going to start by discussing their work/life balance. So dinner is a good first step that start the process of getting back to balance.

Using your reigns analogy, it is not necessarily about taking back the reigns (though for some couples that may well be the best result), but about taking your turn at the reigns.
 

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Agree, this whole Alpha/Beta thing originated with monkeys, lions and tigers. We (homo sapiens) have opposable thumbs and bigger brains. I’m more concerned about “maning-up” and doing the right thing as a father, husband and leader of my family and community.
 

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Much of this Alpha/Beta stuff makes me rather nauseated. Many of its ideas and priciples are stereotypical and misguided IMO and they should be viewed as offensive to females and males a like.

I had a brilliant man once tell me that the feminist idea of a 50/50 relationship was flawed and in his opinion a major factor of the increased divorce rate. As a pretty strong, opinionated female I probed him further, prepared my agruments and waited for the debate to begin.

He didn't reference gender roles, stereortypes, sociology or psychology, his reponse was simply....Human Need and Math.

HIS THEORY:
If two parties are one half of a whole (50/50 split) the math says both parties must function at 100% all the time, in order for the Whole to function as a Whole and not have any deficits and in the Human World this is impossible.

We are human, and we all know that is impossible to give 100% of ourselves all the time. We get sick, have fears, bend under pressure and stress, etc etc and are imperfect by design (whether male or female).

It was this man's opinion that a healthy, functional relationship is one that is either a 60/40 or 70/30 split (depending on what life struggles the couple are facing at that particular time) A healthy relationship is capable of seeing where there is a requirement for extra effort and what spouse is in need of that extra effort. Hence the role of Supporter/Leader/Nurturer (whatever word defines it for whatever particular situation at the time) flip flops between spouses.

His view stuck with me! My husband and I have functioned this way for much of our marriage. For example, I work shift and know he will have a wonderful meal on the table when I get home, and that laundry will be done, and that our kids are happy etc. Does he do this every day? No. Is it my expectation of him? No. Does he do it to garner favour with me? No.
Normally do I pick up more tasks and errands at home? Yes. I do this because I work part-time. Is this his expectation of me? No.
Are any of our tasks or duties as adults/parents defined by gender roles? Not that I can tell. I can do home DIY projects and he can bake a cake (and I can attest that it is incredibly SEXY!).
We both do things in this manner because there is a NEED and often only one of us available to fill the Need. So in our relationship the role and degree of responsibilty flip flops!! 70/30! It is brilliant.

We have our problems. I have a big need he that due to his own life experiences and fears he can not seem to meet (it is a work in progress and MC is helping) but I can attest that household duties and gender role reversals have NOT deprived my husband from having a healthy sex life and further to this our household environment is free from endless, ridiculous, nagging and fighting. There is lots of spare time and play time for us as a family. I would not have it any another way.
Sometimes for change to occur some of us need to be given permission and support that our ideas, thoughts and feelings are valid. For the doormat male, I am sure the ALPHA "mantra" is invaluable and empowering, but I wrestle with the stamina and speed of it's "legend", when by all rights evolution and education should have pegged the Alpha/Beta philosophy as outdated
 

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Agree, this whole Alpha/Beta thing originated with monkeys, lions and tigers. We (homo sapiens) have opposable thumbs and bigger brains. I’m more concerned about “maning-up” and doing the right thing as a father, husband and leader of my family and community.
Actually, it looks like you are off to a great start in defining what Alpha actually means. And don't kid yourself. As much as modern man likes to think that we have surpassed the baser underpinnings of our nature, all of our latte-sipping at Starbucks goes out the window when compared to our natural instincts. You don't just escape a couple of million years worth of evolution and biology because we now use iPhones.
For many people, the whole Alpha/Beta conversation brings to mind two diametrically opposed images. 1) The hyper, testosterone flooded, uber macho type that is basically an azzhole and 2) The mild, meek pleaser who does whatever it takes to avoid conflict by being subserviant to others. Neither of these really represent the concept. I think the idea of Alpha/Beta is misconstrued (no matter how you feel about it) and many times those that believe in the concepts are a bit too zealous in their description and application, thereby turning other people off of the concept.
 

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I'm a big believer in the "alpha/beta thing"...though I've never called it that until coming to this forum...

For me it's simply: Gender Roles. and acknowledging that:

They exist. They're important. And people need to know their role.

I think political correctness and feminism made everyone "ashamed" to admit that:

men like women who act like women

and

women like men who act like men.

And when these roles get skewed and blurred....ATTRACTION takes a cliff dive.

I imagine all of the alpha/beta books are off-putting to read.

They distill this down to a playbook...which makes it seem like a game...and they probably do suggest that guys micromanage their "male behavior" to an extreme that isn't necessary (is that where your dinner reference came from?)

And the things is...I'm not Betty Crocker...for me, this is just boils down to science...and obeying the laws of nature.

Oh and loss of RESPECT is HUGE HUGE HUGE in marriages (especially women losing respect for their husbands)...and most of this does come back to gender roles.

Now if you can make a good case against them...I'd be very interested in reading it...(but I think you'll be hard pressed to so)
 

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Sure no woman or man appreciates a person who is indecisive and "weak". But WTF is up with this Alpha BS?

Everywhere on TAM and afew other places people spouting the Alpha doctrine.
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:iagree:

:rofl: at least I'm not alone! :rofl:
 

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Actually, it looks like you are off to a great start in defining what Alpha actually means. And don't kid yourself. As much as modern man likes to think that we have surpassed the baser underpinnings of our nature, all of our latte-sipping at Starbucks goes out the window when compared to our natural instincts. You don't just escape a couple of million years worth of evolution and biology because we now use iPhones.
For many people, the whole Alpha/Beta conversation brings to mind two diametrically opposed images. 1) The hyper, testosterone flooded, uber macho type that is basically an azzhole and 2) The mild, meek pleaser who does whatever it takes to avoid conflict by being subserviant to others. Neither of these really represent the concept. I think the idea of Alpha/Beta is misconstrued (no matter how you feel about it) and many times those that believe in the concepts are a bit too zealous in their description and application, thereby turning other people off of the concept.
This is a large part of the reason I have started referring to alpha and beta traits, as opposed to alpha and beta people. There are very few truly alpha or beta people. Rather, people are a mix of traits.

Balancing those traits, coupled with being true to the type of person that you want to be and enforcing your boundaries should be the goal.
 

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I'm a big believer in the "alpha/beta thing"...though I've never called it that until coming to this forum...

For me it's simply: Gender Roles. and acknowledging that:

They exist. They're important. And people need to know their role.

I think political correctness and feminism made everyone "ashamed" to admit that:

men like women who act like women

and

women like men who act like men.

And when these roles get skewed and blurred....ATTRACTION takes a cliff dive.

I imagine all of the alpha/beta books are off-putting to read.

They distill this down to a playbook...which makes it seem like a game...and they probably do suggest that guys micromanage their "male behavior" to an extreme that isn't necessary (is that where your dinner reference came from?)

And the things is...I'm not Betty Crocker...for me, this is just boils down to science...and obeying the laws of nature.

Oh and loss of RESPECT is HUGE HUGE HUGE in marriages (especially women losing respect for their husbands)...and most of this does come back to gender roles.

Now if you can make a good case against them...I'd be very interested in reading it...(but I think you'll be hard pressed to so)
No one said you had to be Betty Crocker and I agree that to simplify the relationships between men and women it comes down to roles....whether the decision of who's role is who's is totally dependent on Gender I disagree. I think the decision should be based on skill, comfort, ability and need, save for one very distinct and separate issue and that is protection.

Every woman who is involved with a man needs to know that, that man has her back, will protect her at all costs, will defend her honour, support her and put her above all others. Anything shy of it, a woman will not view her husband as Safe, there is limited trust and road blocks to real intimacy.
Proof of whether a man has the ability to Protect his partner is not diminished by whether the man changes dispers or bakes a cake. The proof comes from how a husband talks about his wife in public, how the couple enters a room together, whether the husband leaves himself open to the attentions of other women, and what boundaries he is willing to put between himself, his wife and the outside world.

Far too many threads on TAM, have posts that reference the sexual attraction that occurs for a woman when she has a buff, fit, "appealing to other women" husband. Many men on this forum and others, have adopted a sterotypical "ideal" of what is appealing to a woman and have over simplified "what women want" on adolescent principles.
Becoming fit and hanging with the boys may very well stroke ones ego, make you healthier, happier and may finally get you laid by your wife. Your wife may draw closer to you, out of jealousy, a challenge, and the primal instincts to be appealing to her newly physically changed spouse, but I think that motivation is short lived and is soon replaced by fear. Fear that you might be stolen and she might be replaced. Fear=Not Safe=No Intimacy.
Most women got over chasing after the Jock in highschool, for this very reason.
Primal instincts only go so far, there must be some sort a balance.

Please no bashing because of the ego stroking comment...both males and females need their egos stroked every once in awhile. I was not suggesting it was a bad thing.
 

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It's really simple: men, collectively, will do whatever it takes to get sex. The way that men (in general) behave towards women is a reflection of what it takes to get sex. If rescuing stray puppies and helping around the house got men sex they would do that, but it doesn't. The Coping with Infidelity section is full of beta men who have been "perfect" husbands writing about finding their wives in bed with unemployed men/drug addicts who are all alpha.
Yep yep you can spout all day long about how BS all this alpha/beta sh1t is than you come home one day to see your wife screwing a complete stranger and it all sorta starts to make a lot of sense...
 

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The thing that bothers me so much about the Alpha / Beta talk is how positively Praised ALPHA is all over the internet....thanks to the Pick up Artists... and when one hears Beta...it is a slam word, a degrading ugly thing that men need to run from -otherwise Doormat becomes your middle name.... it is immediately associated with weakness, physical un-attractiveness, clingyness and being less of a man.

Even the ALpha A$$ holes get more Respect...by men & women - what is wrong with us?

Then some of the posts I've caught on here....time & time again, by men mostly.. but women too....insinuating that such men are superior ... he can have any woman he chooses, they are throwing themselves at him... and the woman who wins such a superior Alpha at the top of his game.... well.....she is of the highest value of course .... after all...

Betas only get the left overs when the Alphas are done with them. Poor Beta males.

This sort of talk rubs me the wrong way very badly. I do not find men tipped more Alpha any superior than Men tipped more Beta... Even if women are not throwing themselves at such a man (a lot of us women don't know what is good for us anyway).... this in no way lowers his value as a husband or what he brings to that relationship.

How many of us are truly balanced in all things? I'm not. I could stand to have more patience - at times.

Tall Average Guy said: This is a large part of the reason I have started referring to alpha and beta traits, as opposed to alpha and beta people. There are very few truly alpha or beta people. Rather, people are a mix of traits.

Balancing those traits, coupled with being true to the type of person that you want to be and enforcing your boundaries should be the goal.
And there is nothing wrong with talking about these TRAITS...

Each trait has it's GOOD and it's BAD....

Good ALpha =
Make no mistake: the world needs alpha males. When used appropriately, their courage, confidence, tireless energy, and fighting spirit make them natural leaders in competitive situations.
Bad Alpha =
The trouble comes when they use their exceptional strengths inappropriately or carry them to such extremes that they turn into tragic flaws: their confidence becomes arrogance, their toughness becomes belligerence, and their competitiveness becomes a fight to the death in which even teammates are seen as rivals that have to be vanquished. Unfortunately for many alpha males, what works in a jungle or on a battlefield - or during a genuine crisis - is not always appropriate in today's business environment. Nowadays, leaders are expected to do more than command and control; they're called upon to motivate, inspire, teach, communicate, and model integrity and personal growth. Such skills do not come naturally to most alpha males, and those who fail to develop them are increasingly out of place.
 

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Stroking egos is a great thing. It keeps the sexy feelings flowing, no? Why wouldn't I stroke my husband's ego? He stroke's mine when he comments on my butt or like yesterday, saying, "Whoa! You did all this in the house AND took care of the puppy? I'm impressed. dang." Yea. that felt good. I smiled and liked his little stroking of my ego.

A mix is good. I have learned a TON of this in the last 4 days since getting a puppy. I never realized how much of a pack our family truly is. Our older dog (6 year old lab) has put the puppy in her place...and they both listen to me. However, when H is in the house, they DO NOT eff around. At all. It's amazing. They know, as dogs, that he is the big cheese. I hadn't noticed it until these last few days. It's kinda cool. I like it. He's not a strict Alpha....no. But he is the strong, quiet type. Takes no crap, gives no crap. It's a good mix.
 

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They know, as dogs, that he is the big cheese. I hadn't noticed it until these last few days. It's kinda cool. I like it. He's not a strict Alpha....no. But he is the strong, quiet type. Takes no crap, gives no crap. It's a good mix.
Instinct. Don't fight it...find a way to channel it for good.
 
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No one said you had to be Betty Crocker and I agree that to simplify the relationships between men and women it comes down to roles....whether the decision of who's role is who's is totally dependent on Gender I disagree. I think the decision should be based on skill, comfort, ability and need, save for one very distinct and separate issue and that is protection.


Perhaps "gender roles" is too restrictive a term for what I'm referring to...because that term does imply tasks and jobs

And I completely agree that traditional male and female life tasks may be swapped without this hurting a marriage (although...I will say...this is not always the case)

Maybe "masculinity" and "femininity" would be better terms...and the issue is:

Who is wearing what 'energy' in your home?

"Every woman who is involved with a man needs to know that, that man has her back, will protect her at all costs, will defend her honor, support her and put her above all others. Anything shy of it, a woman will not view her husband as Safe, there is limited trust and road blocks to real intimate"


Agree...but I think you've got half the story here. Yes, a woman needs to know that her husband will be her protector. But there's more too it than that... subconsciously she needs to believe that he actually CAN support and protect her.

And her confidence in his ability to "be the man" comes from his masculinity

A husband who constantly cowers and capitulates to his wife is not masculine

A husband who washes dishes in the hope of getting sex is not masculine.

It kills respect and attraction


Works the other way too:

For example,

women who aggressively chase and persue their husbands sexually...often find themselves rejected...because they've assumed the "masculine" energy and that's unattractive

But there's no prototypical masculine male and feminine female:

A guy could be a star quarterback...or a librarian

He could be loud or quiet

Height and size don't make a bit of difference

This is something that comes from within...not without

Like I said, it's an energy...it's subtle...hard to see...really just felt...

These books on alpha/beta stuff probably take it the extreme. I admit, I find it hard to "read" about too...

It's easier when men and women just have a natural sense of the yin/yang dynamic in their relationship

But this is simply not the case in many marriages today...and that's probably why you see reactionary and extreme books trying to tip the scale back to a balance again
 

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It's easier when men and women just have a natural sense of the yin/yang dynamic in their relationship
I'm not into Eastern theology or beliefs but I believe that the concept you are describing is dead on.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Still think its BS men of the forum.
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Women like to talk about things that should work. Men just like stuff that really works.

Don't get caught up in the language. Being Alpha just means you have what it takes to make women giggle like idiots and enhance their desire for you. It doesn't matter one bit if it fits your notion of how men-women dynamics should be.

The evidence is that being confident and strong brings the goods. All else is irrelevant. It's a fact that women feel attracted to that kind of men.

Look at your average womanly erotic fantasy. Who are those guys? Do they spend time doing the dishes? Do you get wet when they do laundry? Do those suckers offer you roses and poems?

No they don't. They are handsome rogues. They are almost unreachable. They are aware of their own charms. They don't hesitate in using their power to sway you off your feet. They command respect and exhale virility. And you love them for it.

Alpha, beta, are just words. A code that, when understood, can make guys who don't naturally exhibit those traits to be more successful with women. Their own wives even.
 

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Nothing better than wife Porn:

Hubs cleaning while shirtless...and cute jeans. helll yea.
 
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